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we loot the territory we occupy in the north since 74:Levent

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby insan » Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:48 pm

Estimating the value of that market is particularly difficult, but we should consider insurance claims in the UK for stolen artworks, which amount to about £300 million. If only a small proportion of those stolen works found their way into the illegal market, a great volume of money would be involved. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam gave a few examples, and I want to add some of my own to the debate to show the scale of the problem that we are dealing with. In 1997, an arrest in Germany brought to light hundreds of icons that had been stolen from 46 to 50 churches in Cyprus.

Mr. Dismore: It is interesting that my hon. Friend has referred to that incident. I suspect that there may not be time for me to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and that was one of the issues to which I wanted to refer in particular. As my hon. Friend knows, I have an interest in Cyprus. I have seen the frescos that were looted from the occupied zone in northern Cyprus, and what happened is important. I pay tribute to the late Dino Leventis, who was one of the great movers behind attempts to deal with the illicit art trade, especially in Byzantine artefacts and remains. Sadly, he is no longer with us, but he played a great part in dealing with these problems.

Shona McIsaac: That intervention shows the nature of the problem. Cyprus has been a particular difficulty, given the political set-up there. Political problems and instability can create an environment in which such thefts, plundering and looting can occur.

In 1998, a police raid on a villa in Sicily revealed antiquities stolen from just one site that were worth more than £20 million. I visited Sicily last year, and I was astonished by the lax attitude taken by the Italian authorities in some of their monuments. As I was going round Roman villas and Greek temples, people were picking at the edges of Roman mosaics and putting tiles in their pockets, but the guards did not bat an eyelid. At the Greek temples, people were picking up small stones and putting them in their backpacks. I was amazed that no one seemed to regard picking up a bit here and a bit there as a problem. Much art and artefacts are stolen from sites in Italy, and tend to find their way on to the illegal and illicit markets in London.

Mayan sites are a particular problem in South America. It is estimated that about 1,000 pieces of Mayan pottery and other artefacts go on to the markets in the USA every month. Many sites in South America are looted and plundered.



http://www.culturalpolicycouncil.org/re ... mmons1.htm
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Postby insan » Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:05 pm

metecyp wrote:
mikkie wrote:Sorry Insan. There is NO EXCUSE for what is going on in the north. Any self respecting person should accept that what is going on in the north is wrong. All you can do is blame it on politcal motives of other people that have no control of what happens in the north.

I agree with mikkie here. There is no excuse for looting even if the same happenned in the south. I'm disturbed more about the cultural looting. Many churches were looted after 1974. Many icons that belonged to Cyprus were sold to foreigners and nobody did anything about it in the north. It's a shame for TCs that many GC churches in the north are in horrible condition. Maybe it's not state sponsored to neglect GC churches, maybe it's simply lack of money but some churches are used as animal barns and there's no excuse for that whatsoever.



I'm not trying to excuse the lootings. I'm trying to show the other side of the medallion that GC leadership ignore and abuse it for propaganda purposes.
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Postby insan » Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:08 pm

Kifeas wrote:Insan, if you do not have a ready list for the 116 mosques and shrines that were destroyed by GCs, it is not a shame to just say that you need more time to investigate it and compile such a list. I didn’t tell you to give it to me now. You can take your time. I have no problem.

By the way, I am already aware of all these links that you provided in your previous posting. Why did you post them here? Are they instead of the list that I asked for?????



Desecrated mosques by Greek Cypriot extremists until 20 July 1974

Ömerge Mosque
Bayraktar Mosque
Tahtakala Mosque
Araplar Mosque
Dükkanlar Önü Mosque
Zeytinlik Mosque
Aþaðý Deftera Mosque
Aþaðý Lakadamya Mosque
Türkeli Mosque
Küçük Kaymaklý Mosque
Yýlmazköy Mosque
Dereliköy Mosque
Erenköy Mosque
Gaziler Mosque
Dereli Mosque
Demirhan Mosque
Minareliköy Mosque
Matyat Mosque
Madenliköy Mosque
Katalyonda Mosque
Somolof Mosque
Akaca Mosque
Güzelyurt Mosque
Orunda Mosque
Peristerona Mosque
Denya Mosque
Kurtboðan Mosque
Bozdað Mosque
Flasu Mosque
Mansur Mosque
Dali Mosque
Solya Mosque
Eylence Mosque
Balýkesir Mosque
Arpalýk Mosque
Aybifan Mosque
Mamundali Mosque
Ceyhan Mosque
Yuvalý Mosque
Ovalýk Mosque
Çatalköy Mosque
Beţparmak Mosque
Lapta Mosque
Kömürcü Mosque
Karþýyaka Mosque
Tepebaþý Mosque
Ţirinevler Mosque
Hz. Ömer Shrine Mosque
Girne Mosque
Aða Cafer Pasha Mosque
Acemzade Mecidi Mosque
Zahuri Mosque
Koraku Mosque
Aredyu Mosque
Gürpýnar Mosque
Linu Mosque
Yaðmuralan Mosque
Süleymaniye Mosque
Selçuklu Mosque
Kuzucuk Mosque
Çayýrova Mosque
Mutluyaka Mosque
Paţaköy Mosque
Alaniçi (Magosa) Mosque
Geçitkale (Magosa) Mosque
Adaçay Mosque
Boðaztepe Mosque
Pýnarlý Mosque
Atlýlar Mosque
Bahçalar (Yeni Ýskele) Mosque
Yedikonuk Mosque
Elmalý Mosque
Taþlýca Mosque
Ceylân Mosque
Alsandik Mosque
Yerovasý Mosque
Baðlarbaþý Mosque
Silifke Mosque
Çeliktaţ (Limasol) Mosque
Baf Mosque
Eledyu Mosque
Amarget Mosque
Aktepe Mosque
Akkargi Mosque
Poli Mosque
Hulu Mosque
Girittera Mosque
Olukönü Mosque
Çýnarlý Mosque
Aþaðý Baf Mosque
Haci Mehmet Tekke Mosque
Turabi Mosque and Shrine
Düzova (Larnaka) Mosque
Akkor Mosque
Aksu Mosque
Maroni Mosque
Kalavason Mosque
Lefkara Mosque
Çamlýbel (Larnaka) Mosque
Akhisar Mosque
Ummu Haram Mosque
Aplenda Mosque
Alâ-tirke Mosque
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Postby Kifeas » Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:50 pm

Are these mosques destroyed as you suggested or simply not adequately maintained? What do you mean desegregated? Does the fact that some of them may have parts or areas that need more maintenance, means that they are destroyed or desegregated? Have they being demolished? Have they no windows and doors like charges in the north? Have they being converted into church, like some churches in the north were converted into mosques? Have they been converted into stables for animals? Have any valuables inside them being stolen and sold in auctions abroad?
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Postby insan » Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:08 pm

Kifeas wrote:Are these mosques destroyed as you suggested or simply not adequately maintained? What do you mean desegregated? Does the fact that some of them may have parts or areas that need more maintenance, means that they are destroyed or desegregated? Have they being demolished? Have they no windows and doors like charges in the north? Have they being converted into church, like some churches in the north were converted into mosques? Have they been converted into stables for animals? Have any valuables inside them being stolen and sold in auctions abroad?



According to the narratives of TCs who visited their villages afterwards the opening of the gates, all of the mosques were desecreted and ruined. I didn't personally investigate the states mosques.

If you trying to say that TCs desecreted and ruined the cultural and religous heritage of GCs worse than the GCs did to the religious and cultural heritage of TCs; put it staright.
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Postby Kifeas » Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:14 pm

Insan wrote:If you trying to say that TCs desecreted and ruined the cultural and religous heritage of GCs worse than the GCs did to the religious and cultural heritage of TCs; put it staright.


I do not know Insan, what do you think?
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Postby insan » Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:25 pm

Kifeas wrote:
Insan wrote:If you trying to say that TCs desecreted and ruined the cultural and religous heritage of GCs worse than the GCs did to the religious and cultural heritage of TCs; put it staright.


I do not know Insan, what do you think?


It seems to me that you are trying to say that TC extremists caused more damage to GC religious and cultural heritage than the GC extremists did to TC religious and cultural heritage. Did I correctly understand you?


Perhaps, you are right however I didn't calculate the damage each side caused to each other. And I don't think either one calculated the how much to damage and how much to protect. They damaged and looted what is available.
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Postby Kifeas » Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:51 pm

Insan wrote:Perhaps, you are right however I didn't calculate the damage each side caused to each other. And I don't think either one calculated the how much to damage and how much to protect. They damaged and looted what is available.


I didn't calculate it ether Insan.
Whatever is done, is done!
Let's see what we do in the future. This should be our real concern!
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Postby pantelis » Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:02 pm

Now you answer me Pantelis. Did some GCs loot the TC properties when TC fled to enclaves? Did some GCs loot TC properties afterwards 1974? Assume it was GC community under embargoes in South and substantial amount of land and properties in South belonged to TCs. Would the situation in South be any different than the current situation in North? You know the answers of these questions well but what you are trying to do is simply propaganda.

I well aware of your stance that whenever you need to distract attentions of people away from the core of the problem, you bring propaganda as much as you can find. And I'm sure as usual you won't answer the questions I've asked.


Insan,
I don't read everything that is posted here, I don't have the time to do that.
The looting of the contents of the houses, both GC and TC, is the least of our problem.
The looting of our human rights, of our dignity, of our identity, signed and certified by international organizations like the UN and those behind them, are more of concern to me.
Justice, one day, will prevail, because whatever crimes one tolerates on others one day, he will have tolerate on himself the day after.
This is The Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
The rule is good for Turks and Greeks and Americans and Moslems and Christians and....everybody!
By continuing to do "wrong" on other people with the excuse that "they did it to us first", the suffering is perpetuated for all.
The TCs know what is wrong and what is right, with the Cyprus situation right now. By continuing to stay on the "wrong path", the situation doesn’t remain bad only for the GCs, but for themselves as well. Does any TC individual have the power to change anything? Probably not! If one stands out, if he tries to defy the regime’s policy, he does not last to see the next day. Sooner or later S. Levent will have an “accident” somewhere and the regimes problems will be “over”. Right?
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Postby pantelis » Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:13 pm

...and one more thing.
As I look out of my window, this sunny snow-covered (we got 2 feet on Sunday) April day, I see my yard and yards of my neighbors. I don't see any fences. My snow touches their snow and my grass blends with theirs. If anyone has a fenced area, it is because they want to keep their dogs under control.
If you keep your "dogs" in Cyprus under control and we keep ours, we wouldn't need any fences either.
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