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Postby GorillaGal » Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:20 am

Filitsa wrote:
Mills Chapman wrote:
Filitsa wrote:I agree, Mills, that more importantly he voted against the invasion, but you must admit this coupled with the timing of his announcement was the catalytst to the intrigue that surrounds him. I wouldn't mind a $500 bil investment if it was for a noble cause. I hope he holds true to his commitment to meet with opposing heads of state.


Half of America has been disenchanted with Bush since he was elected in 2000. More since then. And many were disenchanted with the Iraq affair from the get-go. For the democrat voters who can select Obama as their canidate in this primary, they were disenchanted with both Bush and Iraq long before Obama announced anything.


I have to disagree. In the fall of 2001, GWB had a 90% approval rating.

If there is a strike against Obama, it's that he should have waited another term so that he could have more experience in the US senate. But hopefully that's offset by the ethical baggage that Hillary carries from the '90s (see Whitewater investigation in addition to V Foster).


I'm one of those subscribers ... was on the fence right up until the morning of the primary. The "baggage issue" was the deciding factor.


in 2001, we had just been attacked by terrorists. we were in shock, scared, and mourning. if he didn't do something, he probably would have been impeached.
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Postby Oracle » Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:23 am

Mills Chapman wrote:
Oracle wrote:Far be it from me to get involved with politics or Americans... don't understand either ..... :lol:

But ...
This is the US' chance to really prove itself as a non-hypocritical sophisticated country.

Obama is just a man after all. If anyone singles him out for being (partly) African American, well that's positive discrimination... and suggestive that they vote for him because he is African American, and not just because he is a good male candidate.

On the other hand Hilary is an extremely intelligent woman .. has nurtured a President through two terms etc

As a person she is the most experienced ... yet it weighs against her that she is female.

And yet by the same token the US can really rise in the World's eyes by electing her.

But once again prejudices rule in the US.

Obama will get in because the US wants to improve its "Blacks" image ... but still electing a man (this is paramount).

And a woman will not get in because in reality ... the US is not grown up enough to accept being ruled by a female ... even if she is white.


If one was to replace "woman" with "black male" in this post and vice versa, the same argument could be made about why to pick Obama. The US can rise just as much by electing a black man. The Civil Rights era, with innocent blacks being attacked by police dogs during peaceful marches, was only 40 years ago.

"Still electing a man (this is paramount)" is a subjective comment; for disclaimer purposes, I am a man, but if I were happy with the woman's views towards Iraq and foreign policy, I'd vote for her too.

"And a woman will not get in because in reality ... the US is not grown up enough to accept being ruled by a female ... even if she is white." - this could just as easily be said about being ruled by a black man. A lot of former Klansmen are still alive in the US.

Hillary is indeed extremely intelligent and did nurture a president through twp terms, but there were a lot of personal/integrity issues that wore down Americans during the Clinton administration... like letting celebrities sleep in historic rooms of the White House with their spouses if they first chipped in money to the Clinton's campaign fund.


The point I'm trying to make is that a man is a man, whether he is black or white ... or yellow.

You've had plenty of male Presidents ... fine. It does not matter what color they were.

There is no inherent difference ... so to make an issue of Obama's " roots" is discriminatory and shallow.

But men and women are different... physiologically at the very least.

So it is a big issue that America has an opportunity to vote for a woman against a man ... (color does not, or should, not even enter the debate).
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Postby Mills Chapman » Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:05 am

Oracle wrote:The point I'm trying to make is that a man is a man, whether he is black or white ... or yellow.)

:shock: :shock: :shock:

I encourage you to run that comment by Black American men. They will tell you that is most definitely not the case for them when having their capabilities perceived by most White American men.

Oracle wrote: You've had plenty of male Presidents ... fine. It does not matter what color they were.


We've had only white male presidents - none black or yellow. Just like voting for a woman vs a man, America has a chance to vote for a white vs a black.

Oracle wrote:There is no inherent difference ... so to make an issue of Obama's " roots" is discriminatory and shallow.

But men and women are different... physiologically at the very least..


Maybe there is no physiological difference between black men and white men, but there is a history of American culture socializing its citizens to believe that whites are superior to blacks (slavery, segregation, etc.).

If you were to ask Americans 5 years ago which would come first, a female president or a black president, most folks would say a female president. While both are needed, electing a black president would do more to shatter stereotypes than a female president. That's not why I plan to vote for Obama, but I'm trying to make the point that blacks in the US, overall, have it worse than American women do. Could you imagine a black prime minister in the UK? Blacks (men and women) as a whole in the US are usually in much lower centiles of socio-economic data than American women are as a whole (white women, black women, Asian women, etc.).

I believe - not 100% positive - that the US has many more national politicians who are female than those who are black. In the 1984 election, the losing side (the democrats) had a woman as the vice-president nominee. A black person has never been a vice-president nominee.
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Postby dinos » Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:57 am

Oracle wrote:Far be it from me to get involved with politics or Americans... don't understand either ..... :lol:

But ...
This is the US' chance to really prove itself as a non-hypocritical sophisticated country.

Obama is just a man after all. If anyone singles him out for being (partly) African American, well that's positive discrimination... and suggestive that they vote for him because he is African American, and not just because he is a good male candidate.

On the other hand Hilary is an extremely intelligent woman .. has nurtured a President through two terms etc

As a person she is the most experienced ... yet it weighs against her that she is female.

And yet by the same token the US can really rise in the World's eyes by electing her.

But once again prejudices rule in the US.

Obama will get in because the US wants to improve its "Blacks" image ... but still electing a man (this is paramount).

And a woman will not get in because in reality ... the US is not grown up enough to accept being ruled by a female ... even if she is white.


Oracle,

As I said, Hilary is far from perfect but I could hold my nose and vote for her. I find it absolutely amazing that anyone would think Obama can really change anything. Not any strike against Obama - it's just that Bush failed to pass any of his popular reforms even as he had a unified government for 6 years. Does anybody really think that Obama is really going to "stick it to corporations?" Everybody's retirement in the US is levered to those corporations - you stick it to them and you screw the entire public. Guess how many people will line up for Obama's kool-aid once their life savings evaporate...

They may be the words of a dinosaur or whatever else I may be - but I see clearly the disappointment that Obama's supporters face down the road as one tin god would simply be replaced by another. Eventually, they'll be dragged kicking and screaming and forced to admit failure - the same as has been conceded on behalf of Bush by the majority of the country.

All this said, Oracle, once you sell people a dream, all reality goes out the window. This is why the US has a housing crisis. You can tell someone making $30,000 that they can't afford a million dollar house - but under the right "guidance," they'll reject it and try to find a way to get that million dollar house because it's their dream. Even with people telling them they they'll lose it down the road - they have to find out the hard way.
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Postby Mills Chapman » Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:34 am

dinos wrote: They may be the words of a dinosaur or whatever else I may be

Howdy Dinos,

I couldn't resist the lame wordplay. sorry.

dinos wrote: I find it absolutely amazing that anyone would think Obama can really change anything. Not any strike against Obama - it's just that Bush failed to pass any of his popular reforms even as he had a unified government for 6 years.

You may be right, but I think it's his ability to inspire others to the point where they're willing to make tough changes. It doesn't have to be just him versus inertia. I think his oratorial style moves people to consider different perspectives, and that's the precursor to change.

dinos wrote: Does anybody really think that Obama is really going to "stick it to corporations?" Everybody's retirement in the US is levered to those corporations - you stick it to them and you screw the entire public.

I don't, and hope not as my assets are somewhat tied to those corporations, but I think he's the best bet on the foreign policy front.
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Postby dinos » Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:20 pm

Image

This just in: Ralph Nader to launch a third party run for the presidency...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=19274145
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Postby Filitsa » Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:43 am

GorillaGal wrote:
Filitsa wrote:
Mills Chapman wrote:
Filitsa wrote:I agree, Mills, that more importantly he voted against the invasion, but you must admit this coupled with the timing of his announcement was the catalytst to the intrigue that surrounds him. I wouldn't mind a $500 bil investment if it was for a noble cause. I hope he holds true to his commitment to meet with opposing heads of state.


Half of America has been disenchanted with Bush since he was elected in 2000. More since then. And many were disenchanted with the Iraq affair from the get-go. For the democrat voters who can select Obama as their canidate in this primary, they were disenchanted with both Bush and Iraq long before Obama announced anything.


I have to disagree. In the fall of 2001, GWB had a 90% approval rating.

If there is a strike against Obama, it's that he should have waited another term so that he could have more experience in the US senate. But hopefully that's offset by the ethical baggage that Hillary carries from the '90s (see Whitewater investigation in addition to V Foster).


I'm one of those subscribers ... was on the fence right up until the morning of the primary. The "baggage issue" was the deciding factor.


in 2001, we had just been attacked by terrorists. we were in shock, scared, and mourning. if he didn't do something, he probably would have been impeached.


I was being a "wise guy," GorillaGall (thought I had clicked on the "rolling eyes" emoticon, but apparently not). The 90% approval rating was not really for him but instead for our nation in a time of national tragedy.
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Postby Kikapu » Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:54 pm

Filitsa wrote:
I don't understand the comparisons to JFK ... okay so they're both Harvard grads and Democrats. Other than the attractive wives, they really have nothing else in common. I don't buy the "aura" comparison. JFK had it. If Obama does, it's by default of the current administration.


Hi Filitsa,

I came across this article few minutes ago, so I though I would post it for y'all to read. I did say that Barack Obama is NO JFK. I just said, he reminds me of JFK.


Image

Why John F. Kennedy is the Last President Barack Obama Should Try to Emulate
By Asher Smith
Posted: 02/14/2008


Ray Hu/Staff
The day before the Washington state caucus, the Obama campaign landed a major coup. The popular governor, Christine Gregoire, had agreed to endorse the candidate and to not only campaign for him in the key caucus state, but also to appear in a national television advertisement for Obama. This was a crucial victory, as it helped to demonstrate the Illinois senator’s increasing support among female voters, Hillary Clinton’s supposed base.

The ad is noteworthy for how well it fits the narrative that the Obama campaign is trying to establish. Says Gregoire: “I was inspired to pursue a career in public service by John F. Kennedy…like President Kennedy, Barack Obama is inspiring a new generation of young people to get involved.”

As the primary season roars on, Obama is doing all he can to imprint in the American subconscious that Barack Obama is Jack Kennedy reincarnated. It was the theme of the Kennedy/Shriver love-fest in California leading up to Super Tuesday. It’s even the design of new batches of campaign pins produced by the campaign and its supporters, which picture the ex-president’s face prominently behind that of Obama’s.

This amounts to an unspeakably sad kabuki theater of degradation. Not because Barack Obama can’t measure up to Jack Kennedy’s legacy, but because Barack Obama shouldn’t want to.

To put it bluntly, John F. Kennedy was a moral retrograde, an unaccomplished fraud, an indifferent, callow heir of ill-gotten privilege and literally the spawn of Satan (Jack’s father Joseph could have given Lucifer a run for his money). His footsteps should not be ones that any contemporary politician should be seeking to follow in.

A couple months ago, Barack Obama’s campaign put out a new pin seeking to emphasize the candidate’s values. It features Barack, his wife Michelle and his two daughters embracing and looking happily out at the viewer. The caption above the picture reads “America’s First Family,” a title first bestowed upon the Kennedy’s. Yet not only was Jack Kennedy a noted womanizer, his treatment of his wife and children suggest a personal morality bordering on sociopathic. In a story related by award-winning historian Robert Dallek in his authoritative biography of Kennedy, Jack was informed of his wife’s 1955 miscarriage during a yachting trip in the Mediterranean with Senate buddy George Smathers. After little deliberation, Kennedy elected to continue his island-hopping instead of returning to Hyannisport. His bereft wife could wait — he had to finish sampling the women of the various Greek Isles.

In the grand scheme of things, Kennedy’s moral failings pale in comparison to his failings as a public servant, and it is this that really should have precluded Obama’s embracing of Kennedy as a role model. Barack Obama has gone to great lengths to frame himself as the candidate of big ideas, of “change we can believe in.” Yet on the biggest issue of his time, the defining cause of American history, Jack Kennedy was guilty of extreme cowardice and pusillanimity and, as the 2006 book by noted civil rights historian Nick Bryant explained, was nothing more than a mere “bystander” to the drama raging around him. Kennedy had no moral commitment to civil rights. Instead, he possessed an intellectual understanding of the need for reform, but he lacked the ability to empathize with the yearnings of black America, which is what made white politicians such as Hubert Humphrey and Lyndon Johnson able to stake their careers on the altar of equality.

The biggest gulf between Obama and the man he misguidedly seeks to emulate is one of accomplishment. Barack Obama is the epitome of the ideal self-made American man: Hard work and commitment to excellence allowed him to gain admittance into elite universities, and his dogged work as a community organizer is what propelled him into elected office.

In stark contrast, Jack Kennedy was a creation of his father. Any sense of accomplishment that Kennedy may have had was false. Joseph Kennedy’s money placed Jack in Congress and then the Senate, Ted Sorenson’s pen placed him on the best-seller list and Joseph was not above using indiscreet bribes to further his son’s career (he offered $1 million to Lyndon Johnson in 1956 to run for president against Eisenhower with Jack as his vice presidential nominee). Even when John Kennedy ascended to the Oval Office, he wasn’t out of his father’s influence. Brother Bobby was appointed as attorney general on daddy’s orders, over Jack’s meager and brief protest.

Barack Obama is the man John F. Kennedy pretended to be. For the Illinois senator to try to glom onto turpitude-stained coattails, striving to be worthy of the Kennedy inheritance, is a fool’s errand. He already exceeded it long ago just by conducting his life with dignity and integrity.

Asst. Editorials Editor Asher Smith is a College freshman from Great Neck, N.Y.



http://www.emorywheel.com/detail.php?n=25064
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Postby Filitsa » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:30 pm

Kikapu wrote:
Filitsa wrote:
I don't understand the comparisons to JFK ... okay so they're both Harvard grads and Democrats. Other than the attractive wives, they really have nothing else in common. I don't buy the "aura" comparison. JFK had it. If Obama does, it's by default of the current administration.


Hi Filitsa,

I came across this article few minutes ago, so I though I would post it for y'all to read. I did say that Barack Obama is NO JFK. I just said, he reminds me of JFK.


Image

Why John F. Kennedy is the Last President Barack Obama Should Try to Emulate
By Asher Smith
Posted: 02/14/2008


Ray Hu/Staff
The day before the Washington state caucus, the Obama campaign landed a major coup. The popular governor, Christine Gregoire, had agreed to endorse the candidate and to not only campaign for him in the key caucus state, but also to appear in a national television advertisement for Obama. This was a crucial victory, as it helped to demonstrate the Illinois senator’s increasing support among female voters, Hillary Clinton’s supposed base.

The ad is noteworthy for how well it fits the narrative that the Obama campaign is trying to establish. Says Gregoire: “I was inspired to pursue a career in public service by John F. Kennedy…like President Kennedy, Barack Obama is inspiring a new generation of young people to get involved.”

As the primary season roars on, Obama is doing all he can to imprint in the American subconscious that Barack Obama is Jack Kennedy reincarnated. It was the theme of the Kennedy/Shriver love-fest in California leading up to Super Tuesday. It’s even the design of new batches of campaign pins produced by the campaign and its supporters, which picture the ex-president’s face prominently behind that of Obama’s.

This amounts to an unspeakably sad kabuki theater of degradation. Not because Barack Obama can’t measure up to Jack Kennedy’s legacy, but because Barack Obama shouldn’t want to.

To put it bluntly, John F. Kennedy was a moral retrograde, an unaccomplished fraud, an indifferent, callow heir of ill-gotten privilege and literally the spawn of Satan (Jack’s father Joseph could have given Lucifer a run for his money). His footsteps should not be ones that any contemporary politician should be seeking to follow in.

A couple months ago, Barack Obama’s campaign put out a new pin seeking to emphasize the candidate’s values. It features Barack, his wife Michelle and his two daughters embracing and looking happily out at the viewer. The caption above the picture reads “America’s First Family,” a title first bestowed upon the Kennedy’s. Yet not only was Jack Kennedy a noted womanizer, his treatment of his wife and children suggest a personal morality bordering on sociopathic. In a story related by award-winning historian Robert Dallek in his authoritative biography of Kennedy, Jack was informed of his wife’s 1955 miscarriage during a yachting trip in the Mediterranean with Senate buddy George Smathers. After little deliberation, Kennedy elected to continue his island-hopping instead of returning to Hyannisport. His bereft wife could wait — he had to finish sampling the women of the various Greek Isles.

In the grand scheme of things, Kennedy’s moral failings pale in comparison to his failings as a public servant, and it is this that really should have precluded Obama’s embracing of Kennedy as a role model. Barack Obama has gone to great lengths to frame himself as the candidate of big ideas, of “change we can believe in.” Yet on the biggest issue of his time, the defining cause of American history, Jack Kennedy was guilty of extreme cowardice and pusillanimity and, as the 2006 book by noted civil rights historian Nick Bryant explained, was nothing more than a mere “bystander” to the drama raging around him. Kennedy had no moral commitment to civil rights. Instead, he possessed an intellectual understanding of the need for reform, but he lacked the ability to empathize with the yearnings of black America, which is what made white politicians such as Hubert Humphrey and Lyndon Johnson able to stake their careers on the altar of equality.

The biggest gulf between Obama and the man he misguidedly seeks to emulate is one of accomplishment. Barack Obama is the epitome of the ideal self-made American man: Hard work and commitment to excellence allowed him to gain admittance into elite universities, and his dogged work as a community organizer is what propelled him into elected office.

In stark contrast, Jack Kennedy was a creation of his father. Any sense of accomplishment that Kennedy may have had was false. Joseph Kennedy’s money placed Jack in Congress and then the Senate, Ted Sorenson’s pen placed him on the best-seller list and Joseph was not above using indiscreet bribes to further his son’s career (he offered $1 million to Lyndon Johnson in 1956 to run for president against Eisenhower with Jack as his vice presidential nominee). Even when John Kennedy ascended to the Oval Office, he wasn’t out of his father’s influence. Brother Bobby was appointed as attorney general on daddy’s orders, over Jack’s meager and brief protest.

Barack Obama is the man John F. Kennedy pretended to be. For the Illinois senator to try to glom onto turpitude-stained coattails, striving to be worthy of the Kennedy inheritance, is a fool’s errand. He already exceeded it long ago just by conducting his life with dignity and integrity.

Asst. Editorials Editor Asher Smith is a College freshman from Great Neck, N.Y.



http://www.emorywheel.com/detail.php?n=25064


Hi Kikapu,

Your not the only one though. I just don't see it. Why does he remind you of JFK?
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Postby Kikapu » Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:24 am

Filitsa,

"I knew Jack Kennedy. Jack was a friend of mine. Senator, you are NO Jack Kennedy"

Famous line used by Lloyd Bentsen during the Vice Presidential debate against Dan Quayle in 1988, when Dan Quayle tried to link himself with JFK as not being too young to lead the country, in the event George Bush (daddy Bush) "kicked the bucket" before finishing his term(s) in office. Poor Dan Quayle froze like a popsicle at his podium just like a deer looking at the headlight of an oncoming car at night on a country road.

I don't know why I wrote the above. Perhaps once again, JFK was brought up by others in past Presidential elections.

Here are few points as to why Barack Obama reminds me of JFK.

Body language, words spoken with clarity, clearly, softly, passionately, soft laughter, soft and gentle smiles during speeches, appealing to the audience, coming across genuine and not as a smooth talking politician, does not show anger or spitefulness, quick with the responses, humour in his responses short of being sarcastic, intimidating and patronising. He stands tall and makes his presence known where ever he goes as well as earns respect from others.

These are some of my observations of the two men. Take away their skin colour, and you will find the same man standing there.

Lets see how he will govern, when elected as President of the United States.
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