Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alexandros Lordos]

Now you tell me what kind of bizonality we are going to have if half the GC refugees return and the rest exchange their properties.In my opinion bizonality is an impossibility.

MicAtCyp,

I am not sure I agree with your maths. Let's not forget that half the refugees will already be returning under GC administration through territorial adjustment, with full restitution of their property, and out of the remaining half, which is, say, 90.000, about half, say 45.000, will choose to return to the north under TCCS administration.

So, how does having 45.000 GCs in the north make bizonality an impossibility, when the TCs (+settlers who will be allowed to stay under a fairer deal than the Annan Plan) are 130.000+ ?

[Alexandros Lordos]

Interestingly, however, the ruling will attract a large number of claims from Turkish Cypiots who have equal claims and equal rights, on the grounds that a southern court, assuming that they could get there, is no more impartial than the TRNC property commission. So Turkey will find that it is standing in the dock next to Greek Cyprus — a fascinatingn prospect given that this means that the cases between 1963 and 1974
will be aired at the same time, as those which refer to the 1974 Turkish intervention.

At the moment there aren’t any TC applications in the ECHR, nor in any court in the RoCy.
Do you know why?
Your parallelism is not quite accurate.

Kifeas,

I believe the simple answer to "why" is simply that TCs have not been aware up to now of the possibilities that the international system of justice offers them. They have just assumed in the past that the system is stacked up against them and that Turkey's strength is their only protection (TC friends, please correct me if I am wrong).

Nowadays, TCs are beginning to realise what legal rights they have, and we will indeed be seeing more lawsuits by TCs against the RoC in the future. Personally, I would consider this a positive development, because it will put pressure on the RoC and motivate it to work for a solution (the same way the Titina case motivated Turkey), but also because we will all, GC and TC, begin to talk the same language of human rights.

From a legal point of view, I don't think the RoC can be justified for denying use of TC property by its rightful owners. Such action can only be justified politically, but not legally. So TCs have every right to take the RoC to court, just as we have every right to take Turkey to court.

[Kifeas]

I believe the simple answer to "why" is simply that TCs have not been aware up to now of the possibilities that the international system of justice offers them. They have just assumed in the past that the system is stacked up against them and that Turkey's strength is their only protection (TC friends, please correct me if I am wrong).

Actually it is a bit complicated for Turkish Cypriots who moved north, primarily because most of them (the vast majority) have exchanged their south property titles deeds with points that were given to them by the regime. Upon exchanging them they all signed agreements with Denktash that they are no longer the owners of their properties in the south but instead the "TRNC" which has the right to exchange them in a global fashion upon reaching a political agreement with GCs. Furthermore, they agreed, and here is the biggest obstacle for them, that if they sell any of these properties in the south, they will loose any (or all) of the GC properties they were given in the north. Of course, technically these agreements are illegal. However, these people cannot so easily refuse to abide by these agreements because they continue to live under the authority of the TRNC and have also made investments or sold further down a lot of properties that were given to them through these agreements.

However, it is more simple for people that left out of Cyprus (emigrated) and didn’t enter into any such agreements with Denktash, to claim their properties in the south and consequently apply to courts against RoCy.

[Kifeas]

So, how does having 45.000 GCs in the north make bizonality an impossibility, when the TCs (+settlers who will be allowed to stay under a fairer deal than the Annan Plan) are 130.000+ ?

Alexandros,
Actually under a fairer deal scenario that you are projecting, TCs + settlers are expected not to be less than 150,000. They would have been around 170-180 under the existing A-plan; therefore I do not think they will drop so dramatically. Do not forget that a number of settlers were calculated, because of marriages, as TCs, raising the number of TCs up to about 115,000. In addition to that around 60-70 thousand would have stayed. (a list of 45,000 thousand, plus some others, plus an extra 5% of the total population.)

[Kifeas]

*So how will we solve the properties issue in this situation? There are at least 120.000 TC refugees and some 40.000 non-refugee TCs(young generation who was given state land in North) who believe that they have the right to exchange the properties they occupy with the ones they left in South according to the ratified agreements. And TC leadership believe that it has the right to exchange the State land it occupies in the North with the one it owns in South.

First you said that there are 120,000 TC refuges. Then you came later with a different estimation as below, which reduces the number to 80,000.

*Do you think that only 55.000 TCs were inhabiting in South pre-75. First of all total population of TC community was 118.000 in 1973. According to Tassos, only %3.6 of occupied belong to TCs in North. This means 2/3 of TC properties are in South. 2/3 of 118.000 = 80.000

I do not know what Tassos said but the data from the land registry shows that the TC properties in the occupied areas were about the same with those in the non-occupied area. In the north TC had 531 sq. kms of land, 29 sq. Kms in the buffer zone and 553 sq. kms in the south. The 531 sq.Kms of TC property in the north are about 16.5% of the total occupied area which is 3,224 sq. kms, and represent 47% of all TC property in Cyprus. The other 49% was in the south and the rest (4%) in the buffer zone or British bases.

*55.000 TCs were the ones who couldn't flee to North during 15th of July to mid-1975. They were mostly comprise of women, old TCs, handicapped TCs and children. Most of the adults who were able to fight against GC irregulars, National Guard and Eldik fighting in different areas of Cyprus. On 16th of August they all met and joined the Turkish army on Green-line. Moreover many TCs fled South to North between 15th of July to 16th of August. Add enclaved TC refugees to this number, it makes no less than 80.000 total TC refugees.

If we take, as you suggested, the land distribution as a basis (not an accurate method,) then perhaps 49% of these 118,000 TC are originating from the south. That makes the total population of those that left from south to north (refugees) about 58,000, say 60,000. However you have to subtract from this number, those who permanently emigrated from Cyprus after 1974, in order to find the accurate number of TC refugees currently living in the north and consequently use GC properties. Therefore your 120,000 or even the 80,000 that you gave later are definately not accurate, in view of the fact that the total TC population (refuges and non refugees) doesn’t exceed perhaps the 100-110 thousands. And please do not dispute this figure because there are TC and international sources that even bring them down to as low as 90,000.

Now think about it and give me a more logical number of TC refugees, so that I can continue further with the rest of your questions.

[insan]

First you said that there are 120,000 TC refuges. Then you came later with a different estimation as below, which reduces the number to 80,000.

It is clear that 80.000 is the number of TC refugees in 1974. In 30 years, some in 40 years multiplied because of the population growth. There's no need to reply rest of your post because it is obvious that it's a waste of time for me to discuss anything with people have a mentality like yours. I just wanted to say my last words. That's all.

Last good bye!

[Kifeas]

Last good bye!

Good bye and good luck!

[-mikkie2-]

So by Insans logic, it will be assumed that the number of GC refugees will have increased by about 60-70000 since 1974! The accepted figure for GC refugees is around the 160K mark so that would mean that there are 220K-230K refugees.

Anyway, I think Insan needs to cool himself down. He will be back in the forum soon enough!

[Alexandros Lordos]

Insan,

The TC's were FOOLED by your regime (meaning Denktas and Turkey)! Can't you see this? The effect of your'mis-interpretation' of these agreements has led Turkey and continues to lead Turkey down a path which she will ultimately regret in my opinion.

Just as the 'mis-interpretation' of the Annan plan seems to give some people the excuse to develop GC land, with the blessings of Mr Talat, the same happened with the previous agreements.

Even the ECHR has said that the Anann plan is null and void! You cannot even use this as an excuse.

The ONLY way to solve this problem is to bring about a political solution and to let refughees have the CHOICE to return to their properties or not. Once that is established then the issue of exchange or compensation can then be assessed.

It's GC community who misinformed and misguided about those agreements. The GC leadership delude its peaople with lies and propaganda. How one could interprete those agreements return of all GC and TC refugees to their properties. How it could be interpreted those agreements nullification of treaty of guarantee and treaty of alliance; i.e withdrawal of all turkish troops. It is obvious who "misinterpreted" those agreements.

Well, I'd like to thank Insan for posting the link to the High Level Agreements, because reading them again was an eye-opener.

The 1977 Makarios-Denktash agreement talks explicitly about how we will go about forming a bizonal-bicommunal Federation. It acknowledges that the issue of property rights has to be seen in the light of the bizonal system, and also with a view to the practical difficulties of the TC community. This the way was opened for a future consideration of property exchange (word underlined for obvious reasons), while leaving the door open for other alternatives as well - partial restitution, long term leasing etc.

The 1979 Kyprianou-Denktash agreement, in contrast, is a complete turn-around. The word "federation" is not mentioned even once. "The application of full human rights", replaces the earlier, more flexible view on property related issues. The only two issues to be discussed are "the constitutional aspect" and "territorial arrangements" - not property, which presumably becomes non-negotiable. Though the 1979 agreement presumes to re-affirm the 1977 agreement, in spirit it is completely different. Whereas the 1977 agreement is the framework for a bizonal-bicommunal federation, the 1979 agreement is the framework for a ... "european solution"!

No wonder we are all so confused about what is happening

Kyprianou clearly went back on what Makarios had agreed. In fact, I am very surprised that Denktash agreed to sign the 1979 agreement, it was a big blunder on his behalf, I would say he was tricked by Kyprianou ...

The 1979 agreement marked the beginning of the GC "backlash" against Bizonal Bicommunal Federation as agreed in 1977. Most of the "Kyprianou 80s", were about overcoming what was originally agreed, by focusing on "human rights" etc. in such a way as to destroy the foundations of a possible federal solution. This mentality still exists today, and I personally strongly disagree with it.

I think Denktash was a much more reasonable person in the 70s than what he later became. After he realised that Kyprianou tricked him, he began to become intransigent himself, leading to 1983 and "the declaration of independence" - largely in retaliation to Kyprianou's intransigence.

So much time has been wasted already, let us not waste any more ...

[metecyp]

So much time has been wasted already, let us not waste any more ...

Exactly. So why don't GCs tells us what kind of a federation they're ready to discuss? This is what holding us back right now, correct? It's not Denktash, it's not the Turkish side, it's the GC side that's blocking the progress at the moment.