Cyprus-Forum.com

[Bananiot]

Alexandros wrote:

"GCs as a whole do not oppose political equality per se. What they are against is the dysfunctionality that may arise in a system which requires consensus at every step. If Alexandros makes "political equality for TCs" a concern of his own, and if Insan makes "safeguarding against dysfunctionality" a concern of his own, and if everyone else does the same thing, then a solution will come straight away. We have not had a solution for thirty years because neither of us has been listening ..."

I should like to distinguish between political equality of the two communities and political equality of the individual. What the pro solution TC parties are calling is for political equality of the two communities. Our government does not accept this. It says, the TC's will enjoy full political rights as individual persons. This is miles different from political equality of the two communities. Lets be honest about this.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Alexandros wrote:

"GCs as a whole do not oppose political equality per se. What they are against is the dysfunctionality that may arise in a system which requires consensus at every step. If Alexandros makes "political equality for TCs" a concern of his own, and if Insan makes "safeguarding against dysfunctionality" a concern of his own, and if everyone else does the same thing, then a solution will come straight away. We have not had a solution for thirty years because neither of us has been listening ..."

I should like to distinguish between political equality of the two communities and political equality of the individual. What the pro solution TC parties are calling is for political equality of the two communities. Our government does not accept this. It says, the TC's will enjoy full political rights as individual persons. This is miles different from political equality of the two communities. Lets be honest about this.

Where did you get this, Bananiot? Have you heard one official party or government position, which puts political equality in the context you suggest? (NEOI ORIZONTES excluded of course).

If we want to be precise, the GC official position is that Political Equality between the two constituent states of a bizonal - bicommunal Federation, according to the usual rules of Federal Governance, is acceptable. What the GC leadership is finding difficult to accept, is that the equality should be between two ethnic groups, rather than between two constituent states. In other words, the "political equality" provisions of Annan 1 are acceptable to the government and the parties, but not the "political equality" provisions of Annan 3 and Annan 5, because in those plans an explicit ethnic distinction was introduced.

This is still going to be a problem in negotiations, since the TCs insist on this ethnic distinction to guarantee Senate equality, therefore the two sides will clash in the negotiation, but at least we are calling the problem by its real name ...

[Kifeas]

If we want to be precise, the GC official position is that Political Equality between the two constituent states of a bizonal - bicommunal Federation, according to the usual rules of Federal Governance, is acceptable. What the GC leadership is finding difficult to accept, is that the equality should be between two ethnic groups, rather than between two constituent states. In other words, the "political equality" provisions of Annan 1 are acceptable to the government and the parties, but not the "political equality" provisions of Annan 3 and Annan 5, because in those plans an explicit ethnic distinction was introduced.

Alexandros,
This has also been my main argument in this forum.
Political equality can be accommodated along Constituent State lines instead of ethnic lines. Turkish Cypriots, I hope, should be able to understand that any separation of political rights on the basis of ethnicity and maternal language, violates fundamental principles of the E.U. aqui and also the new E.U. constitution. Furthermore it cannot accommodate the political rights of any non-Greek or non-Turkish Cypriot citizen, at least at the federal level. For example, how will a Cypriot Citizen from, lets say German decent, will exercise his political right to elect or to be elected in the senate.

Furthermore, we need to take into consideration a very frightening reality that has to do with the composition of what we conveniently call “Turkish Cypriot” community. Turkish Cypriot community is not anymore so much an indigenous Cypriot community but instead, almost half of it will probably remain to be a Turkish mainland community. Therefore, any form of political equality along ethnic lines, will essentially be granted to an overwhelming extend, to Turkey herself, due to the undeniable fact that these people (settlers) can be very easily influenced to serve any of Turkey’s political objectives in Cyprus. I am afraid the GC community will not be able to tolerate such an eventuality and at the end of the day we will have similar problems like in the 1960’s.

What do you think?
Are GCs rightful to be so greatly concerned with such arrangements?
Can we possibly digest such an event?

[-mikkie2-]

Kifeas,

The problem we have is that the TC's trust the Turks more than they do us. This suits Turkey very well as they can manipulate opinion to their advantage. The only way out is for as many settlers to be repatriated as possible, to ensure that indigenous TC's constitute the majority as well as giving the refugees a fairer deal. As a half way house a limit should be set in each CS such that everyone has a say in each CS but biased towards the main community of that state. If the TC's cannot accept the original Annan provisions then there is not much we can do about it other than to try to mitigate its effects as much as practically possible (with a view to mitigating the compromise on human rights as opposed to mitigating political power of each community).

[insan]

If the TC's cannot accept the original Annan provisions...

Original Annan provisions? Which one? The one that was modified by Clerides before formally presented to concerned parties?

[-mikkie2-]

In other words, the "political equality" provisions of Annan 1 are acceptable to the government and the parties, but not the "political equality" provisions of Annan 3 and Annan 5, because in those plans an explicit ethnic distinction was introduced.

Original Annan provisions? Which one? The one that was modified by Clerides before formally presented to concerned parties?

I think this answers your question!

[Kifeas]

Original Annan provisions? Which one? The one that was modified by Clerides before formally presented to concerned parties?

Insan, certainly not the one which was modified by Clerides. We should talk about the one, which was modified by Erdogan and was called by the all press of Turkey the following day, as the achievement of a “Solution a la Türka.” I have the photos of most of Turkey's front pages of the 31st and 1st of April 2004.

editing due to spelling errors

[insan]

In other words, the "political equality" provisions of Annan 1 are acceptable to the government and the parties, but not the "political equality" provisions of Annan 3 and Annan 5, because in those plans an explicit ethnic distinction was introduced.

Original Annan provisions? Which one? The one that was modified by Clerides before formally presented to concerned parties?

I think this answers your question!

So if there will be no ethnic divisions; there's no need to call it bi-communal, bi-zonal federation. A germany style reunification would settle the problem.

[Kifeas]

So if there will be no ethnic divisions; there's no need to call it bi-communal, bi-zonal federation. A Germany style reunification would settle the problem.

In Germany there are no provisions for Guaranteed majorities between East and West Germans. In theory the majority of population of ex-East Germany will be composed of West Germans and vice versa.

THEREFORE, FOR THE LAST TIME, WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SAME THING!

[insan]

So if there will be no ethnic divisions; there's no need to call it bi-communal, bi-zonal federation. A Germany style reunification would settle the problem.

In Germany there are no provisions for Guaranteed majorities between East and West Germans. In theory the majority of population of ex-East Germany will be composed of West Germans and vice versa.

THEREFORE, FOR THE LAST TIME, WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE SAME THING!

What guarantees will ensure being the majority in a constituent state? Unrestricted bi-zonality and majority rule? Until GC becomes majority in North we can all close our eyes for the sake of national cause; then we all start to shout about the unfairness of being ruled by TCs in TCCS where majority of its inhabitants are GCs.

Kifeas, none of the TCs are as naive as you imagine.