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European court rules Greek Cypriot case admissible

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Kifeas » Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:08 pm

garbitsch wrote:That's too much! How can a human being claim that the houses that one community had were built with mud??????? God, I am asking my T.Cs friends to help me with this, cause I have no more intention to make a discussion with these people. I am sorry but I cannot handle it!


Garbitch,
It is not true that all or most TC houses were made out of mud, as much as it is not true what some TCs claim, that GCs demolished most of their (TC) houses and villages in the south.
Yes, some houses were built out of mud and consequently they were demolished for general safety reasons. This was usually the case in some remote mountain TC villages that were abandoned since 1963 or even earlier and consequently they remained without maintenance for many years. In the Town of Pafos and within the TC quarter no house was demolished, although some of them were made out of stones and mud roof. Such houses need annual maintenance in order to remain in place because they erode with rain. Such houses exist also in many GC mountain villages.
Last edited by Kifeas on Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Viewpoint » Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:33 pm

Kifeas
It is not true that all or most TC houses were made out of mud, as much as it is not true what some TCs claim, that GCs demolished most of their (TC) houses and villages in the south.


Just to clarify a point my family had 2 houses in a village near Limassol both were fairly new and built out of bricks/concrete but both were demolished after 1974.
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Postby metecyp » Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:40 pm

Kifeas wrote:Yes, some houses were built out of mud and consequently they were demolished for general safety reasons. This was usually the case in some remote mountain TC villages that were abandoned since 1963 or even earlier and consequently they remained without maintenance for many years.

My grandfather used to own 2 flats...not mud or any crap like that. They were both new and they were in Nicosia, close to Ledra Street. He couldn't access them after 1963 and when my uncle went to see them after borders opened, he couldn't find anything...they were demolished. Should I start calling you guys thieves, destroyers??
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Postby brother » Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:44 pm

Unfortunately the same goes for my grand parents, parents and other family homes, all demolished and i remember them and they were some of the best buildings not mud huts.
Also may i add that the GC admin for years now have chosen to build roads almost always through TC lands....why? recently it came to light that a TC who was selling his land in the south was stopped when the GC admin decided to take action and make it into a park....why?
Many tc investigate these claims and find that the GC admin for years now has always chosen to use tc lands for magority of projects, and we all know why....Don't ask me to prove it but i ASK YOU TO DIS-PROVE IT.
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Postby Kifeas » Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:18 pm

brother wrote:Unfortunately the same goes for my grand parents, parents and other family homes, all demolished and i remember them and they were some of the best buildings not mud huts.


Which area is this brother?

brother wrote:Also may i add that the GC admin for years now have chosen to build roads almost always through TC lands....why?


Not almost always through TC lands. A highway from Pafos to Limassol is impossible to pass from TC land only. This is not feasible unless we assume (something completely stupid,) that all TC properties were aligned along the same nearly straight-line form Pafos until Limassol. This is an obvious exaggeration.
However I will not dispute that proportionately perhaps more TC land was utilised for public projects than GC land. I.e, if the TC private land in the free areas is 10% of the total area and the GC private land was 62%, and if we assume that 10 sq. Kms of private land were utilised for such projects, perhaps 1/3 of this was taken from TC land and 2/3 from GC land. There are reasons for that Brother, not that I necessarily agree with them.

The simplest reason is that when the government decides to make a public project and consequently expropriate land, there are a lot of disputes, objections and legal actions by the affected citizens that almost always end up causing many delays in the implementation of the project. In the case of TC properties, the owners are not there (present) to challenge the decisions of the government and therefore it is more convenient to use, when it is possible, TC land in order to forward the project more quickly. It only requires an announcement in the official gazette, which most likely TCs will not notice and then the expropriation is legally validated.

However, I was reading some statistics about some time ago (perhaps a year or so,) that only 1.2% of all the private TC properties were used for such purposes. If we take into consideration that the total area of TC private properties in the south is about 553 sq. kms, the 1.2% will be equal to 6.64 sq. Kms or about 4,960 donums or 6.63 million square meters of land, a figure that seems quite logical since the government could build a very huge amount of projects in such area. Even if we assume that each donum is valued at let’s say 20,000 on the average (one has to consider that within this land there will also be a lot agricultural land, which is valued between 5-10,000 pounds,) Then we are talking for about 100 million Cyprus pounds. This figure is well within the capacity of the RoCy in order to compensate the TC owners when it will be required to do so. Even if this figure is doubled it will still be well within the governments ability to do so. TC should not be worried for such a thing as there is no way, once a solution is achieved, to ever loose there money.

To the contrary, GCs are truly and rightfully concerned with the sale of their private land in the north, which in some areas, coincidentally the most expensive ones like Kyrenia, has reached, as it seems to most of us, nearly 50% of it. Lapithos is a typical example were no GC will manage to take even the 1/3 that A-plan provided, unless it is some worthless peace of land that has no potential for investment in which case it will not worth a lot either. A lot of this land has be given to settlers or TC who do not have an equivalent in value land in the south, which in their Turn have sold them to the developers who build houses for foreigners. Now, if the initial sellers have no money or equivalent property to exchange, who will compensate the GCs? Especially if those initial sellers decide to run away, like most settlers will presumably choose to do.

Conclusion. If TCs, from a scale of 1 to 10, are entitled to worry 1 degree then GCs are entitled to worry 10 degrees.

brother wrote:recently it came to light that a TC who was selling his land in the south was stopped when the GC admin decided to take action and make it into a park....why?


If he was ever living in the north and coincidentally or presumably was or could have been given GC land in the north, which he either sold or could /can sell any time, then he was rightfully stopped from selling his land in the south. I respect TCs rights but under the circumstances we live for these last 30 years, there is not other choice, unfortunately.

TCs need to understand that the TC properties in the south are only 28% (area wise) of the GC properties left in the north. Value wise they are estimated to be only around 15% of the corresponding GC private land in the occupied. If TCs after selling most of the GC land in the north, come in the south and start selling theirs too, were are we going to end?

As for the demolished houses brother, do not get so exited. The value of a 35 or 40-year-old house within a plot situated in a city or any village, probably represents less than 1/10 of the total value of the entire property. GCs will still be most happy if, after all their houses in the north are demolished, the land is given back to them. Because that is were most of the value is situated and not on a 40 years old house which most probably, should it be given back to the owner, he will in fact demolish it alone by himself and build something bigger, more modern or more productive.
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Postby erolz » Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:31 pm

Kifeas wrote:Erol, one last thing here. When you decide to reply to a posting that relates to any issue, I believe you need to read and take into consideration all the previous postings that related to it and more importantly to grasp the spirit of what is being said by someone and not the letter of any isolated sentence or even a paragraph. Especially if you also want to question on the reasonability of someone’s ideas, like you did in my case.


Kifeas if you feel I have been 'unfair' to you then I appologise. What you have to realise, to understand TC reaction on issues like these, is that we have been subject to a propaganda war and this type os issue has been one of the weapons used in that war (and still is) and thus we are very sensitive about this. Propaganda along the lines of TC have sought to eradicate Greek culture from the north since 74, that we treat Greek / Byzantine monuments with contempt but not non Greek or Byzantine ones and the underlying idea that GC = civilised and TC = barabrians. None of this is true imo yet even today posters like Pantleis are still insisting that we treat Salamis with contempt - purely because it is part of 'greek' cultural heritage and not Turkish.

kifeas wrote:As for the description or presentation in various books, leaflets and websites of these monuments and generally the history of Cyprus as it relates to the north or “TRNC,” Yes, I have come across such references that clearly try to conceal the fact that GCs ever existed in the north or that they have any share in the cultural heritage of the north. At least some of them, including official publications and websites.


Some examples? Do you think there is no examples of the RoC doing similar re the Ottoman period of Cyprus' history?

To be honest I am entering one of my 'tierd, depressed and fed up with the whole discussion' phases right now - it seems that antagonism, insults, intentful misunderstanding and general hostility is on the rise here in recent weeks. I think I will be largely absenting myself from these discussions as an active participant for a while and will hopefully return refreshed and renewed in the future and who knows maybe things will have moved back into a more 'constructive' phase by then as well. As even I am more than happy and even keen to meet anyone in person, on either side of Cyprus so if anyone wants do drop me a PM. Other than that to my friends and 'enemies' here alike I wish you good health and say 'bye for now'.
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Postby cannedmoose » Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:41 pm

erolz wrote:As even I am more than happy and even keen to meet anyone in person, on either side of Cyprus so if anyone wants do drop me a PM. Other than that to my friends and 'enemies' here alike I wish you good health and say 'bye for now'.


Have a nice temporary 'retirement' Erolz, I agree with your assessment that the forum seems to be becoming increasingly hijacked by people intending and willing to insult each other. It's just a shame that we have to lose the level-headed folk such as yourself because of them.

I'm not due in Cyprus for some time (early next year probably), but will be there for a couple of months doing some research. Hope to hook up over a coffee then.

Take care man.
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Postby Viewpoint » Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:12 pm

Kifeas what a flipant and arrogant approach
Even if we assume that each donum is valued at let’s say 20,000 on the average (one has to consider that within this land there will also be a lot agricultural land, which is valued between 5-10,000 pounds,) Then we are talking for about 100 million Cyprus pounds. This figure is well within the capacity of the RoCy in order to compensate the TC owners when it will be required to do so. Even if this figure is doubled it will still be well within the governments ability to do so.


We have the money to pay you off its no big deal they are not your ancenstral homes even if your land is worth some thing we are rich enough to pay you off.

Then surely if you apply this logic then GCs have nothing to worry about they will get compensated for loss of land in a comprehensive solution, is that OK, if in your opinion its no big thing for us then surely the same principle should be applied to yourselves.
TC should not be worried for such a thing as there is no way, once a solution is achieved, to ever loose there money.


So no one has to be worried about loss of land, problem solved.

To the contrary, GCs are truly and rightfully concerned with the sale of their private land in the north, which in some areas, coincidentally the most expensive ones like Kyrenia, has reached, as it seems to most of us, nearly 50% of it


You have a weird logic that GCs should be concerned, but as stated above by yourself no need they will get compensated under a comprehensive soluiton. The use of GC land is the north is being blown out of all proportion and being sensationalized for international consumption to serve a purpose Im sure you are aware off.
The majority of land developed has equivelent in the south and difference will be compensated by the north or the south which ever is valued higher.

And if you are thinking about who will compensate GCs property owners, I believe either via ECHR or a comprehensive solution Turkey will pay.

So lose the our property is more and worth more so we have the right to complain, your land isnt significant enough to get concerned about attitude. Everyone has a valid case and should be addressed with the same sensitivity and understanding but people should realize that compromize is unavoidable and many people will get compensation rather than their original property back. Time with of course cause more and more people to lose out on return of property.

So instead of spending time on individual law cases against foreigners which only serves to agrivate the situation use your time to apply pressure on your administration to return to the negotiation table and negotiate in good faith this time if you truly want a solution. If not then shut up complaining and work on that velvet partition Mr Papdop is so keen on as he will use as many excuses to avoid returning to the table where he could lose sole rights to the recognized defacto "RoC", he will also be stipulating the colour of the table clothes at the negotitaions and the type of water used on the tables, hes a joke.
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Postby cannedmoose » Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:19 pm

I'm not TPaps greatest fan by any margin as my posts on here attest to. But I disagree that he's seeking some sort of 'velvet partition'. My rationale is this: DHKOs electoral support is on the rise due to his uncompromising stance on the Cyprus issue, partition would remove that vehicle of support. It's therefore in his interests to keep the fire of the Cyprus problem burning bright, so he can stand up as the righteous defender of GC values. In the event that the problem was solved, many of the parties on both sides would lose their entire reason for being, their ideological basis would have crumbled away and they'd be scrambling in the dirt searching for an alternative position (a la AKEL in the early 1990s after the dissolution of the USSR) - DHKO is a prime example of a party that has had difficulty in finding a solid ideology upon which to pin its colours in recent years, thus the Cyprus problem has become a convenient mast for it, and one that amidst the heavy storms that have surrounded him since last April, TPap will continue to cling to.
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Postby uzan » Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:24 pm

Kifeas wrote:
uzan wrote:You were provoked by my comments It is our side, if it wasn't why did you wait 30 years to come while tc were comming and working feerly in south of cyprus.When we said you can come 1000and 1000 of gc wanted to come to north is it true?
You don't want tc, you only want all of cyprus to yourself.

WE WANT EQUALITY,WE WANT RECOGNITION AND WE DEMAND RECOGNITION of TRNC and NOTHING LESS.



Anything else you want ...., boy? Tell us all your wishes and dreams?


Listen boy,
If you came in this forum to pump in empty slogans, provocations and desultory talking then just move on to your toys or to play with your friends in the garden
. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol LISTEN RE, I WISH YOU LEARN HOW TO TALK FIRST ....,chiLD.I am not pumping anything more than you do and truth hurts my dear ..,boy, If you dont like it lump it.
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