Cyprus-Forum.com

[shahmaran]

Blablabla, you are not in a position to call the shots anymore Piratis, you have lost that right the minute you deprived us from our rights, it is done and get over it!

What you have to do now, is drop this stupid attitude about us not being invited or being indigenous or whatever and think of another strategy that TRULY depends on equality which is not based on such bullshit because that is not the way to make neighbours is it brother?

You have partially lost and that is a fact (and so have we), but the question is how much more are you willing to loose before you get into your head that we rightfully belong here and no where else?

Because from this point on we are not likely to loose much anymore, we will just keep growing and growing into a demographic catastrophe where one day you will only have the Turks to bargain with and they will rather die than give you an inch of sympathy, because they wont have to give you anything, since you will have no cards left to blackmail anyone anymore.

[Piratis]

I think, Piratis you are deliberately trying to dilute the analogy by again bringing in the unfounded "indigenous" crap that yo have no proof of, it is all you got so i am not surprised, it is the very foundation of your claims so i can understand why it is so hard for you to let go. If 1000 years is not enough for one to have rights on lands then there is no point talking to you anymore because there is no way out.

We have as much right here as you, so do the Kurds in Turkey as the rest of the country, the fact that you support their will for independence while dismissing ours is a very good example of your double standard understanding of "freedom" and "human rights". I guess its only OK to pretend to be such a righteous man when its not your country in question, I'm glad you have exposed your true self.

Apparently you pretend you do not understand. Lets try again:

For the Kurds in Turkey their land is the Kurdistan territory where they existed before Turks arrived there and where they are the majority. I am sure there is a minority of Kurds in Ankara and in most other Turkish cities. Did I say that a free Kurdistan should include every city where there is a Kurdish minority in it? I didn't.

Similarly the Turks should have their independence over the territories than belong to them, and Cypriots to have their own independences in the territories that belongs to them (=Cyprus).

Then the minority of Turks in Kurdistan can continue living in Kurdistan as a minority and equal Kurdistan citizens, the minority of Kurds in Turkey can continue to live there as equal citizens, and in the exact same way you can live in free Cyprus as equal citizens as well.

So where did you see the double standards??? Everybody rules their own territories in a democratic way with the minorities proportionately represented. The exact same is for Kurds, Turks and Cypriots.

On the other hand what you support is to steal land that does not belong to you, ethnically cleanse it from the majority of its population and then rule it. Thats not called "independence", thats called "invasion and occupation of land that belongs to others". And I ask you again: Based on what you want to create some "Turkish state" on land that belongs by 82% to Greek Cypriots?

[shahmaran]

OK so you do not only claim that we are TURKS rather than TC's, you also claim that the Kurds have been there before Turks, Armenians, Syrians, Iranians and Iraqis, since they want land from all of them and you are saying that they should get it, because that is the proposed Kurdish state.

So in order for you to support your silly stance, you have also started changing the tune about ethnic concentrations, fair enough, lets have it your way, so you believe if there is a serious majority of a certain ethnic group in a particular area who is willing to be independent then they should be allowed to, given that they will respect the minority?

Is that what you are saying?

Its funny because you seem to see Cyprus as an indivisible piece of land that should be Greek alone (even tho it is divided and not only Greek) but totally OK with the division of Turkey and its neighbours which are not divided lands and are internationally recognized as they are who also have a history that is MUCH older than Cyprus and its people.

That is where i see the double standards.

[Piratis]

Blablabla, you are not in a position to call the shots anymore Piratis, you have lost that right the minute you deprived us from our rights, it is done and get over it!

What you have to do now, is drop this stupid attitude about us not being invited or being indigenous or whatever and think of another strategy that TRULY depends on equality which is not based on such bullshit because that is not the way to make neighbours is it brother?

You have partially lost and that is a fact (and so have we), but the question is how much more are you willing to loose before you get into your head that we rightfully belong here and no where else?

Because from this point on we are not likely to loose much anymore, we will just keep growing and growing into a demographic catastrophe where one day you will only have the Turks to bargain with and they will rather die than give you an inch of sympathy, because they wont have to give you anything, since you will have no cards left to blackmail anyone anymore.

I never said that you do not belong here. I only remind you of how you came here because you talk as if we have brought you to this island against your will and forced you to live alongside the "evil" GCs.

Equality means each citizen to be equal to another without racist discriminations. I answered this in more detail some time ago:

Political equality as it is realized in the whole democratic world means that all citizens of a country are equal without racist or other discriminations. This way there is just one class of citizens, which are all equal among each other.

This is what we want, and of course nobody denied to TCs to have their own parties within the parliament like all PR democracies. Nor we ever asked for them to have any less rights than we do.

What TCs want though is not political equality as it exists in all democratic countries. What they want is exactly the opposite: Dividing people along ethnic lines in order to create two categories of citizens, with GCs being the 2nd category ones. There is no kind of democratic country where the people and power are divided along ethnic lines. The last such regime was the Apartheid of South Africa. Maybe you find justified the claim of the Whites of South Africa that they were not a minority (although they were) and they ruled the country against the wishes of the great majority of people of that country?

Now apartheid collapsed in South Africa and each person is equal to another and there is democracy which means one person one vote without racist discriminations. And thats what real political equality means, not the apartheid that TCs want.

Just like the South Africans we have also been ruled by foreign rulers for way too long. The people that those rulers brought to our island are welcome to stay in Cyprus as equal Cypriot and European citizens, just like the Whites can stay in SA. But they should realize that the era of colonialism is over and they should finally allow Cyprus to rule itself in a democratic way as it happens in every other democratic country in the world.

If however you do not accept there is just one Cyprus and just one Cypriot people and you want to have two separate "rulers" ruling separate territories, then at the very least you should be saying that you want to rule those villages that are TC only or TCs are the majority. You can't ask to rule the cities and villages which belong exclusively or mostly to GCs.

To put it shortly: either we should fairly, democratically and proportionately share all together the whole of Cyprus, or, if there will be a split, that split should again be fair and proportional. Not with you stealing our lands!!

[shahmaran]

I really don't see the relevance between how we got here 600 years ago and how we should be living right now, if you care to explain it i will be very grateful.

You seem to have this unique idea about time spans that you use to decide who belongs to where, so many people have been here for over 30 years now, who you obviously want kick out, because unless you do that you will not be able to push your % idea about how it should be divided, but if no one leaves, how are you planning to divide the island then? Do you have an equally proportionate division plan for the current state?

Because you seem to be OK with further ethnic cleansing in order to achieve what you think is a fair division amongst the "Cypriots". And you are not pushing the people to one side of their country (still being within their country), but you want to send them to another country!

More double standards coming your way me thinks.

[Piratis]

OK so you do not only claim that we are TURKS rather than TC's, you also claim that the Kurds have been there before Turks, Armenians, Syrians, Iranians and Iraqis, since they want land from all of them and you are saying that they should get it, because that is the proposed Kurdish state.

I didn't talk about any Armenians or Iranians. I talked about Kurds and Turks, and there is no question that 1) Kurds have been inhabiting that territory way before Turks came and 2) that the Kurds are the great majority of that territory. Do you doubt any of these two facts?

So in order for you to support your silly stance, you have also started changing the tune about ethnic concentrations, fair enough, lets have it your way, so you believe if there is a serious majority of a certain ethnic group in a particular area who is willing to be independent then they should be allowed to, given that they will respect the minority?

Is that what you are saying?

I didn't change anything from what I always say. As long as the majority in a territory was formed in a natural not forceful or illegal way on land that historically belongs to them, then the people of that territory should be free to decide in a democratic way if they want to be independent or if they want their territory to belong somewhere else. Do you see anything wrong with this?

Its funny because you seem to see Cyprus as an indivisible piece of land that should be Greek alone (even tho it is divided and not only Greek) but totally OK with the division of Turkey and its neighbours which are not divided lands and are internationally recognized as they are who also have a history that is MUCH older than Cyprus and its people.

That is where i see the double standards.

I never said that Cyprus should be "Greek alone". I said that Cyprus should be Cypriot alone, and Cypriots should decide if they want their island to be independent or to belong somewhere else. I am saying the exact same thing for Cypriots as I say for everybody else.

[shahmaran]

In order for Kurdistan to exist, it requires land from Armenia, Syria, Armenia, Iraq, Iran and Turkey.

Now i know you are only talking about Turks and Kurds because even here you hold the same mentality that no Turk actually belongs to where they are now wherever they might be, but like i said, no one cares about that because believe it or not it has been 1000 years, forcefully or not!!!

Forget the past, lets look at now, just like us here in Cyprus.

Shall i change my analogy to Israel and Palestine instead?

Israel holds a similar mentality as you do and believes that they are fighting for their ancestral lands while torturing an entire nation for the past 50 years or more, do you believe that Israel has the right to exist there regardless of the fact that the Palestinians are probably amongst the most suffering nation in the world right now, due to a mentality similar to yours, lets not even get into the fact that they were fighting for something as simple as electricity only a few weeks ago with people dying all over the hospitals due to the lack of it, it was Israels "humanitarian" response to the recent attacks, depriving an already suffering nation from electricity.

Do you agree with the Israelis who are fighting for their so called "holy lands" or do you support the resistance of the Palestinians who are also fighting for their "native lands" and have been there much longer as a people? Kind of like the GC's.

[Piratis]

Israel illegaly occupies lands that belong to Palestinians. So Israel (the good ally of Turkey), with USA weapons (just like Turkey) is occupying lands that they shouldn't.

So if you want to draw parallels between the two conflicts then in both cases you have the aggressor (Turkey/Israel) that illegally occupies territories that do not belong to them. The "trnc" in this case would be analogous to the Jewish settlements that Israel builds on Palestinian land in their effort to change the demographics of the occupied territories.

But if you like analogies, here is the example most similar to the case of Cyprus:

The Turkish minority in Bulgaria. It was created exactly like the TC minority did. Similarly they also had conflicts with the majority of Bulgarians, way more bloody than the ones we had in Cyprus. Do you think the Turkish minority of Bulgaria deserves to have 1/3rd of Bulgaria as their own independent state by ehtnically cleansing the majority of Bulgarians from it?

Other similar examples can be the minorities of the English, Spanish, Dutch etc Colonialists that still exists in territories of their former empires. Do you think those minorities of former colonialists now deserve to have their own separate part of the territories they used to occupy?

Don't try to excuse your crimes shahmaran. Cyprus belongs to Cypriots and Cypriots (including you) should be free to decide in a democratic way about the own island without foreigners forcing their will on us. Ethnically cleansing the majority of Cypriots from an area, replacing them with foreign Settlers, and then declaring the land that belongs by 82% to Greek Cypriots as some "Turkish republic" is illegal and inexcusable no matter how many lame excuses you are trying to give to justify this crime.

[Bananiot]

How about dealing with the points raised by Rolandis, one by one? Perhaps we can learn from the mistakes of the past.

[shahmaran]

Piratis, the Israelis are after their "indigenous" lands, i thought that's what you were all about, am i wrong?

I don't think Turkey is not here to stay, they are here to settle disputes which we haven't done in 50 years, do you think the Turks love wasting their tax money on us jobless bastards? I very much doubt it, i hope not anyways.

I hate the way you include me into the whole "Cypriots" name when you wish, but love to remind me that i am also the unwelcome guest from 500 years ago otherwise.

Make your mind up man...