Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

You conveniently forgot about a large chunk of the equation. What about (200.000-600) GCs who cannot enjoy their properties and what about approximately half of TCs and 80.000+ settlers who enjoy someone else's property in the north? Who are we trying to fool here?

I'm not trying to fool anyone. My views about all refugees is very clear and I stated my opinions here on this board many times. The things I've said above were only about Loizidou case but I think you have a personal problem with me because lately I've realized that you are looking for excuses to attack me.

Besides, can you really say 600+ GCs are enjoying their property in the north? Even the Maronites in the north could not fully enjoy their properties/land until recently.

Proof please. Who occupied their land for what reason? And what's happened recently so that they were granted their full right to their properties?

Come on....every EHRC decision about north Cyprus finds Turkey guilty, not TRNC because according to them, there's no such thing as TRNC. They believe that Turkey is fully responsible on what happens in the north and it's true. So if Turkey is fully responsible in the north, that means Turkey is the one that doesn't let GCs enjoy their properties in the north, then what does that make Turkey? A peaceful loving neighbor?

I'm not denying the wrongs done by Turkey concerning this issue. I many times stated that Turkey should have fulfilled its obligations according to mutually ratified agreements. However the latest ECHR decision didn't consider TRNC properties commission illegal but inadequate in boundaries of international laws. what does this mean to you?

I'm not trying to put all the blame on Turkey. I realize that GCs also share the blame whether they accept it or not. But the fact is you can't justify not letting someone to enjoy his/her property by simply saying "there's no solution yet" or "they refused the Annan plan that enabled them to get their property so it's not our fault"

I believe that GC leadership has never wished to share the legislative power equally with TC community in a bi-communal, bi-zonal federation as it is described on UN resolutions. Therefore I blame GC leadership because of the unresolved Cyprus problem. On the other hand I many times stated that Turkey-TC dou could unilaterally have done many things to solve at least some parts of the problem. Even though it was not seem easy under the hostile enviroments of 74; Turkey-TC duo at least exert effort to provide security and full human rights to the GCs who didn't flee South, yet.. etc etc etc.. I will not repeat everything I stressed many times before.

Even replying to your meaningless(to me) post is waste of time for me. If you were a new member who does not know my views about this issues I wouldn't feel hurt but metecyp, when I hear these words by someone like you, the only thing springs to my mind is that you have a personal problem with me.

[-mikkie2-]

All Cypriots including 600+ GCs and pre-74 TC inhabitants of North enjoy their properties in North peacefully.

Insan,

They enjoy their property peacefully? No mention of the break ins by settlers, stealing of money whilst people were out etc. These people live in fear every day from the settlers. I went to Rizokarpasso a year ago and I went to the Greek coffee shop and the doors were locked with the people inside. Is that a sign of people enjoying their lives peacefully? Is that why on occasion the police drive around in their cars warning the GC's to stay in their houses to protect their possessions?

Metecyp, it was good to see that you stood up for what is right here as opposed to poiticising this.

[-mikkie2-]

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=19258&archive=1

Article from todays Cyprus Mail on the ECHR decision.

Whilst the Turkish press were clutching at straws, I think a more honest interpretation of the decision can be found here.

[metecyp]

The things I've said above were only about Loizidou case but I think you have a personal problem with me because lately I've realized that you are looking for excuses to attack me

How can I have a personal problem with you when I don't even know you? Sometimes I don't agree with your posts and this is just one of them. You post a lot of messages every day on this forum. Do I disagree with every single of them? If that were the case, I would accept your "personal problem" allegation but this is one of the few times that I almost completely disagreed with your post. And how was this an attack?

Proof please. Who occupied their land for what reason? And what's happened recently so that they were granted their full right to their properties?

Ok, I'm not going to spend time to search for a link but I can assure you that this was true. I read this in Kibris newspaper online couple of months ago. Before, Maronites living in the north occupied their own land/house but once they died (and most of them were old anyway), they couldn't pass their properties to their children. TRNC wouldn't allow them to pass their properties legally to their children since most of their children were in the south in the first place so the property became "state property" in a sense. You wouldn't call this "full enjoyment of property", would you? Another issue was once a child of an old maronite returned back to the south, he/she couldn't return back to the north (he/she could visit though). One of the changes was that Maronites now can pass their properties to their children. There were some other changes which I don't remember right now.

However the latest ECHR decision didn't consider TRNC properties commission illegal but inadequate in boundaries of international laws. what does this mean to you?

It means that it might be possible that GCs will need to go to TRNC properties commission before they apply to EHRC, that's it. It doesn't mean that GC refugee rights are not violated, it doesn't mean that TRNC will be recognized...

And even if we make a wild assumption and assume that TRNC properties commission is the sole authority on property issue in the north, what do you think will happen? GCs will go to that commission and sign off their properties for us? Or TRNC will be able to compensate every GC refugee? How do you think this commission will help for a solution, if any? For me, this commission is just another attempt to postpone the inevitable.

Even replying to your meaningless(to me) post is waste of time for me.

Why meaningless? Because I didn't agree with you? Because I lied? Or because my logic was faulty? Or because I talked about something that doesn't matter? Why meaningless?

If you were a new member who does not know my views about this issues I wouldn't hurt but metecyp, when I hear these words by someone like you, the only thing spring to my mind is that you have a personal problem with me.

Again, I can't have a personal problem with you. I just didn't agree with your post. Maybe my fault is I replied very fast without thinking your views overall. If I did that, maybe I would have interpreted what you said in a different way. But at the same time, there's no point in getting hurt or thinking that someone is attacking you because someone didn't agree with you.

[boulio]

hats off to metecyp for being objective in this discussion,i also would like to see t/c enjoy there property in the south,they should be allowed to obtain and use there property,it will help build confidence between the two communities.

[RAFAELLA]

Insan, the decision has nothing to do with Anan Plan.
There was a referendum, the Gcs, good for them, voted against that Plan. That doesn't mean though that they don't want a solution, a fair solution should be given to them. What did u expect? To give their approval for their "death"?
If u critisize their decision then what was the point of having a referendum?
The ECHR does not absolve Turkey of its responsibility with regard to the violation of the rights of refugees because, as Ankara had claimed, the Greek Cypriots rejected a UN-proposed solution plan.

It was mentioned that even the Turkish Judge at ECHR gave his positive vote for that decision.
[/quote]

[-mikkie2-]

I believe that the decision was unanimous. What will happen to this Turkish judge? Will he be recalled back to Ankara and replaced by one more attuned to the attitude of the Turkish government (or deep state)?

[insan]

Insan, the decision has nothing to do with Anan Plan.
There was a referendum, the Gcs, good for them, voted against that Plan. That doesn't mean though that they don't want a solution, a fair solution should be given to them. What did u expect? To give their approval for their "death"?
If u critisize their decision then what was the point of having a referendum?
The ECHR does not absolve Turkey of its responsibility with regard to the violation of the rights of refugees because, as Ankara had claimed, the Greek Cypriots rejected a UN-proposed solution plan.

It was mentioned that even the Turkish Judge at ECHR gave his positive vote for that decision.

I know Rafaella. If you ask TC leadership and Turkey they rejected some of the UN proposals because some provisions of those proposals did not provide TCs the security and political equality they want. I know that the situation regarding the Annan Plan and all other UN proposals is same for GC community. You rejected some UN proposals because they didn't provide you what you want. However from mid-90s until 2003 the public opinion of the international community had a conviction that Turkish side did not want a solution to Cyprus problem because they weren't well aware that Turkish side rejected thsoe plan because of some provisions of those plans that did not provide Turkish side what it wants.

Recently the public opinion of international community thinks the opposite for Turkey-TC duo and rather tend to blame GC leadership for the unresolved Cyprus problem. Just like how Turkey-TC duo exerted effort to change its negative reputation concerning the solution of Cyprus problem; now its GC leadership who exerts effort to elliminate the negative impressions it caused by rejecting the Annan Plan. The general public opinion of interantional community about Annan 5 was positive. Most of the concerned parties were surprised by GC no vote.

This is what I'm trying to tell. I have respect for the decision of GC community. However showing respect to each other's decisions does not help to solve the Cyprus problem. Apparently, the expectations of majortiy of each community from a solution are diametrically opposing. I don't think they will ever change their minds and stance for a compromised solution.

[insan]

How can I have a personal problem with you when I don't even know you? Sometimes I don't agree with your posts and this is just one of them.

You are free to disagree with my opinions and put forward yours but trying to label me as "trying to fool" people is giving me the impression that you have a conviction that I'm just trying to "fool" people th. You did the same a several times before. Just put your forward your own counter arguments about my arguments. If you tell me that I'm trying to "fool" people, then I'll tell you no, it's you that trying to fool people not me. Where does this "fooling" each other lead us?

[insan]

Why meaningless? Because I didn't agree with you? Because I lied? Or because my logic was faulty? Or because I talked about something that doesn't matter? Why meaningless?

Read the first post of this thread. Then you2ll understand how meaningless is your post.