Cyprus-Forum.com

[alexISS]

Yeah the Germans exterminated how many millions?

Amazing culture too, some of the greatest thinkers and musicians, and that is just the tip of the iceberg, yet did it stop them?

You argument is absolutely unfounded and ridiculous. I don't think even you know what you are trying to prove here.

One BIG difference between Turkey and Germany is that the German people have sincerely apologized for all their crimes while the Turks are actually PROUD of theirs

[shahmaran]

Yet more unfounded rubbish, now how do you come to that conclusion that we are all "proud" about our past?

There is no "big difference", there are still people who are Nazi symphatizers, so the point is that the so called "most cultured" nations of the world are also the ones who committed the biggest atrocities EVER recorded in history.

I guess the more advanced you are the more evil you can be including exterminating native people, it is human nature, it doesn't specially take for one to be a Turk. Yet it does take a very objective outlook on man kind to see this, which you obviously cannot do due to your extreme bigoted views.

Yet more proof of how ridiculous your stance really is.

[alexISS]

I'll give you the most popular example Shahmaran, are the Turks proud of the capture of Constantinople or not? Simple question

[shahmaran]

You mean Ottomans?

Your idea of the Turks, dissolved a century ago. How many other people conquered Istanbul before?

Were they not all proud?

There were further attempts to re-conquer it not that long ago either and by very "civilised" nations too, which you simply brush to a side by claiming that it was a "puppet government". Yet it was the coalition of a few nations.

Now, had they been successful in doing so, would you be proud of them or would you stick to your current beliefs and advocate some "universal ethics" about how wrong it is to conquer other peoples lands, regardless of the fact that they are your own people? I very much doubt it, yet you are refusing to drop this hypocritical argument.

You have a very evasive manner that allows you to divert certain key points by bringing in ridiculous examples, kind of like the Blue Mosque one

[alexISS]

You mean Ottomans?

Your idea of the Turks, dissolved a century ago. How many other people conquered Istanbul before?

Were they not all proud?

There were further attempts to re-conquer it not that long ago either and by very "civilised" nations too, which you simply brush to a side by claiming that it was a "puppet government". Yet it was the coalition of a few nations.

Now, had they been successful in doing so, would you be proud of them or would you stick to your current beliefs and advocate some "universal ethics" about how wrong it is to conquer other peoples lands, regardless of the fact that they are your own people? I very much doubt it, yet you are refusing to drop this hypocritical argument.

You have a very evasive manner that allows you to divert certain key points by bringing in ridiculous examples, kind of like the Blue Mosque one

You're missing the point, again. There's nothing to celebrate about capturing a city that was never yours and killing its people, there's nothing to celebrate about an aggressive military campaign that brought death, destruction and a rollback of a few centuries. Turkish schoolboys daydream of Mehmed II, Mustapha Kemal and the "heroic battles" of the "undefeated", Turkish nation as they are taught in school every day. The Turkish government is nurturing generations of racist extremists that you can see flocking in protests every now and then, burning mock-ups of the Patriarch and Greek or Armenian flags. In another post, in another thread reg the Istanbul pogrom, I was wondering why noone was surprised that the Turkish government was able to gather 300,000 Turks willing to kill and destroy everything Greek in a matter of hours.

Having Turkey as a neighbour is a big drawback. This is not a vague statement, I can actually feel the consequences in my everyday life. My country is forced to spend billions on a stupid arms race to be able to defend itself against the Turkish aggressiveness. In my military service all our training was based on scenarios of a Turkish invasion, since Turkey openly threatens Greece with war AS WE SPEAK. The militaristic regime you call your government is what I despise, that and the turkish extremism. Other than those I have no problem with Turkey and Turks

[shahmaran]

Oh yeah and Turkey is the only country with extreme nationalist, save it will ya, i have just given you examples of very recent attempts of invasions by the Western world, that you yourself agree that they are not anything to be proud of, yet here you are still boasting on about how violent the Turks are, wake up man, you are no better! Of course the Turks will be proud of keeping the one force that has literally destroyed this planet out of her borders, the god damn Imperialists!!! So they have every right to be proud indeed because not many managed to do so!

And how can Turkey threaten you, your leader was here very recently and they are trying to improve our relations, it is the Greek navy that usually threatens our fisherman in the Aegean, and recently disclosed in the CIA records that it was also Greece who was planning an attack through Thrace in the event of a Cyprus invasion by Turkey in 1974.

Lets not even go into the Megali Idea.

Face it, Greeks are just as opportunist and the moment they see the chance they will not hesitate for an instance, and will invade, kill and burn (as they have done) in order to get these so called "holy lands" back.

So what are you boasting on about?

I am starting to think that you have a very distorted and bigoted view of the world!

Either that or you are just set out to insult an entire nation no matter how unfounded your claims are.

[miltiades]

Why are you two so obsessed with two foreign countries !!!
Lets have something said about OUR country , CYPRUS .

[Tim Drayton]

Tim,

Undeniably there are intelligent and able people in Turkey. I think what Alexiss is alluding to is a certain heavy handedness we see in official Turkish practice. A good example being the official publication of the TRNC about Lapithos which I saw a few years back, it did not mention the word "Greek" once! The web site on Salamis did the same.

Friends who visited Ephesos two years ago described how the guides told them of "pre Turkic" people and the Hittites who built the city. Little things like these show this heavy handedness and this is what is worrying. As is the use of the word Rum, which in itself is an act of denial. A nation like Turkey should have the self confidence to accept the realities of the region in which it exists.

In Greece, at Ioannina, the guides will point to the islet in the Middle of the Lake and tell you very clearly that the refuge there was built by the Turkish Pasha for his Greek mistress. Simple, clear stuff.

Hi Nikitas,

Sure, just because I am condemning one set of uninformed, chauvinist views, does not mean that I am condoning the chauvinism of others. For many years there was a conscious programme by the Denktash regime and its sponsors to deny the existence of any Hellenic heritage in the north of Cyprus as if this area had been populated solely by Turkish Cypriots for the past 450 years. I find this and the political motives behind it despicable. A new semi-official guide book to the "TRNC" has appeared in the Talat era, and this makes extensive reference to Greek monuments with many colour pictures of churches (even if some of these are referred to as "icon museums"!) and monasteries. So let's also give credit where it is due.

You are describing the individual actions of a guide in Ephesos, and there is no official policy of denial about ancient Greek monuments in Turkey itself. I am sure that at some time a nationalistic tourist guide somewhere in Greece has deliberatley glossed over the existence of some Ottoman monument!

I am puzzled by your objection to the word "Rum" which I thought corresponds to the Greek word "romios". How would you like Greek Cypriots to be referred to? Hopefully not "gavur"! (joke)

[Nikitas]

Rum, Romios, was originally a way to deny Hellenic roots to the population the Ottomans conquered. The condescending attitude was also displayed by the Romans, as you will see when you read Cicero and Augustus.

Everyone has these high falluting notions of the ancient Greeks and once they get close and see that the Greeks were regular folk and not philosophers from birth they start theorising as to how the Greeks disappeared and these people are something else. The Romans did it, then the Ottomans and later people like Falmereyer (spelling?). Lately it has changed and they call the mainland Greeks Yunan, but GC remain Rum Kibris. Former Greek foreign undersecretaty Kapsis used to take the piss when meeting Turkish officials by correcting this to Yunan Kibris.

[DT.]

Oh yeah and Turkey is the only country with extreme nationalist, save it will ya, i have just given you examples of very recent attempts of invasions by the Western world, that you yourself agree that they are not anything to be proud of, yet here you are still boasting on about how violent the Turks are, wake up man, you are no better! Of course the Turks will be proud of keeping the one force that has literally destroyed this planet out of her borders, the god damn Imperialists!!! So they have every right to be proud indeed because not many managed to do so!

And how can Turkey threaten you, your leader was here very recently and they are trying to improve our relations, it is the Greek navy that usually threatens our fisherman in the Aegean, and recently disclosed in the CIA records that it was also Greece who was planning an attack through Thrace in the event of a Cyprus invasion by Turkey in 1974.

Lets not even go into the Megali Idea.

Face it, Greeks are just as opportunist and the moment they see the chance they will not hesitate for an instance, and will invade, kill and burn (as they have done) in order to get these so called "holy lands" back.

So what are you boasting on about?

I am starting to think that you have a very distorted and bigoted view of the world!

Either that or you are just set out to insult an entire nation no matter how unfounded your claims are.

Shah are you not aware that Turkey has an issued Casus Belli on Greece as we speak?

If Greece extends its sea border to 12 miles like every other country in the world Turkey will declare war.