Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

I knew we would find some common ground eventually. I agree Annan plan should be reviewed 5-10 years sounds reasonable (maybe too reasonable). Does this mean you support Annan plan on basis that it will be reviewed?

What I would support is to have democracy and human rights at the end of this road say in 20-30 years from now. I accept that full democracy and especially full human rights might not be possible to come overnight.

Where I disagree is the word "reviewed". When I sign (vote) for a plan now, I want that plan to include the steps that will lead to democracy and human rights. To tell me that now you will start with this, in 5 years this changes will occur, in 10 this, in 20 this and finally this is what you will have in 30 years. This way I can say that I would be willing to let some of my well-being and human rights go, knowing that my children will be able to live in a united democratic Cyprus.

What I can not accept is to leave everything on the goodwill of T/C.

[metecyp]

Why talk about Milocevich? Since you are a Turk why you don't talk about Kurds, or the Armenian genocide instead?

Let me correct you, I'm a Turkish Cypriot, I don't know if it makes a difference for you but it makes a lot of difference for TCs. Now, if you have questions about Kurds and Armenians, go and ask to people responsible, not me. The only reason why I gave Milosevic example was to show you that even democracy has some limits to it.

Oh, now you are telling me about the "realities" like Denctash.
Why don't you see your own realities? That what you have is an unrecognized state where no democracy exists, that you are again a minority because of the settlers, that your "country" is nothing but a huge military base serving the Turkish interests and not yours.

Denktash's realities are much more different than mine, it's your fault if you can't see that. Besides people that support Denktash usually regard people that think like me as a "traitor" since I'm open to GC opinions, but I consider that normal since they're narrow-minded and selfish. Now, it doesn't surprise me that you're labelling me as Denktash supporter. To me, you're just a mirror reflection of Denktas supporters in the north and don't bother to deny this.

What I would support is to have democracy and human rights at the end of this road say in 20-30 years from now. I accept that full democracy and especially full human rights might not be possible to come overnight.

So if it's agreed that so called derogations will be lifted after, say 20 years, would you accept Annan plan?

[Piratis]

me, you're just a mirror reflection of Denktas supporters in the north and don't bother to deny this.

You are wrong. My views are not extreme not nationalist. All i say is that we want democracy and human rights.

So if it's agreed that so called derogations will be lifted after, say 20 years, would you accept Annan plan?

Derogations are part of the "human rights" aspect. All troops should leave also, and the system should become a democratic one. The system at the end should be a pure federation and not a confederation like in Annan plan.

[metecyp]

Even if I agree that your views are not extreme and not nationalist, I still believe that your views are one-sided. Human rights and democracy suit you right now because you're part of the majority. So you try to talk about universal human rights and democracy, but behind that universality hide your true intentions of taking away any TC priviliges.

Derogations are part of the "human rights" aspect. All troops should leave also, and the system should become a democratic one. The system at the end should be a pure federation and not a confederation like in Annan plan.

According to the latest Annan plan, there will be 650 Turkish and 950 Greek soldiers on the island in the long run just like 1960 agreements, I assume you're fine with this considering that you're so fond of Republic of Cyprus.

And secondly, you mentioned before that Switzerland is a confederation, correct? And nobody can claim that Switzerland is a non-democratic state, correct? So even though I'm not so convinced about Annan plan being a confederation, I want to ask you this. What is so horrible about confederation that cannot work in Cyprus while it perfectly works in Switzerland?

[mehmet]

Annan plan

P.12 Details the gradual withdrawal of Turkish and greek troops (also in
more detail from p. 74)
P.13 Talks about territiorial changes
p.14 talks about Reconciliation Commission to promote unity
p.44 mandatory teaching of official languages- so that we can speak to each other in the future in language other than English.
p.45 commitment to investigate missing persons
p. 51- 58 Details of human rights within plan

I stop at P. 100.

Piratis, some of these address the points you have been making. What do you think?

[Piratis]

So you try to talk about universal human rights and democracy, but behind that universality hide your true intentions of taking away any TC privileges.

There are no hidden intentions. This is what I would want from my country even if T/C never existed. It is just what everyone (almost) wants from his own country isn't it? Why you give some other intentions to me?
Actually i think this is the main problem. That instead of looking at what I say, things that have nothing to do with nationalism or extremist, you think of me as somebody that wants to destroy you. This is simply not true.
If I was nationalist or extremist, I would come here to tell you how Cyprus is Greek, refuse that anything happened against T/C after 1963, be upset that they want to change the national anthem etc.
But I am not. I am just asking very reasonable things that will make both of as equal EU citizens. I will gain nothing more than you from this. What I will gain, you will gain too.

According to the latest Annan plan, there will be 650 Turkish and 950 Greek soldiers on the island in the long run just like 1960 agreements, I assume you're fine with this considering that you're so fond of Republic of Cyprus.

We saw where Greece and especially Turkey brought us with their troops. Why would we want to make the same mistakes again?
I don't agree on anything that makes Cyprus any less independent than say UK or France. If you noticed in the other thread I agreed about the change of anthem since having the anthem of another country makes Cyprus less independent. This was a change from RC in the right direction and the removal of all troops is also.
We have to learn from our mistakes, not repeat them.

And secondly, you mentioned before that Switzerland is a confederation, correct? And nobody can claim that Switzerland is a non-democratic state, correct? So even though I'm not so convinced about Annan plan being a confederation, I want to ask you this. What is so horrible about confederation that cannot work in Cyprus while it perfectly works in Switzerland?

Nobody said that confederation can not work. If we recognize TRNC and we have two separate states it will again work, isn't it? And these two separate states can be democratic ones, right? So following your reasoning somebody can say: "Why not 2 separate states?"

The problem is that Cyprus was divided by force. People were forced to leave their houses and abandon their properties. Kerinia belongs to G/C as much as Limassol belongs to T/C.

The way the Annan plan is made we do not have one united Cyprus. We have 2 states that "cooperate" and have unified foreign policy. (the cooperate in quotes, because in the most part our state gives and your state takes).

Mehmet,
The plan is huge. When you say P 12 I guess you mean paragraph 12? In this case you have to tell me which article also.

But I can say something because things are not secret.

What I know is that troops will withdraw gradually, but a part of them will always stay.

What territorial changes? You mean the transitional period until G/C will get the lands returned?

Some things like "promote unity" and "teaching languages" are good and should have been done long time already. But there is nowhere in the plan something that will say that in X years things will change in this Y way. It just leaves everything to the goodwill. And correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that until Turkey enters the EU (which probably will never happen) we will need Turkey to agree for any changes also!

What we are talking about here - a specific transitional period after which we will have a truly united democratic Cyprus with respect to all human rights - is nowhere in the Annan plan. A totally different plan needs to be created for this. This new plan can take parts of how the Annan plan is today for the initial period.

[michalis5354]

Piratis even Denktash says the same things with you ! Denktash also is strongly against the Plan !

What is the different of those GCs who are against the plan and Denktash? At the end of the day you say the same things that the plan is against human rights it is against Democracy etc etc.


You keep asking that you would like EU rights . Do not forget that there are counries withing EU which are functioning in similar frameworks to the UN Anan plan . Take Belgium as an example . EU rights does not mean that you are free to do what you like as there are still many restrictions in many EU countries. There are laws everywhere that you need to follow.There are laws and restrictions everywhere in EU.

And another thing that I would like to ask ! How would your daily life will change if the UN plan had been acepted . Your daily life will not change at all , in my opinion you will be better off in many aspects.

Rejecting the UN plan for somehing uncertain and which is more likely to be even worst in the future it is not very wise option to follow !

Europe has also approved the UN plan.

Actually I agree with you that the military troops of Greece and Turkey in Cyprus are not that essential. But do not forget that the number of them is not that significant and they will be reduced to a great extent.

I do not think that the current daily life will change at all . Financially the efect will be only in the short term . However in the long term there are huge benefits for the whole Cyprus due to many external reasons llike EU membesrhip , regional stability , improved relations with Turkey , probably membership to NATO etc

Keeping the statues quo its a huge benefit of Turkey and not Cyprus. I said this many times here. Turkey can join the EU without setlement in Cyprus since the perception internationally wil be that Greekcypriots do not want a solution and why should we have to force them to a solution ?

The UN plan may have some weaknesses these weaknesses can be improved with cooperation of both commnities. New young politicians should come to power from both communities since the old current politicians CAN NOT and are UNABLE to bring CHANGE. So If in the New federal government are included yound politicians with NEW Ideas these are more likely to cooperate , bring change , and move the whole counry forward.

[michalis5354]

All International experts from USA , UN and even EU have all concluded that this is the BEST FEASIBLE OPPORTUNITY for Cyprus to be United. There will be no other opportunity for settlement in the short future.

Which I can easily make a conclusion that the next attempt for solving the Cyprus issue will be far far in the future. And after the current Turksih government is gone who says that the NEW turkish government will be willing to cooperate and find a settlement in Cyprus ! By that time you will classified the UN Anan Plan as a Good but MISSED opportunity for a settlement.

[mehmet]

Piratis,

OK, so the glass is half empty instead of half full, maybe some in Cyprus are not so thirsty as others. I understand your objections and I understand you want another plan. I presume you are going to vote no to the changes proposed, ie troop reductiions, territorial changes, Reconciliation Commission etc.

There is conflict also within northern Cyprus regarding this plan. When Greek Cypriots reject, Turkish Cypriot opponents of Annan plan will say to others that they were right all along and that it is better not to try to make peace and stay separate. Greek Cypriots have to decide whether to join Turkish Cypriots who support plan or stand 'shoulder to shoulder' (to use Tony Blair's phrase regarding US/UK relationship) with Turkish Cypriot opponents of plan.

I think you are aware that it has taken 30 years to get this far but still it is not far enough for you. In some respects you think you will be worse off in others you acknowledge there are changes for some Greek Cypriots for the better though not for you. At some points in this discussion I thought we were not too far apart yet you cannot bring yourself to voice support for the Plan. All Cypriots must decide whether they accept what most consider an imperfect plan or whether they prefer to carry on separate. Both ways it's a gamble. If politicians play nationalist card it will undo the Plan in action if accepted. If rejected politicians will seek to avoid responsibility for failure by blaming opposition. For some this will be domestic for others the other community and for some international(Uk etc). Either way the result is the same for Cypriots.

When a child is in the middle of two parents shouting the child wants peace not to know who is to blame. Its time for paretns to show maturity and think of what the children need.

Maybe new and young politicians is the answer, lets not wait for the old ones to die, let's not put monuments up in memory, let us remember that they failed to show leadership in the same way Nelson Mandela has done. We could do with some Mandela's, we have too many Sharon's.

[Piratis]

I presume you are going to vote no to the changes proposed, ie troop reductiions, territorial changes, Reconciliation Commission etc.

There is either a "yes" or "no" for the whole plan. If there is any way to vote "yes" for the things I like only let me know.

There is no need to repeat ourselves. The same way I understand that you support this plan because it benefits you, you should understand that the reason I do not support it is because it doesn't benefit us, but it harms us for the reasons I mentioned 100 times already.

I proposed what solution would be ok for me and I suppose you reject it? (even with the 30 years transitional period). If you have any proposals that fit within democracy, federation, human rights and a truly united Cyprus then I am ready to discuss them.

Otherwise lets just agree that we disagree and lets stop waisting our time.