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[Kifeas]

I said "under GC rule" because there was a defacto domination of RoC by the Greek Cypriots. This was a fact. Since 1967, TCs might have no problem, but obviously they had a problem in 1974, when the EOKA B men killed T.C civilians in four villages. Beside, whoever I spoke with, they all talked about pre-74 G.C yoke. So, should I believe in these people, or some G.Cs in this forum?

My friend, do you know when the TC civilians were killed in those 4 villages? On the 23rd of July 1974. From the 15th of July when the coup started until the 20th of July when the Turkish “peace operation” started not one single TC was touched. On the 20th and 21st of July 1974 (and do not attempt to cross me on this as I was in Lapithos and 9 y.o. old then) The Turkish Army, with the guidance of TC aides on the coast, landed in Karavas (5th mile) and committed numerous atrocities on civilians, There are about 600 civilians that were murdered, only from the villages of Karavas (Alsancak,) Ayios Georgios (Karaoglanoglou) and Kyrenia which fell in the hands of the Attila on the 22nd of August. This is on top of more than 500 GC soldiers that were killed in during the fighting of these 3 days. Furthermore in the nearby Lapithos (Lapta) from two napalm bombs dropped in the village, about 40 people were killed and about 80 were burned to 2nd & 3rd degree level. I have lost 3 cousins and two uncles that were cold blood murdered together with another 70 people, when captured in the basement of their house in Karavas village on the 21st of July.

Not that it constitute a justification, but you can understand how easy it has become for some fascist EOKA B criminals to retaliate against TC civilians in the south, upon hearing what had happened against GCs in Kyrenia between 20th and 22nd of July. Should you seek answers as to why TCs were murdered on the 23rd of July, you are right to seek them from the GCs, but you should equally seek the same answers from among the Turkish Army. Furthermore, the next wave of TC civilian killings occurred after the 14th of August. Is it a coincidence that at that day, Turkey lunched the 2nd round of it’s operation with 450 tanks and 30,000 Turkish soldiers rushing through the plains of Morfou and Mesaoria and spreading death and destruction in their passing. Under such a climate of despair, panic and destruction that the second “peace operation” brought to GCs, unfortunately some criminal GCs expressed their madness towards TC civilians. You always speak about murders of TC civilians, and you are right to do so. However you never talk about the nearly 6,000 GCs that were killed or went missing forever, during the Turkish “peace operation,” most of them civilians and most of them after having been captured alive by the Turkish Army.

And as I said previously, although 9 yers old, I have a first hands experience of what happened in 1974.

Besides you said, "and little bit the fear of reprehension against them by GC refuges". So fear is just a very little reason.

No, is not a very little reason. It was not the only reason and not the main reason!

[MicAtCyp]

I call insane to the people who destroy Turkish Cypriot houses, but on the other hand call Turkish Cypriots "thieves" just because they live in former Greek Cypriot property.

There are no insane people that would knock down the TC houses when they themselves were living in tents as refugees.There are insane people who just imagine that. The fact is your houses fall down by themselves because they were built with mud. Remember the relation 1/20 valuewise?

What classifies one as a thief is the getting of someone else property by force, and then claiming he "exchanged" it with his own. You are the one who said the judges exchanged their properties (by force of course)

[Viewpoint]

-mikkie2-

In 1975 when there was the population movement from south to north I remember seeing TC's hugging their GC's neigbours and crying as they were RELUCTANTLY being hearded on the UN trucks and busses to take them north.

Thats why my family were herded into a football field in limassol and kept for days under the sun given only bread and water, and treated like shit (even shot) by those neighbours you so fondly refer to, so the first opportunity they got they fleed to the north.
I can personally remember being told not to talk Turkish at check points as we would be persecuted, ridiculed or shot by GC soldiers, we were not allowed to use GC beaches or shop in certain areas we were spat on by friendly GCs and told to go die somewhere. A relative of mine was shot dead at one of the check points in 1963 by GC soldiers. In 1974 another relative was taken from his family while in a truck full of TCs being taken accross the boarder with other TC men, those men are still missing, his wife was left with 5 children and nothing.
These are the kind neighbourly acts you refer to Mikkie2, there are always to sides to the coin. Where your arguement falls flat is that TCs have not returned to the south in significant numbers to warrant your remarks of GC TC brotherly love and that TCs were forced to move north. You should look towards yourselves for why these people ran to safety in the north and away from the fear for their lives and GC persecution on all levels both politcial and social.

Kifeas

TCs were not living under the GC rule my friend. If they were living under any rule, it was the TMT rule that wanted to keep them under it’s control within the enclaves that they formed. From 1967 and onwards they had absolutely no reason not to return to their properties and engage into normal economic activities like the rest of the GCs.

The TC community went into enclaves for fear of being killed by GC extremists, there are many examples one of which was provied on this forum of a TC worker who remained outside the enclave I think he worked with GCs in a bank but was killed by GCs, is that the safety of the RoC you so freely peddle, good reason to return to their properties and engage into normal economic activities like the rest of the GCs..

[MicAtCyp]

Cannedmoose if you don't like my posts don't read them. I think you are actually dying to read them though. Still waiting your reply regarding the slavery and dejuicing FACTS if your nausea is over.

It is a myth propagated by many in the north that no TC's would want to go and live in the south again.

It is in fact a myth Mikkie.The richest agriculturists in Cyprus were NOT the GCs of Morphou. They were the TC agriculturists of Paphos. Most of them had huge pieces of lands by the water especially around were now the Paphos Airport is. Unfortunately however those TCs are not really the mojority, so they prefer to keep low tones.

I suspect that most TC's though would be happy to keep what they have got because it is worth MUCH more than what they left behind.

Exactly Mikkie. There are the rich TCs who will return thats for sure. The rest don't want to return simply because of the 1/20 valuewise reality.They pretend they don't want to live among the GCs, they are afraid blah blah blah, but the real reason is because they want to keep the 20 times more piece!!

THIS IS NOT A LIE. HE TOLD ME HIMSELF!
He did not escape anything. He was not attacked by GC's, he wasn't under threat of anything. THIS IS THE MYTH TC's LIKE TO PROPAGATE!!!! He went north UNDER DURESS. All he wants to do is go back to his land.

My friend I am sure you remember how many times I told them that I saw the TCs leaving in 1975 after the 3rd Vienna Agreement crying and hagging their GC neighbours. I told them I saw them with my own eyes, no matter what I tell them they said I was lying....

Did the army force him to abandon his property in south and made him move to north? How could this be possible?

Ask Ibrahim Aziz and some few who dared NOT move to the North what happened to them and how many times their life was threatened by their own people ....

[metecyp]

Once the Turkish invasion concluded in 1974 and the Attila line was formed upon the ceasefire positions of the two sides, the next step of Turkey’s partition aims was to achieve the transfer of all the Turkish Cypriot population that inhabited the southern part into the north. A number of methods were implemented in order to convince the TCs to migrate into the northern part. The most important one was that of promises and lies.

Kifeas, I don't deny this. It's true in some cases that some TCs migrated to the north believing these promises and lies as you call them. But I still believe that majority of TCs that moved from the south moved due to security concerns no matter who says what because I know what happenned in 1974 both to TCs and GCs and I read and listened stories of people going from south to north and the reasons behind it.

Little bit the promises for better land and houses, little bit the lies for an agreement, and little bit the fear of reprehension against them by GC refuges and bingo. What else do you need?

Little bit the fear of reprehension against them by GC refugees? Remember the Dohni massacre, Atlilar-Murataga-Sandallar massacre...how would you feel after that? A little bit fear...?

Why are you so surprised if some TCs that had some indeed good properties in the south have now regretted and wish to return? Especially if we take into consideration that not all of them were give equivalent properties in the north and some of them were even left with only papers in their hands because uncle Rauf wanted to satisfy the settlers and his buddies to the maximum. Haven’t all these things happened in the north? Why the surprise?

I'm not surprised. I was just reacting how Mikkie described this man as "victim to Turkish invasion". No, he's not victim to Turkish invasion. He moved from the south either because he was scared of GCs or he was greedy and he wanted more in the north. Either way, he's not a victim of Turkish invasion. I hate this "blame it all on Turks" mentality.

In 1975 when there was the population movement from south to north I remember seeing TC's hugging their GC's neigbours and crying as they were RELUCTANTLY being hearded on the UN trucks and busses to take them north. You seem to think that ALL TC's were politically motivated in their actions. Most people don't give a monkeys about politics. To suggest that ALL TC's moved north because they didn't agree or didn't want political 'domination' by GC's is one of the biggest myths that has been propagated by the TC elite and Turkey. Most ordinary people do not care about politics or politicians. All they want is to live a quiet, peaceful and productive life, not sitting there thinking about politics.

Again, I'm not denying that such incidents happened. I once read about a TC who migrated from Limassol to the north in 1975 and she was talking about how she hugged her GC neigbors before she left and asked them to take care of her flowers in her garden! But again, she left...why? because she was insecure living among in a GC dominated society after 1974. The point is: she wasn't dragged out of her house by Turkish soldiers and sent to the north! She is not a victim of Turkish invasion, she's a victim of the situation at that time which was everybody's fault.

Exactly Mikkie. There are the rich TCs who will return thats for sure. The rest don't want to return simply because of the 1/20 valuewise reality.They pretend they don't want to live among the GCs, they are afraid blah blah blah, but the real reason is because they want to keep the 20 times more piece!!

TCs are greedy..TCs only had mud houses before 1974..TCs want to profit from GC loss...evil Turks....blah blah blah...I'm seriously giving up hope.

[MicAtCyp]

Why are you so surprised if some TCs that had some indeed good properties in the south have now regretted and wish to return? Especially if we take into consideration that not all of them were give equivalent properties in the north and some of them were even left with only papers in their hands because uncle Rauf wanted to satisfy the settlers and his buddies to the maximum. Haven’t all these things happened in the north? Why the surprise?

Well said Kifeas. May I just ask our TC friends to wonder why the gates were kept sealed for 30 years by their own regime? Wasn’t it to lock the families from returning? RoC never locked any gates!
Other TC friends in this forum wonder why if that is so, those TCs don't return NOW? I gave the reasons in previous posts but it seems they don't want to listen....

However you never talk about the nearly 6,000 GCs that were killed or went missing forever, during the Turkish "peace operation," most of them civilians and most of them after having been captured alive by the Turkish Army.

It's difficult for them Kifeas. They only learn easy poems like the "Aloa-Sandalari-Tohni" poem. And when you ask them how many are they in total, they pretend they don't know it was only 180 people. Sad of course., but quite suitable for an easy poem for everybody to learn and repeat when needed.

Let me hear the "Aloa-Sandalari-Tohni" poem from the TC chorus one more time, come on boys and girls, once more....

there are always to sides to the coin. Where your arguement falls flat is that TCs have not returned to the south in significant numbers to warrant your remarks of GC TC brotherly love and that TCs were forced to move north.

Although VP you admitted there are two sides of the coin you still refuse to accept that the majority of TCs were having brotherly relations with their GC neighbours. And where your own argument falls flat is that your own Regime locked you up for 30 years!! Why did they lock you up give me one good reason. You also forget that every TC village before 1974 had a Turkish General in command. Is this true or is it not? What do you think was the job of that General after the Turkish Army forced Klerides to sign the 3rd Vienna agreement in 1975? (notice that still erroneously call that agreement as "population exchange agreement"). Tell me what was the job of the General?

[metecyp]

Let me hear the "Aloa-Sandalari-Tohni" poem from the TC chorus one more time, come on boys and girls, once more....

I knew right from the beginning it was waste of time to try to communicate with you. I won't respond to your insults anymore. I urge all TCs on the forum to do the same. There's nothing to discuss with someone who shows utmost disrespect for such a sensitive issue.

[Viewpoint]

MicAtCyp

And where your own argument falls flat is that your own Regime locked you up for 30 years!! Why did they lock you up give me one good reason.

Or was it to lock you guys out of the north and thus avoid your manipulative and majority rule mentality, if TCs were in such a rush to go back to their brothers the GCs they could have flown out of the north to anywhere in the world and back to the south nothing was stopping them (Im sure the "RoC" would have financed such demand if it exisited and milked it for political and international gain). You only dillude yourselves by your thought patterns, why not accept that TCs went to north primarily out of fear and mistrust of GCs.

[Kifeas]

Little bit the promises for better land and houses, little bit the lies for an agreement, and little bit the fear of reprehension against them by GC refuges and bingo. What else do you need?

Little bit the fear of reprehension against them by GC refugees? Remember the Dohni massacre, Atlilar-Murataga-Sandallar massacre...how would you feel after that? A little bit fear...?

My friend,
Please understand the context within which I am using the above comments.
I am not talking about the summer of 1974 in which there was a Turkish invasion and subsequent retaliation and vengeance against TCs by EOKA B criminals. I am referring to the period and to the circumstances under which TCs were found in year 1975 when the actual massive movement to the north had occurred. In summer 1974 there was a real and massive fear, I accept this!

In 1975, one year after, although this fear continued to exist, it was not to the same extent like in 1974, nor it was the only reason why TCs moved to the south. That is why I said a little bit of one reason, a little bit of another reason, etc. I believe I gave a fair description to the climate in 1975 and the reasons why TC decided to move north.

[uzan]

And where your own argument falls flat is that your own Regime locked you up for 30 years!! Why did they lock you up give me one good reason. You also forget that every TC village before 1974 had a Turkish General in command. Is this true or is it not? What do you think was the job of that General after the Turkish Army forced Klerides to sign the 3rd Vienna agreement in 1975? (notice that still erroneously call that agreement as "population exchange agreement"). Tell me what was the job of the General?

LOOK gate locked because we didn't want you to come to our side.Now we can shut the gates any time we want,and you have to show passport to come to uor side.I do not know how old are you but I know one think you are dreammer, every turkish village had Turkish General and forced Klerides to sign the 3rd Vienna agreement in 1975 You must be drunk to write and believe this.RAUF DENKTAS always says gc are dreammers keep dreamming