Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

TCs and GCs have common Cypriot culture which might turn into a Cypriot nation in the future but at the moment there's no Cypriot nation.

Well, here is another Denktashist allegation. “The only Cypriots I know, he said, are the donkeys.” Unfortunately I am just a donkey!

The modern definition of a nation, at least as far as the western (American and European) conception is concerned, is the following:
a. A relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually independent government; a country.
b. The territory occupied by such a group of people: All across the nation, people are voting their representatives out.
For example the American nation, the British nation etc.

There is also the traditional (outdated) definition, which of course is the following: “A group people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality.”
Even under this definition, you (TCs) can simultaneously be classified as members of a Cypriot nation, since you share common history for the last 400 years and share a considerable number of common customs with GCs; and also be classified as members of the Turkish nation, since you share also common customs and language.
As for origin, we need to make a DNA study to prove how much you share with the Turkish nation and how much with the rest of the Cypriot nation (GCs.) I know the answer but I will keep it to myself. However, as I said above, this is the traditional (outdated) definition.

For the definitions look at:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=nation

But as you know, we're trying to hold on to this island despite major difficulties over the years. Doesn't that show you that we indeed love our country?

No, I don not dispute your love for Cyprus. What I said in my posting is that the majority (not all) of TCs, if only two choices were given to them, i.e. to choose between their love for Cyprus and their Turkish-ness, they would have most likely chosen the second.
For GCs it rather seems to be the opposite, i.e. the majority would have chosen their love for Cyprus and their Cypriotness, rather than their Greek-ness. Although perhaps a good number of them might be reluctant to admit it publicly.

If your love for Cyprus was as much as you wish to make it appear, you wouldn’t so un- reluctantly accept the Anan plan which indirectly implies (forces) you to permanently restrict your political and residence rights into the 29% of your country, in order to protect your Turkishness.

[Kifeas]

GCs make every attempt not to institutionalize such notions? How?

Well if you read the constitution of the Greek Cypriot constituent state, we didn’t make any reference to principles of any prominent Greek figurehead (not because we do not have any,) set aside any references to the principles of the founder (like Atatürk) of a controversial and ethnocentric ideology (like Kemalism.) This is what I mean by institutionalising something. To make something, part (centre) of your state policy. We even went as far as accepting the Turkish language as a potentially “second official” of the GCCS, although the number of Turkish Cypriots that are expected to reside within the GCCS are not expected to be any significant. On the contrary, you explicitly said in your TCCS constitution that the ONLY official language of your state will be the Turkish one, despite the fact that as much as 20%-30% of its population will be GCs.

How do you comment on the above?

Further more, should all these hilarious slogans that you write on the Mountains and on the border entrance to the north be part of the TC culture, presumably even after a solution? Aren’t they part of the Kemalist ideological mind framing? Aren’t they evidence of a banal and kitsch cultural orientation?

Have you seen anything similar in the South or anywhere else in Europe?

Sorry Insan, I know it doesn't depent on you personally!

[Alexandros Lordos]

We even went as far as accepting the Turkish language as a potentially “second official” of the GCCS, although the number of Turkish Cypriots that are expected to reside within the GCCS are not expected to be any significant. On the contrary, you explicitly said in your TCCS constitution that the ONLY official language of your state will be the Turkish one, despite the fact that as much as 20%-30% of its population will be GCs.

Kifeas, this is interesting to me. Do you have precise references from the GCCS and the TCCS constitution?

[Kifeas]

Kifeas wrote:
We even went as far as accepting the Turkish language as a potentially “second official” of the GCCS, although the number of Turkish Cypriots that are expected to reside within the GCCS are not expected to be any significant. On the contrary, you explicitly said in your TCCS constitution that the ONLY official language of your state will be the Turkish one, despite the fact that as much as 20%-30% of its population will be GCs.



Kifeas, this is interesting to me. Do you have precise references from the GCCS and the TCCS constitution?

I have to read them again to spot them, but I am sure I read in the GCCS constitution that there is provision aiming to accomodate the Turkish language, presumably if some significant number of TCs will become it's internal citizens. As for the TCCS constitution, it is explicitly stated that the Turkish language will be the only official. Furthermore, to be elected in any post, from Azas to an MP, one must know the official language of the TCCS. Are you surprised? I think you shouldn't!

[Kifeas]

page 2 of the GCCS contritution

Code: Select all

Article 4
- Language
1. The official language of the Greek Cypriot State is Greek. A Law may make provision for the use of the Turkish and other languages.
2. Legislative, executive and administrative acts and documents shall be drawn up in the official language and shall, where under the express provisions of this Constitution promulgation is required, be promulgated by publication in the Gazette in the official language.
3. Other languages may be used as means of communication and instruction.
4. The official languages of the United Cyprus Republic shall be taught to all secondary school students, commencing no later than three years after entry into force of this Constitution.

Page 9 of the TCCS constitution on the official language.

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The Unity, Official Language, Anthem and the Capital of the State Article 3
1) The State is an indivisible whole with its people living in its boundaries.
2) The official language is Turkish.
3) The State has its own flag and an Anthem. The Turkish flag may be flown in the territory of the State subject to the relevant provisions of the
Foundation Agreement and the constitution of the United Cyprus Republic. 4) The capital of the State is Lefkoşa.

Page 12 of the TCCS constitution on the status of minorities.

Code: Select all

The Status of Minorities
Article 14
The State protects the rights of religious minorities, namely the Maronite, the Latin and the Armenian, residing within its boundaries and of the Greek Cypriots residing in the villages in Karpaz area, as stated in the Foundation Agreement and the Constitution of the United Cyprus Republic.

What about the Greek Cypriots that were meant to live in other areas except the Karpaz area?


Page 31 of the TCCS constitution on who is eligible to be elected in any public office, including Azas in ones village.

Code: Select all

The Right to Elect, to be Elected and to Participate in a Public Referendum
Article 74
(1) It shall be the right and duty of every Cypriot citizen permanently residing in the State who has reached the age of eighteen years to vote at State elections and referenda.
(2)Every Cypriot citizen permanently residing in the State who has reached the age of 18 years and has command of its official language shall have the right to be elected to public offices of the State. To be elected, such a person shall ordinarily have resided in the State for at least three years. This right shall be regulated by law.

How will the command of the official language is going to be measured?
Every Greek Cypriot candidate even for Azas will have to pass the exams?

[turkcyp]

Dear Kifeas,

[Dear Kifeas I know my ancestry, and most probably there lies somewhere in it some Greek blood. Does that matter, because there is also a high chance that somewhere in your blood lies Turkish blood too. After more than 1000 (400) years of living side by side and living together (1000 years since Turks started settling in Asia Minor, and 400 years in Cyprus) do you really think that any of us is really pure Greek or Turkish.

And are you really going to claim that what determines one ethnicity and self-identity is DNA. C’mon. Hitler has got Jewish blood in him but this I guess did not make him any Jew. May be a disgusting example, but it explains what I mean.

If I tell you that I am Turkish Cypriot, this is not because I have Turkish blood in me because it is how I choose to define myself. I feel I have more in common with Turks than Greeks, and unlike what you think they is not a nation called Cypriots. You are either Greek Cypriot or Turkish Cypriot. Of course you may choose to differ that is prerogative.

Having said that, TCs do not think that they can fit completely in mainland Turkish society as well. (they may fit in to that society better and easier than fitting in GC or Greek society but that is not the problem here). They know that they are more Turk than Greek but also they know that they are not the Turks in Turkey. There are real differences between TCs and Turks in terms of mentality, the way of life, and attitudes. The same differences though exist in a bigger scale with GCs and Greeks. (Actually I believe that this is the general belief in majority GCs as well. You may deny it and say that majority of GCs think they are closer to TCs than Greeks, but you would be deceiving yourself).

So it is very normal for a TC to think himself as Turkish but not want to live in Turkey where there are major differences. (the same way many GCs think themselves Greek but do not want to live in mainland Greek society). Coming to Cypriotness. Unfortunately Cypriotness is more of term for citizenship then identity. We have not experienced what have happened in USA in the last 250 years where we have shed our old identities of English, German, Dutch, and start calling ourselves American. This takes time. It is no coincidence that there are more differences between Greek, Armenian, Italian, Mexian Americans and the English, German and Dutch Americans. The second groups already have been in America longer and have already managed to shed those old identities but the previous group start migrating to America later and still did not shed those identities. 100 years down the road I bet you nobody in America would say I am a Greek American but only say I am an American and truly become a part of American nation.

This nation building process had never took place in Cyprus. We have never intermingled in terms of society ( every inter community marriage has been renounced by one side so they had too choose one side over the other). We need time to do this. Of course trust me it is much harder for us, as GCs and TCs, right now to do that nation forming thing in Cyprus, but I believe we can in time.

It is much harder for us because we have our old identities such a close proximity and at the same time we did not migrate to Cyprus running from oppression and searching for a better life so therefore we are not right now that ready to give up our old identities. This will take time. Things should not be pushed on us though, because forcing forms a backlash. You should let people shed their old identities with their will in time.

About the facts about pluralism, political equality, democracy, can you tell me one strict definition of pluralism, democracy and political equality. There is none. It is all different shades of Grey. When you claim to give us democracy and political equality and when we refuse what you give us as democratic and politically equal, it is not because we do not think it is grey but yellow. It is because we think it is not the shade of grey we like to see.

One thing is right though. Do not get annoyed with all these arguments. Actually let me take it back. Do get annoyed. I do not care if you get annoyed because certainly I got annoyed with your definition as well. You have all right to define the way you seem fit and so do I, and here in an open forum we are sharing these definitions. Of course it is just normal that both sides get annoyed. The important thing though is to keep the discussion in the parameters of civility and respect.

And there are a lot of people in this forum, from both sides, that fail to do that and I hate to see you become one of those people, because you have come into form and earned respect of a lot of people by showing desire to listen, by showing respect to others thoughts, by debating in civility.


About your opinions on Kemalism. We have discussed this in another topic, and we have given you the explanation on why and how (after which modifications) TC accepted Kemalism. But you seem to love generalizations so keep on doing it.

You attacking Kemalism is like me attacking Christianity. (I am not saying Kemalism is a religion but it is a set of ideas like Christianity). Kemalist ideology has many faces and come into existence under so different circumstances that does not exist anymore. Some of its ideas are still valid today even in the most developed countries like secularism, equality of woman, republicanism, pluralism but some of its ideas are so antiquated that it should be sent to the trash bin of the history, like etatism, nationalism.

The problem with al lot of people who claim to adhere the Kemalism ideology, ( and I can safely say this is probably the majority), fail to realize this need for change and adaptation in Kemalist ideology and accept it as dogma just like a religion or Christianity.

So some people who accept this Kemalist ideology as dogma and accept sit as given without justifying the need to change act exactly like radical religious groups. The problem though is not at the Kemalist or Christian ideology, both of which I thing has a lot of room for change and improvement depending on times we live in, but the problem is with the people who fail to see this and refuse to engage in that change. So you look at those people and form those people deduct that Kemalist ideology is bad and make an extreme generalization by saying anyone who believes in Kemalist ideology should be bad too. It is the same me looking at religious right in Christianity and saying all Christians are bad. (p.s the above example if Christinaity is just an example you can replce it with Islam, Judaism, or anything which is not religion at all but simple a set of ideas that is accepted as dogma by some people like Capitalism, Communism, etc. etc.)

So for you too look what Kemalist ideology said 90 years ago, and also by looking at those people who fail to see the need to change in Kemalist ideology and turning back and making generalizations on TCs without even realizing how TCs interpret Kemalist ideology is quite frankly a shame on you and shows lack of analytical thinking and and full of narrow-mindedness which fails to differentiate between people and immediatly over-generalize.

Take care,

[Kifeas]

Dear Kifeas I know my ancestry, and most probably there lies somewhere in it some Greek blood. Does that matter, because there is also a high chance that somewhere in your blood lies Turkish blood too. After more than 1000 (400) years of living side by side and living together (1000 years since Turks started settling in Asia Minor, and 400 years in Cyprus) do you really think that any of us is really pure Greek or Turkish.

And are you really going to claim that what determines one ethnicity and self-identity is DNA. C’mon. Hitler has got Jewish blood in him but this I guess did not make him any Jew. May be a disgusting example, but it explains what I mean.

If I tell you that I am Turkish Cypriot, this is not because I have Turkish blood in me because it is how I choose to define myself. I feel I have more in common with Turks than Greeks, and unlike what you think they is not a nation called Cypriots. You are either Greek Cypriot or Turkish Cypriot. Of course you may choose to differ that is prerogative.

Dear friend,
I think you do not need to write all these about your identity.
I fully recognise your (anyone’s) right to self -identify your self.

I was just commenting, in my posting, on the two definitions of a nation that I quoted above from a well-known dictionary. I was just comparing the characteristics of the second interpretation and trying to use project them in the case of TCs. I think you missed the spirit of that posting.

Any way, I am the last person that has any intention on imposing to anyone how to define or identify himself. That’s why I refrained from saying what I believe the possible results of a DNA analysis would be.

[insan]

How will the command of the official language is going to be measured?
Every Greek Cypriot candidate even for Azas will have to pass the exams?

Kifeas, it is obvious that TCCS constitution needs improvements. Perhaps there are things in GCCS constitution that needs improvement as well. I didn't examined them.

I just remember that there were debates about whther to make a new constitution for TCCS or bring the existing "TRNC" constitution and ammend it later on. I remember there was a time limit in those days therefore they might base it on the existing "TRNC" constitution; hastily and carelessly.

[Kifeas]

Kifeas, it is obvious that TCCS constitution needs improvements. Perhaps there are things in GCCS constitution that needs improvement as well. I didn't examined them.

I just remember that there were debates about whther to make a new constitution for TCCS or bring the existing "TRNC" constitution and ammend it later on. I remember there was a time limit in those days therefore they might base it on the existing "TRNC" constitution; hastily and carelessly.

Thank you very much Insan!

[Kifeas]

Dear TurkCyp,

Unfortunately I will not comment on all of your last posting because I find it to be outside both the letter and the spirit of what I tried to show in my relevant postings. Instead, I would kindly ask you to peek up any one of my postings and quote piece by piece the issues that you wish to comment on. In this way I will be able to counter comment your comments on my comments. I think this is the fairest way out.

On Kemalism.
Although Kemalism is a political ideology and Christianity is a relegion and therefore there is little relation between the two, you are free to comment or even attack Christianity, provided you use examples that carry some controversy or justify your claims. In my posting, I did attack Kemalism but with specific examples in order to justify my claims. You also admit that there are negative issues in it.

I never made any such generalizations that a.) Everything about Kemalism is wrong. b.) Anyone who claims to accept or believe in Kemalism is bad.

However, since you admit yourself that Kemalism is a problematic ideology and is interpreted and practiced in many different ways, do you accept that it is a gross mistake for it to have been quoted in the TCCS constitution? If yes, please say it!

Do you recognize that these slogans that children are called upon saying in schools and also painted on mountains and other places, are rightfully a cause of misunderstandings on the aims of Kemalism as an ideology? If yes, please say it!



On the definition of what is a nation.
You have only chosen to comment on the second definition that I posted, although I specifically mentioned that this is the traditional and outdated definition. My intention was to concentrate on the first definition, which is the one that is generally accepted nowadays, when someone refers to this term. What are your comments on the first (contemporary) definition, which by the way was given as an answer to MeteCyp’s previous comments on my posting. Do you agree on that?

Lastly, my intention here is not to cause anger to anyone, or insult anyone’s believes or ideology. My intention is to bring up issues, in a critical spirit, that are of some significance and concern to both communities, but more importantly to the Greek Cypriot community.