Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

Ok Kifeas, maybe we should stop talking about this topic because instead of trying to understand what I'm esentially trying to say, you pick one word and talk about it. I give up.

I understand what you want to say metecyp. You want to say that the only or the most important reason that TCs moved north in 1975 is because of the oppression and fear of GC attacks. I am saying that this was perhaps a reason, at least for some, but not the only reason as there were other equally important reasons like gaining more properties, better houses, etc.

[uzan]

[quote="Kifeas"]Uzan,

Not hat I agree with your reaction but please make sure you quote the right person as I didn't post the paragraph you attribute to me in your above posting.[/quote

I am really sorry to quote wrong person.

[Kifeas]

Although I appreciate the sentiments expressed in your post Kifeas, I'm surprised that you claim St. Hilarion, Buffavento and Kyrenia castles as some uniquely GC heritage. If I'm correct, they were established by the Byzantines (i.e. a shared Greco-Turkish heritage)

The Byzantine heritage was a shared Greco-Turkish heritage? What are you talking about Moosse? The Byzantine Empire, emanating from Konstantinoupolis, was a predominately Greek and Christian Orthodox Empire. The Ottoman Turks were the ones who ended it’s existence and renamed Konstantinoupolis into Istanbul.

and largely improved and strengthened by the Lusignans, by whom the majority of the structures we see today were built. Thus, you could say that they are visible vestiges of the enslavement of Orthodox Christian Cypriots by their Catholic overlords who forced them to trek up into the mountains to build these forts...

And who built them Moosse? Have the Byzantine emperors come from Konstantinoupolis or the Venician Lords from Venice and built them with their own hands? Isn’t it the Cypriots (GCs of the time) who built them with their hands and blood?

I appreciate that the inhabitants of the island at the time were almost exclusively Greek-speaking, Orthodox Christians, but remember that many of these were the ancestors of todays Turkish Cypriots - not all Turkish Cypriots draw their lineage from mainland Turkey, so they have a stake in this history too.

Be careful Moosse, do not say such things as they will jump on you for calling them GC bastards. They do not accept such a thesis. They are all the children of the grand sultans.


Anyway, I am the last one that would have started such a discussion as I considered them a heritage of all Cypriots and primarily a world heritage. I was provoked by Uzan’s comments who called the north as his (theirs) side which they can open and close anytime they want.

[erolz]

When your community builds a Salamina, a Soloi, a St. Hilarion castle, a Buffavento castle, a St. Barnabas monastery, an Apostolos Andreas monastery, a Lapithos, a kyrenia castle, and all the rest of the ancient monuments that you promote to the tourists but simultaneously hide to them the fact that they are the cultural heritage of the Greek Cypriots, then you will be ethically and morally allowed to call the north, your side. Until then, you cannot claim it to be your side, as it belongs to all Cypriots (in fact much more to the GCs) and we will never recognise to you such a right.

Sorry Kifeas but the three _crusader_ castles and Kyrenia castles are not the cultural heritage of Greek _Cypriots_. If you believe you are part of the Cypriot people then these castles were built by invaders to fortify their occupation of Cyprus and Cypriots. You might try and claim they are part of Greek cultural heritage, but even that is a tenous claim without qualification. The crusaders were not Greek. They were not Byzantine for than matter either. Now the Akropolis I will agree is part of Greek cultrual heritage (but not Cypriot cultural heritage) but the crusader castles?
Further what makes you think we (TC) hide the (real) cultural heritage of these monuments? Have you been to any of them? Have you read the handed out facts sheets they give at these monuments? Does it say they were built by TC or Turks? Or does it lay out their know history - which can be read in any half decent guide book to Cyprus?
You seem so reasonable when met in person - but then you start with claims like the above ???

For your information the Byzantine was not a (solely) 'Greek' empire or culture. Try having a look here for more info

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/MA/BYZ.HTM

and extract for you

Byzantine history, then, stretches in a continuous line from the latter centuries of Rome to the very beginning of the modern period. It transmited the classical culture of Greece and Rome but it also developed a unique historical and cultural character based on a synthesis of Greek, Roman, European, and Islamic elements.

[pantelis]

Erol,
I have visited, with my family, a number of these monuments last summer. It was very obvious to my American wife, that these monuments were not Turkish, from the way they are being protected and preserved. Salamis, for example, has been turned into a garbage dump, full of papers, cigarette butts and feces. My American wife was furious. The "officials" only care to collect the entrance fees.
It is not enough to claim something is yours or that it’s part of your heritage. You need to actually feel and act that way, as well. I am sorry to say that I have seen little evidence of these feelings, throughout the north.

[erolz]

Erol,
I have visited, with my family, a number of these monuments last summer. It was very obvious to my American wife, that these monuments were not Turkish, from the way they are being protected and preserved. Salamis, for example, has been turned into a garbage dump, full of papers, cigarette butts and feces. My American wife was furious. The "officials" only care to collect the entrance fees.

To say salamis has been turned into a garbage dump is just a lie. Would you like me to take a phot of a garbage dump and then one of salamis and let you compare them? The fact is we care for these things to the best of our ability and the limits of finacial resources. If that means we do not care for them as well as your American wife would like then that is unfortunate. Let her try and live at the income level of the average TC for 30 years and the see how much of her own taxes she would be willing to increase to care for these monuments. This is just more of the same old 'propganda' namely - TC are barabrians who rape and steal and care nothing for monuments such as these. Absolute tosh!

It is not enough to claim something is yours or that it’s part of your heritage.

And where exactly have I done either. Please do not put words into my mouth that I have never uttered.

You need to actually feel and act that way, as well. I am sorry to say that I have seen little evidence of these feelings, throughout the north.

You see what you want to see pantelis. I as an UK expat (and even more so if I were an american) would not have the sheer cheek to lecture a people / community who live on a income level many many times less than my own on how they should spend there scarce resources on maintaing sites such as these - but then the arrogance of Americans is world renown. If you _really_ care about these sites (and not just using them for propaganda) then how about you and your wife, next time you visit, actually _do something_ about it, rather than moan and then jet off back to your luxury, air conditioned, earth destroying, energy rich USA lifestyles? I will go with you to salamis, pay you entrance fee and the three of us can collect up as much rubbish as we can. How about that? Somehow I suspect that your american wife would not actually want to get her hands dirty and that you yourself care little for the monunments except fot their propganda value to your 'nobel cause' - but I would be more than happy to discover I am wrong and accompany you on a 'clean up salamis' expidetion. Deal?

[metecyp]

I understand what you want to say metecyp. You want to say that the only or the most important reason that TCs moved north in 1975 is because of the oppression and fear of GC attacks. I am saying that this was perhaps a reason, at least for some, but not the only reason as there were other equally important reasons like gaining more properties, better houses, etc.

I agree with you then but the bottom line is TCs that migrated from the south to the north were not victims of the Turkish invasion as mikkie2 tried to portray. I hope that's clear now.

I have visited, with my family, a number of these monuments last summer. It was very obvious to my American wife, that these monuments were not Turkish, from the way they are being protected and preserved. Salamis, for example, has been turned into a garbage dump, full of papers, cigarette butts and feces. My American wife was furious. The "officials" only care to collect the entrance fees.
It is not enough to claim something is yours or that it’s part of your heritage. You need to actually feel and act that way, as well. I am sorry to say that I have seen little evidence of these feelings, throughout the north.

I visited Salamis with a GC friend of mine last summer and I don't remember seeing papers, or feaces. But you're right that many historical places, like Salamis, are not protected as much as needed. However, I don't think that this is intentional. Nobody in the north thinks that "Oh Salamis is a Greek heritage so let's not waste our money preserving it." People tend to neglect historical sites of any kind in the north and I believe it's mainly lack of funds and education rather than hatred towards anything Greek or Christian.

[pantelis]

http://www.coe.int/T/E/Cultural_Co-oper ... DCULT(2004)7_EN.PDF?L=EN

[erolz]

http://www.coe.int/T/E/Cultural_Co-operation/Culture/Policies/Reviews/CDCULT(2004)7_EN.PDF?L=EN

and the point of posting a link to this document is?

[pantelis]

Read it and discover it.