Expatkiwi wrote:Kikapu wrote:Expatkiwi wrote:
I'm a naturalized US Citizen. And yes, I do live in California. To my mind, 'Independence' is a status of a nation with allegiance to its own government. In order to meet independence, a country must have an established infrastructure, legal institutions, financial autonomy, and the sovereign right to deal with other countries - and vice versa.
I mentioned South Korea because the North derides it as a US Puppet State. Had the USA maintained large numbers of troops, it would have indeed looked like an occupying power. However, the smaller numbbers help keep a powerful deterrent on the north.
Good. You have given me what Independence means, so how does the "TRNC" qualifies as an "Independent Country" when it cannot meet most of what you have described above. But more importantly, you have not explained who qualifies to declare Independence.
Let make some comparisons and see if they make sense to you.
You live in the Great State of California, as I had done so for 25 years. Tell me, can the American Mexicans living in California declare Independence from the USA one day, by simply taking over the lower 1/3rd of California so that they can be close to Tijuana and send all non American Mexicans to the remaining 2/3rds of the State just like that. I'm not even going to mention the fact, that half of California belonged to Mexico up until 1848. So, in this scenario, would you support the American Mexicans Independence from California and the USA. I could of course also use the Black Americans taking over Georgia to declare Independence from the USA. Or the Chinese in China Town or the Gays in Castro District, both communities located in San Francisco, along with many other nationalities who have been abused and needing their own Independence. Would you also support these peoples "rights" to declare Independence from the USA. After all, all of these people one time or another, and some for generations have been persecuted by the European Americans (whites). If you do, then you are also right to support the "TRNC Independence".
I just wanted to know if you understood the land distribution between the TC's and the GC's, that it was not as you see today, nicely packaged in two large parcels and each one community has lived in that parcel of land all their lives and history, and have declared Independence. No, every Cypriot TC's and GC's has lived all over Cyprus, some in mixed villages and some pure TC or GC villages, just like the American Mexicans, and Blacks, and others, who live all over America. The fact that the "TRNC" is based on land that was taken away by force from other citizens of Cyprus, may well be the reason as to why the "TRNC" is not recognised by anyone except the country who has used the force, Turkey. So, if your acceptance of the "TRNC's" Independence is genuine, which has not given them what you stated as to what Independence means, you are now ready to lose the lower 1/3rd of California to American Mexicans, while you are forced to leave your home in LA, and be forced to be a refugee in San Francisco.
Look on the bright side Expatkiwi, you could have ended up in Kansas, I guess.
But I don't have ruby red slippers....
Anyway, this is an interesting comparison you have given me. I don't buy it though. I do believe in self-determination, and considering what the Turkish Cypriots have suffered between 1963 and 1974, partition is the only answer IMHO. What is wrong with that?
But I don't have ruby red slippers....
"Somewhere, over the rainbow, way up high.
There's a land that I heard of Once in a lullaby.
Somewhere, over the rainbow, skies are blue.
And the dreams that you dare to dream
Really do come true"...................where is our in-house "Dorothy" Natty to sing when we need her.
Anyway, this is an interesting comparison you have given me. I don't buy it though
But of course you don't buy into it Expatkiwi. Why would you want to look like a hypocrite. You don't want it in America, but it is OK to have what you don't want in other places.
Let see if I can find some thing that it is more to your liking to make a comparison to the Cyprus situation, because I think what you are saying is,
Might makes Right.....perhaps the Internment of American Japanese in 1942 after the attack on Pearl Harbour in 1941.
Residents of Japanese ancestry waiting in line for the bus that will transport them to an internment camp. Photograph by Dorothea Lange, Japanese American internment was the forced removal and internment of approximately 120,000[1] Japanese and Japanese Americans (62% of whom were United States citizens)[2][3] from the West Coast of the United States during World War II. While approximately 10,000 were able to relocate to other parts of the country of their own choosing, the remainder – roughly 110,000 men, women and children – were sent to hastily constructed camps called "War Relocation Centers" in remote portions of the nation's interior.
President Franklin Roosevelt authorized the internment with Executive Order 9066, which allowed local military commanders to designate "military areas" as "exclusion zones", from which "any or all persons may be excluded." This power was used to declare that all people of Japanese ancestry were excluded from the entire Pacific coast, including all of California and most of Oregon and Washington, except for those in internment camps.[4] In 1944, the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the exclusion, removal, and detention, arguing that it is permissible to curtail the civil rights of a racial group when there is a "pressing public necessity."[5]
Some compensation for property losses was paid in 1948, but most internees were unable to fully recover their losses.[3] In 1988, President Ronald Reagan signed legislation which apologized for the internment on behalf of the U.S. government. The legislation stated that government actions were based on "race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership",[6] and beginning in 1990, the government paid reparations to surviving internees.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_A ... internmentI do believe in self-determination, and considering what the Turkish Cypriots have suffered between 1963 and 1974, partition is the only answer IMHO. What is wrong with that?
I also believe in self determination. The question is, who and how do you go about doing it. I'm a TC who has lived through the 1963-64 times. Even for those who has lived all of '63-'74 is not comparison to couple of hundred years of slavery of the Blacks, and further 100 years of not having any rights at all, and still today, who are suffering from their community being dysfunctional, because of the past injustices. Is this what you are talking about, when it comes to the suffering of the TC's that should warrant us to take away land from others to make it our own.??
Perhaps the Union should have allowed the Confederates from the South to claim half of America to form their own country within the USA back in 1861. Did they not also deserve to have their own Partition Expatkiwi.?? Well, to prevent such tragedy from happening, brother was fighting brother and dying to prevent such situation from happening. In the end, we have a country called the United States of America, which you yourself have chosen to be part of, because I assume, you support it's past and present history, so that you can call yourself, an American, as I do, so that we can play our part to make sure she stays as ONE COUNTRY and not Partitioned amongst all the ethnic communities that live there, or do you also want them all to have their own "self determination". Come on Expatkiwi, you need to stay consistent, specially when you endorse something to others, when you do not accept it in your own country.
You see, Partition is not the best thing, as you seem to think, specially on land that does not belong to any one particular community. You cannot arbitrarily just take land from others and declare your own country. I think that is called stealing and a crime. Don't we Americans and in the West in general proclaim, that Crime does not pay and that criminals will not be rewarded with their criminal activities. Should this also not apply in Cyprus, with all that has happened since 1963. Are you willing to reward one community over another Expatkiwi.?? If you did, then how do you ever expect to have peace in Cyprus, with a partition you support, that will be forced on others, if it's not agreed by all those who are concerned.
The days of European Whites taking land from the natives as the case had been with the Americas and Australia are long gone. Lets not step back 5 centuries, but step into the future. Abraham Lincoln saw the future in 1861, and he was right to fight to keep the Union together at the expense of hundreds of thousands of casualties. It took a while to get it right, but we are almost there as a country where it has become an inclusive for all communities to live under one roof, and that is the USA. The same can be true in Cyprus, with a True Federation and True Democracy, because what has happened in Cyprus over the last 40+ years, is a "child's play" in comparison to other places, and they have found a way to work out their differences. Cypriots deserve the same to keep their Country in one piece. You do of course need to remove Fascism to achieve that, and we do have a lot of Fascist still in Cyprus today.
If you do not believe in the system of True Federation and True Democracy Expatkiwi, it may well be time for you to return back your American Passport and Citizenship and go back to where ever you came from. For someone who lives in the USA, I do not believe you have yet grasped what America is all about. Perhaps you are only a
"New American". There's still hope for you my friend.
What is wrong with that.?
All of the above is
"what's wrong with that", Expatkiwi. That's just a sample of
"what's wrongs", but that should be enough for one day.
