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We rejected it

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Piratis » Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:00 pm

Whatever, read your history and stop making shit up, when "we" came you were someone else's slave, and the Ottomans gave you more rights than you ever had, so you turn around and take ours because?!


How about you get the rights you gave to us then? If it was so good for us then how about we switch places?

We never tried to take away any of your real rights as a minority on this island. On the contrary it is you who have taken our rights away and stopped us from having our freedom, human rights, democracy and self-determination.

The basic principles of democracy are the same in all democratic countries, and majority rule is an integral part of all of them.
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Postby shahmaran » Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:24 pm

This is where you always go wrong Piratis, by constantly comparing what went on before with today, and i don't mean the 50s and the 60s but you insist on bringing in the Ottomans!

Well did you have a democratic system before the Ottomans came anyway? NO!

Did you have any real rights before the Ottomans? NO!

Were the Ottomans treating you as equals? Probably not but then what would you expect from an ancient Empire it was the dark ages no one got a fair deal so get over it. However it was definitely better than what you had before.

Jesus Christ man drop the same rotten argument, those days are long gone!

Democracy is fine when you are electing your next president and similar trivial happenings, but when you are playing with ethnicity's and deciding for us about what country to be, then you might have some real issues.

Do you believe that the Kurds should get their own state?

After all as much as they have been living with the Turks for centuries, many of them do want their own state because they do not think that they are being treated fairly regarding their ethnicity?

Are you willing to compare it with what is going on with us or are you going to "side" with Turkey on this one and agree that they do not deserve their own state because they are a minority?
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Postby Piratis » Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:52 pm

shahmaran, what is unfortunate is that what is going on today is not much different in terms of freedom than what was going on during the Ottoman rule. In fact for 1/3rd of the island what is going on today is even worst than what was going on then. At least then we could live in our homeland, today you have ethnically cleansed us from 1/3rd of it.

If today you were not occupying our land then indeed we could say that the time of Ottomans belongs to the distant past. Unfortunately it appears you have not changed at all since then. You still do not respect our rights and you are still trying to force your will against the democratic wishes of the Cypriot people.

Democracy is fine when you are electing your next president and similar trivial happenings, but when you are playing with ethnicity's and deciding for us about what country to be, then you might have some real issues.


Cyprus is not the only multi-ethnic country, and democracy is definitely not just for "trivial" things (and then brute force takes over according to you?)

The whites in South Africa went there about the same time that you came to Cyprus. And they also ruled the place against the will of the majority. At some point they had to either accept democracy, or leave. The same goes for you. You can be equal Cypriot citizen and you have 1 vote like the rest of us. But you have no right to impose undemocratically your will.

Do you believe that the Kurds should get their own state?

After all as much as they have been living with the Turks for centuries, many of them do want their own state because they do not think that they are being treated fairly regarding their ethnicity?

Are you willing to compare it with what is going on with us or are you going to "side" with Turkey on this one and agree that they do not deserve their own state because they are a minority?


The Kurds are like Cypriots. The only difference is that we gained some independence at some point and they didn't (yet).

The Kurds not only are the native majority of the Kurdistan territory (like we are the majority of Cyprus) but they have also existed on those lands for 1000s of years, long before the Turks went there.

So don't compare yourselves with the Kurds who are people who own a specific territory.

TCs are a minority that do not own a separate specific territory, like the minorities of the English, French, Turkish, Dutch Spanish etc colonialists that exist in their former colonies. Like the Turks of Bulgaria, or the Whites of South Africa.

So if the Kurds want independence on their territory, where they are the great majority, and where they existed long before the Turks arrived, then they have every right for it. But you can not ethnically cleanse the great majority of the population and have your own state on land that belongs by 82% to Greek Cypriots.
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Postby Viewpoint » Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:12 am

Piratis is that like the rights we had during 1963 to 1974? If Turkey had not intervenedmaybe it would the rights you would be administering to the non existent TCs?
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Postby shahmaran » Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:47 am

Yeah i think you have misunderstood the point there Piratis, maybe deliberately or maybe not, let me clarify it for you a bit, maybe put it in your own words to make it easier for you;

The Kurds are a MINORITY in an internationally recognized democratic country with an internationally recognized government, and are wishing to take land from 2 other countries other then Turkey in order to claim their independent land called Kurdistan.

Don't involve the same garbage about "indigenousness" since no one gives a shit about it but you, plus they are as "indigenous" to those lands as you are to Cyprus, which is not that much, but that's besides to point like i said.

So do you think the Kurds, as illegal as it is, have a right to claim independence if they actually had the military power to do so since they don't believe that their ethnicity is respected in that country?

Or do you think it is NOT OK for a minority, no matter what the reason, to claim their independence at will by violating the democratic and human rights of the majority? ie. Taking their land and properties with them.

Which one will it be Sir? And no wiggling about!
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Postby Nikitas » Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:00 am

Rolandis is looking at things from a super Cypriot point of view.

There is another more detached way to look at things. The Greek Cypriots fought off the British Empire, then fought off a take over by Greece, they estblished full and unfettered sovereignty over 63 per cent of the island, with valid claims to the rest, entered the EU and had the financial strength to enter the Eurozone. Not bad for a community which had been under foreign rule since the 13th century! But that is just one way of looking at things, not the only way.
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Postby shahmaran » Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:05 am

Yeah good work with "fighting off" a take over from Greece, what would we have done without you. :roll:

How did you fight them off again?
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Postby Nikitas » Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:09 am

I do not know how old you are Shah, but most of us here recall that from Monday July 15 till Friday of the same week the Greek Cypriots fought and to a large extent kept at bay the coup against the Cypriot government. Obviously it does not suit your mindset to admit that detail. The facts are there, and some people here, like your mate Zan, are always eager to attribute the thousands of civilian casualties to that fighting and not the Turkish invasion.

That detail aside, obejectively, the Greek Cypriots have proven their biological and political survivability in very tough times. They are infinitely better off today than they were at any time since 1200 AD. Not bad!
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Postby Kikapu » Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:36 am

The Kurds are a MINORITY in an internationally recognized democratic country with an internationally recognized government, and are wishing to take land from 2 other countries other then Turkey in order to claim their independent land called Kurdistan.


Shah,

Although you raise an interesting argument with the above, it is very much flawed when it comes to Cyprus. The Kurds are where they were from hundreds of years. They are at the same location as before. They were not living all over Turkey and suddenly they all moved to the Eastern part of Turkey so that they can claim that part of Turkey as their new country. They have not kicked anyone of their land as the case has been in Cyprus. The TC's in Cyprus belong to every inch of Cyprus just as the GC's. We never had the North as ours. I know that's all you know, because of your age since you were born into that part and to you, the North has always been Turkish Cypriot land. At least that's how you were taught, I'm sure.
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Postby bilako22 » Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:40 am

40000 brave soldiers are in Cyprus reminding you that the island does not belong to the enosis loving greeks.
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