Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

zan this only makes us TCs more determined to want agreed partition, we took to the streets and supported the only plan before us to resolve this problem what did the GCs do tell us where to stick it and proceeded to demonize a plan which would have given them Maraş and gotten rid of the Turkish army. What have they done over the last 4 years? absolutely nothing.

Assimilation with Turkey a country which for good or bad has supported us for 34 years is better than assismilation with GCs who have brought us nothing but anquish fear and pain, what you GCs have to realize is that our population increases and you will have to negotiate with people who are more Turkish than Cypriots, choice is yours.

VP,

zan this only makes us TCs more determined to want agreed partition,

Since Turkey is being rejected by France and Germany for a full EU membership openly, there are handful of other countries who are in the "closet" at the moment who also share the same view. This move only gives Turkey 2 options left, to go for a "privileged membership" in hopes of becoming a full member in the future once Turkey becomes more open and Democratic or stay out of Europe for ever, so what all this means is, that Turkey has a Big Hill to climb that has been put in front of her. What does all this means to the "TRNC".?? The way I see it, they have lost any leveraged they may have had to have anything resembling a BBF or the AP. Having lost the upper hand, any "agreed Partition" proposals needs to come from the "TRNC" to the RoC and not the other way around.

Time is and legality is on the RoC's side, so what ever "agreed Partition" that the "TRNC" may want, should be made sooner rather than later, in hopes that it will be accepted by the RoC. At this point in time, I would caution the "TRNC" to keep their long "we want" list to a more reasonable short list of important issues and to the point. Unless the TC's go back to the 1960 Constitution, they should forget about asking for a 50-50 power sharing or a veto power. 75% GC's gave a resounding NO to this idea in 2004 and those numbers have not lessened since then, no matter who is elected as the next President of the RoC.

Keeping the status quo as the "TRNC" may want to pressure the RoC to meet them on their demands from the long list of "we want", is no longer going to cut it. Turkey has been put on notice that her only option of rubbing elbows with Europe is through a "privileged membership" and nothing else, and even that proposal needs a non-veto support from the RoC. So in reality, everything has changed for Turkey. They are now at the mercy of the RoC for the first time since many other EU members will gladly give Turkey a "privileged membership" over full EU membership. Cyprus does not have to go along with the rest to give a "YES" vote unless she gets what she wants, and she has proven this very clearly standing her ground with the Kosovo issue, who has the backing of major players in the world. Turkey or the "TRNC" should be so lucky to have the same support that has been promised to Kosovo.

Turkey is now at much weaker position to demand very much from the RoC than she was only few days ago. Until Turkey declares unequivocally that she wants to stay in Asia, the "TRNC" has no power to make any demands at all from the RoC, and even then, in order to have the embargoes and isolation lifted to make room for a full recognition, will come at a big cost. They would need to return almost half of the land that is being occupied now by Turkey. Some in the TRNC" say foolishly, that they would rather keep the present situation than return to the RoC. Well, it is their choice to keep it the way things are now, but it only means digging a bigger and deeper hole for themselves with the passing of time.

As reported, TC's are fleeing the "TRNC" by large numbers for a better future elsewhere. They have had enough of the promises of Denktash and corrupted politicians. They see the reality and getting out while they can, while they still see themselves as citizens of the RoC and a EU citizens. They understand what it means to be part of Europe and not be part of an illegal state. It is all these factors may be the reason as to why new recruits of settlers are needed to be made "TC citizens" to combat the loss of indigenous TC's. Of course, the True TC's can never be replaced, since the "new citizens" will never be accepted as TC's to be used in any negotiations. It is nothing more than a fantasy and fraud.

The "TRNC" wants to blame the RoC for imposing isolation on them. In reality, isolation have resulted from unilateral declaration of Independence by trying to build a "state" within a State on stolen land. This is the punishment imposed on the "TRNC" by the World Body and no one else. Even the most "unethical" countries around the world, are not supporting to lift the isolation. So much has been made of the 2008 being the year where the "TRNC" will become the center of the world's attention and that it will become part of the "World Body", but once again, promises are being made, that cannot be kept.

With Turkey's assured refusal to become a EU member made clear by Germany and France now, would have spelt major problems had the AP was accepted in 2004. At this juncture, Turkey would have walked away from any agreement she may have agreed to, as a "punishment" for her refusal entry into the EU, since there would have been no incentives for her not to. It would have caused a major disruption into every one's life as well as intensify for further bloodshed. The AP was not a solution for peace, but only a solution for the "TRNC" and Turkey's EU bid. Given where we are today with what Turkey is facing, even possibly over throwing the elected government by the Turkish Military, Cyprus would have been in much worse situation that we are now. These new developments will no doubt will help PapaD in the upcoming elections for his rejection of the AP in 2004. Over all, the TC's are the major loser in all this. They are now a minority in the "TRNC" as more settlers are moving in to replace indigenous TC's. The GC's are losers for having settlers occupy some of their land, but truth be said, that collectively, it is all the True Cypriots who are the losers in all this.

The TC's no longer have a voice in the "TRNC" since the voice is only coming from Turkey. Soon, Turkey's voice will be coming through the "TRNC" ballot boxes. The only place left for indigenous TC's to be part of Cyprus, is now the RoC, unless Turkey sees it as not being in her best interest anymore to continue with the occupation and supporting a "welfare state" that has not given her anything in return but problems. What may have been once a "bargaining chip" for her EU membership, the "TRNC" may be nothing more than a "White Elephant" for her now. She may just cut her loses and stop throwing "good money after bad", and try to at least get a "privileged membership" from the EU, with a non-veto from the RoC, than get nothing at all for all her troubles for the last 34 years..

This post rubber stamps my opinion the Kikapu is a GC, he throws in one line about the loss of GCs to try and throw us off but such a post can only be written by someone who is not a TC. The terminology and technique, the undertones and concentration of problem for the TRNC reveal everything, you have to be blind not to see it.

Once again VP is trying his "Hell Mary Pass" to try and make a connection with his GC labeling. Just for the record, it can only be an "incomplete pass". I can say this very confidently, because you have not disputed any of my points as being not being plausible. If you think Germany's and France's stance regarding Turkey's EU bid was a positive, then give us your version of how you see thing developing down the road.

I wanted Turkey in the EU, but I also see Turkey losing her "trump card" by holding onto the "TRNC" to get her there. Now she has less to gain from the EU, but it is still better than nothing. Unfortunately for Turkey, the RoC can still block her. This is why I think, that Turkey is now at much weaker position than she was before few days ago. 2004 AP would have taken care all those concerns for her back then. It was Turkey's bad luck that that did not happen. Her options now are very limited, and the RoC must know that, and they will use their new position accordingly.

The whole purpose of my post was the result of what Germany and France said openly, which has changed everything for Turkey dramatically. Any changes that happens in Turkey, will make a change in Cyprus. Anyone who closes their eyes to this reality, is not only blind, but also living in DENIAL, and I do not mean the river in Egypt either.

How many people expressed there disapproval of Greeces' entry Kikapu????How many people did the same for Cyprus kikapu????? You make up these horror stories as if hey make a blind bit of difference.....When the time comes we shall see......Little old "ROC" is gonna make al the difference......

[Viewpoint]

zan this only makes us TCs more determined to want agreed partition, we took to the streets and supported the only plan before us to resolve this problem what did the GCs do tell us where to stick it and proceeded to demonize a plan which would have given them Maraş and gotten rid of the Turkish army. What have they done over the last 4 years? absolutely nothing.

Assimilation with Turkey a country which for good or bad has supported us for 34 years is better than assismilation with GCs who have brought us nothing but anquish fear and pain, what you GCs have to realize is that our population increases and you will have to negotiate with people who are more Turkish than Cypriots, choice is yours.

VP,

zan this only makes us TCs more determined to want agreed partition,

Since Turkey is being rejected by France and Germany for a full EU membership openly, there are handful of other countries who are in the "closet" at the moment who also share the same view. This move only gives Turkey 2 options left, to go for a "privileged membership" in hopes of becoming a full member in the future once Turkey becomes more open and Democratic or stay out of Europe for ever, so what all this means is, that Turkey has a Big Hill to climb that has been put in front of her. What does all this means to the "TRNC".?? The way I see it, they have lost any leveraged they may have had to have anything resembling a BBF or the AP. Having lost the upper hand, any "agreed Partition" proposals needs to come from the "TRNC" to the RoC and not the other way around.

Time is and legality is on the RoC's side, so what ever "agreed Partition" that the "TRNC" may want, should be made sooner rather than later, in hopes that it will be accepted by the RoC. At this point in time, I would caution the "TRNC" to keep their long "we want" list to a more reasonable short list of important issues and to the point. Unless the TC's go back to the 1960 Constitution, they should forget about asking for a 50-50 power sharing or a veto power. 75% GC's gave a resounding NO to this idea in 2004 and those numbers have not lessened since then, no matter who is elected as the next President of the RoC.

Keeping the status quo as the "TRNC" may want to pressure the RoC to meet them on their demands from the long list of "we want", is no longer going to cut it. Turkey has been put on notice that her only option of rubbing elbows with Europe is through a "privileged membership" and nothing else, and even that proposal needs a non-veto support from the RoC. So in reality, everything has changed for Turkey. They are now at the mercy of the RoC for the first time since many other EU members will gladly give Turkey a "privileged membership" over full EU membership. Cyprus does not have to go along with the rest to give a "YES" vote unless she gets what she wants, and she has proven this very clearly standing her ground with the Kosovo issue, who has the backing of major players in the world. Turkey or the "TRNC" should be so lucky to have the same support that has been promised to Kosovo.

Turkey is now at much weaker position to demand very much from the RoC than she was only few days ago. Until Turkey declares unequivocally that she wants to stay in Asia, the "TRNC" has no power to make any demands at all from the RoC, and even then, in order to have the embargoes and isolation lifted to make room for a full recognition, will come at a big cost. They would need to return almost half of the land that is being occupied now by Turkey. Some in the TRNC" say foolishly, that they would rather keep the present situation than return to the RoC. Well, it is their choice to keep it the way things are now, but it only means digging a bigger and deeper hole for themselves with the passing of time.

As reported, TC's are fleeing the "TRNC" by large numbers for a better future elsewhere. They have had enough of the promises of Denktash and corrupted politicians. They see the reality and getting out while they can, while they still see themselves as citizens of the RoC and a EU citizens. They understand what it means to be part of Europe and not be part of an illegal state. It is all these factors may be the reason as to why new recruits of settlers are needed to be made "TC citizens" to combat the loss of indigenous TC's. Of course, the True TC's can never be replaced, since the "new citizens" will never be accepted as TC's to be used in any negotiations. It is nothing more than a fantasy and fraud.

The "TRNC" wants to blame the RoC for imposing isolation on them. In reality, isolation have resulted from unilateral declaration of Independence by trying to build a "state" within a State on stolen land. This is the punishment imposed on the "TRNC" by the World Body and no one else. Even the most "unethical" countries around the world, are not supporting to lift the isolation. So much has been made of the 2008 being the year where the "TRNC" will become the center of the world's attention and that it will become part of the "World Body", but once again, promises are being made, that cannot be kept.

With Turkey's assured refusal to become a EU member made clear by Germany and France now, would have spelt major problems had the AP was accepted in 2004. At this juncture, Turkey would have walked away from any agreement she may have agreed to, as a "punishment" for her refusal entry into the EU, since there would have been no incentives for her not to. It would have caused a major disruption into every one's life as well as intensify for further bloodshed. The AP was not a solution for peace, but only a solution for the "TRNC" and Turkey's EU bid. Given where we are today with what Turkey is facing, even possibly over throwing the elected government by the Turkish Military, Cyprus would have been in much worse situation that we are now. These new developments will no doubt will help PapaD in the upcoming elections for his rejection of the AP in 2004. Over all, the TC's are the major loser in all this. They are now a minority in the "TRNC" as more settlers are moving in to replace indigenous TC's. The GC's are losers for having settlers occupy some of their land, but truth be said, that collectively, it is all the True Cypriots who are the losers in all this.

The TC's no longer have a voice in the "TRNC" since the voice is only coming from Turkey. Soon, Turkey's voice will be coming through the "TRNC" ballot boxes. The only place left for indigenous TC's to be part of Cyprus, is now the RoC, unless Turkey sees it as not being in her best interest anymore to continue with the occupation and supporting a "welfare state" that has not given her anything in return but problems. What may have been once a "bargaining chip" for her EU membership, the "TRNC" may be nothing more than a "White Elephant" for her now. She may just cut her loses and stop throwing "good money after bad", and try to at least get a "privileged membership" from the EU, with a non-veto from the RoC, than get nothing at all for all her troubles for the last 34 years..

This post rubber stamps my opinion the Kikapu is a GC, he throws in one line about the loss of GCs to try and throw us off but such a post can only be written by someone who is not a TC. The terminology and technique, the undertones and concentration of problem for the TRNC reveal everything, you have to be blind not to see it.

Once again VP is trying his "Hell Mary Pass" to try and make a connection with his GC labeling. Just for the record, it can only be an "incomplete pass". I can say this very confidently, because you have not disputed any of my points as being not being plausible. If you think Germany's and France's stance regarding Turkey's EU bid was a positive, then give us your version of how you see thing developing down the road.

I wanted Turkey in the EU, but I also see Turkey losing her "trump card" by holding onto the "TRNC" to get her there. Now she has less to gain from the EU, but it is still better than nothing. Unfortunately for Turkey, the RoC can still block her. This is why I think, that Turkey is now at much weaker position than she was before few days ago. 2004 AP would have taken care all those concerns for her back then. It was Turkey's bad luck that that did not happen. Her options now are very limited, and the RoC must know that, and they will use their new position accordingly.

The whole purpose of my post was the result of what Germany and France said openly, which has changed everything for Turkey dramatically. Any changes that happens in Turkey, will make a change in Cyprus. Anyone who closes their eyes to this reality, is not only blind, but also living in DENIAL, and I do not mean the river in Egypt either.

You are the one who is using this to try and gain some sort of satisfaction that Turkey is out for the count when it comes to her EU aspirations. You are only deluding yourself, I personally do not want Turkey to enter the EU but it looks like she has taken the first steps towards moving closer to an EU perspective and you jump the gun and sound exstatic that France and germany have expressed nothing new that they do not see Turkey in the EU, well hello this is not new news in fact there are many nations who do not want Turkey in the EU. What you seem to forget is that we to agree with them, Turkey today is not but a Turkey in 20+ years maybe alifeline to an aging EU, or Turkey may tıurn around and say up yours. You forget that without Turkeys EU aspirations in tact the little GC "RoC" will have no leverage over Turkey, what will they do then? up the swany without a paddle me thinks. Turkey wont give a shit about a solution or recognizing the "RoC" so who do you think should be fighting for Turkey to maintain a EU perstpective the TCs or the GCs? A disinterested Turkey and the GCs can kiss any hopes of a solution forever.

Kikapu have you understood anything of what we say? the population in the TRNC is on the increase, Turks Brits Israelis Martians who cares when they become citizens they are one of us we do not discriminate against our own.

[skipper]

Turkey already has this "Priviledged Partnership", it's called the 1995 Customs Union agreement. People keep on going on about this new partnership but never explain what it is supposed to be, what is it supposed to be on offer?

Freedom of Movement within EU? near 0% chance of that happening.

Agricultural subsities for Turkey? France and other countries would never agree to it, Turkey is too big.

Zero tariffs on agricultural goods? Turkey would never agree without subsidies above.

Freedom of movement for capital? Since the purchasing power of Turkey is small, this would be another negative without the above as "sweeteners".

Infact for Turkey there is no advantage of a this "Priviledged Partnership" as there are no priviledges and certainly no case of partnership.

The only reason France and Germany want it is because they know Turkey is too important, they want it as a satellite state that is bound by rules that it has no right to vote on and is lope sided since without the points above it makes no sense for Turkey.

That's why Turkey says they're not interested, it's either full membership or things as they are. I personally dont think Turkey will ever become a member, France & Germany plus others know this too but they basically don't have the balls to say No. I mean they said No to Morocco when they applied, that was easy enough.

So with this in mind, RoC can use the veto all it likes as veto only has weight if you are the only one willing to use it. To say that the RoC has never been in a stronger position is quite off the mark I'm affaird infact it is in a worse position since there is practically no will on Turkeys side to jump through the hoops the EU sets for it.

As for Nuri Silay he's hardly your typical TC youth. He left the CTP youth wing probably because he did n't have the influence to get a nice cosey cival service job where he can sit down all day nothing. So he joins the DP, the party of Denktash Junior and then resigns just about the same time after they get chucked out of government and now he is leaving because he cant get a job. Well I'm sorry but if this was a normal TC then I would be moved but its not and the only reason its in this news paper is that he has contacts in the media.

Some of his comment is valid, yes hope was generated, but that's because people thought they had the wrong politicians in power. It turns out that the problem is that in general there is no difference between politicans. There are a small group of people running the show and make no mistake it is TCs who are running it, not people from Turkey, the money certainly comes from Turkey but the benefactors are TCs i.e. the ruling elite. Thats is why nearly all MPs are TCs. When a new bunch get elected all that happens is the bribes and influence go to someone else and nothing changes. In a situation where resources are limited you need good management to best use what you have, the only thing a politician is good for is making sure they profit the most whilst in power. There is a TC saying, I'm pretty sure its a cypriot one "Its cheaper to cloth a politican then to feed one".

[Nikitas]

"There are a small group of people running the show and make no mistake it is TCs who are running it, not people from Turkey, the money certainly comes from Turkey but the benefactors are TCs i.e. the ruling elite"

The ruling elite. Well said.

[Kikapu]

Turkey already has this "Priviledged Partnership", it's called the 1995 Customs Union agreement. People keep on going on about this new partnership but never explain what it is supposed to be, what is it supposed to be on offer?

Freedom of Movement within EU? near 0% chance of that happening.

Agricultural subsities for Turkey? France and other countries would never agree to it, Turkey is too big.

Zero tariffs on agricultural goods? Turkey would never agree without subsidies above.

Freedom of movement for capital? Since the purchasing power of Turkey is small, this would be another negative without the above as "sweeteners".

Infact for Turkey there is no advantage of a this "Priviledged Partnership" as there are no priviledges and certainly no case of partnership.

The only reason France and Germany want it is because they know Turkey is too important, they want it as a satellite state that is bound by rules that it has no right to vote on and is lope sided since without the points above it makes no sense for Turkey.

That's why Turkey says they're not interested, it's either full membership or things as they are. I personally dont think Turkey will ever become a member, France & Germany plus others know this too but they basically don't have the balls to say No. I mean they said No to Morocco when they applied, that was easy enough.

So with this in mind, RoC can use the veto all it likes as veto only has weight if you are the only one willing to use it. To say that the RoC has never been in a stronger position is quite off the mark I'm affaird infact it is in a worse position since there is practically no will on Turkeys side to jump through the hoops the EU sets for it.

As for Nuri Silay he's hardly your typical TC youth. He left the CTP youth wing probably because he did n't have the influence to get a nice cosey cival service job where he can sit down all day nothing. So he joins the DP, the party of Denktash Junior and then resigns just about the same time after they get chucked out of government and now he is leaving because he cant get a job. Well I'm sorry but if this was a normal TC then I would be moved but its not and the only reason its in this news paper is that he has contacts in the media.

Some of his comment is valid, yes hope was generated, but that's because people thought they had the wrong politicians in power. It turns out that the problem is that in general there is no difference between politicans. There are a small group of people running the show and make no mistake it is TCs who are running it, not people from Turkey, the money certainly comes from Turkey but the benefactors are TCs i.e. the ruling elite. Thats is why nearly all MPs are TCs. When a new bunch get elected all that happens is the bribes and influence go to someone else and nothing changes. In a situation where resources are limited you need good management to best use what you have, the only thing a politician is good for is making sure they profit the most whilst in power. There is a TC saying, I'm pretty sure its a cypriot one "Its cheaper to cloth a politican then to feed one" .

Skipper,

Welcome back. Always enjoy reading your posts. I find your comments very credible and to the point without dancing around the issues. I hope you stick around for a while.

Now to your question.

Turkey already has this "Privileged Partnership", it's called the 1995 Customs Union agreement. People keep on going on about this new partnership but never explain what it is supposed to be, what is it supposed to be on offer?

My understanding as to what "privileged membership" is Skipper, is something what the EU has with Switzerland, even though they are called "Bilateral agreements", which there are limited freedom of movement for EU members, mostly when it comes to jobs and residence. Switzerland never wanted to join the EU and have voted it down twice in a referendum, but have signed various agreements to be in the "inner circles" of the EU. You can get all the information here for the EU-CH Bi-lateral agreement.

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/i ... hweiz.html

There are a small group of people running the show and make no mistake it is TCs who are running it, not people from Turkey, the money certainly comes from Turkey but the benefactors are TCs i.e. the ruling elite. That is why nearly all MPs are TCs. When a new bunch get elected all that happens is the bribes and influence go to someone else and nothing changes.

"ANIMAL FARM" is the best way to describe your comments Skipper. The whole system is corrupt to it's core, and only the hard core Partitionist and Propagandist on this forum refuses to accept it.

Skipper, perhaps you can answer me this question that VP is not answering but keeps giving me a bunch of "song and dance". The question is, why is it in Turkey's interest to insist on having further 50,000 settlers become "TRNC citizens" so that they can be grouped as TC's. You already told us that majority of the MP's in the "TRNC" are TC's, but large majority of those living in the "TRNC" are Turkish Settlers, which most are not able to vote in any elections, be it be a referendum, MP seats or local counsel. Is Turkey trying to get more settlers into the "government" to change any outcome of any desicion makings down the road.?? We all know that Talat is the "puppet" of Turkey, but perhaps the MP's are not, despite being corrupted, they want to hold onto their seats, because it is financially beneficial to them. Surely, the "TRNC" can make as many "new TC citizens" as they wanted, and they have not moved on it, until threatened by Turkey to cut some of their money therefore it is not the "TRNC" that want "new TC citizens" but it's Turkey. Why is that Skipper.??

[Jerry]

A few questions on France and Germany's current attitude towards Turkey.

Will the Turks resent the fact that they are subsidising an EU member but are unable to join themselves.
Will Turkey make some grand gesture to try and change the view of France and Germany
Will attitudes change when the current leaders are no longer in power.

As to who runs the "TRNC", maybe the "elite" does but as on the mainland the Military will always have the last word.

The "TRNC" cannot survive on its own. The so called isolation has little or nothing to do with the poor state of the economy in the north, they have tried everything from Poly Peck to "universities" to casinos to flogging off land that does not even belong to them. The TCs must be stupid if they think the ROC will do anything that leads to their recognition.

Here is are recent exracts of what a British pro "TRNC" resident of Lapta says on his website about his fellow citizens:-
The plan was to go down to LD's this evening but then we got the bad news. Alec their chef has had his renewal of residency turned down. Alec has been here three years now but suddenly the authorities have decided that he is too young and I understand that he is not the first person to have his renewal refused on that basis. We think that what they are trying to do is to say, young local Turkish Cypriots should do the work. Now this is not such a ridiculous idea except for one thing, the locals are such lazy buggers that they would not do the work. It is unfortunately a fact that the locals have been feather bedded for so long that they do not have any work experience and need usually three or four people to do the work of one Brit. We will have to wait and see what happens from now as Alec is trying to go over to Turkey, come back on a 90 day visa and try to work things out.

Another uproar about price increases, this time it is electricity, going up by up to 21%. The government is being accused again of mismanaging the countries finances and trying to cover shortfalls by every means possible, without of course considering the consequences. Somebody has pointed out the obvious, price increases in this area will have a knock on effect. The electricity company says that it is losing money every month, due to prices being below production and investment costs. The people find it difficult to see how an energy system full of defects can increase its prices. Think this one is going to rumble on for some time.

Many politicians are pushing hard for an early general election due to the major dissatisfaction of the current government coalition. The Social Democrats have this week made a scathing speech about government expenditure, highlighting the nepotism that exists here, such as an increase of 3,000 new employees, creating a need for higher taxes to cover the wage bill etc. We have said for a long time that this is the route of all problems, too many untrained people sitting around drinking coffee or just watching others work. My favourite people, CTA, are a typical example, 1,200 employees and only 6 planes, begs questions

[Kikapu]

You are the one who is using this to try and gain some sort of satisfaction that Turkey is out for the count when it comes to her EU aspirations. You are only deluding yourself, I personally do not want Turkey to enter the EU but it looks like she has taken the first steps towards moving closer to an EU perspective and you jump the gun and sound exstatic that France and germany have expressed nothing new that they do not see Turkey in the EU, well hello this is not new news in fact there are many nations who do not want Turkey in the EU. What you seem to forget is that we to agree with them, Turkey today is not but a Turkey in 20+ years maybe alifeline to an aging EU, or Turkey may tıurn around and say up yours. You forget that without Turkeys EU aspirations in tact the little GC "RoC" will have no leverage over Turkey, what will they do then? up the swany without a paddle me thinks. Turkey wont give a shit about a solution or recognizing the "RoC" so who do you think should be fighting for Turkey to maintain a EU perstpective the TCs or the GCs? A disinterested Turkey and the GCs can kiss any hopes of a solution forever.

Kikapu have you understood anything of what we say? the population in the TRNC is on the increase, Turks Brits Israelis Martians who cares when they become citizens they are one of us we do not discriminate against our own.

VP,

Well of course there are others who do not want Turkey in the EU, such as yourself to start with, because as you said, if Turkey is not in the EU, we should forget about a solution to Cyprus, which is what you want, a NO SOLUTION to Cyprus, so I'm glad you have finally cleared that up for us to all to see. You are only thinking of yourself and not the best interest of Turkey or Cyprus.
"Always follow the money to find where the truth lies" is what I always say. To most, money is what is the deciding factor and screw everyone else. I don't care if you are a TC or a GC. People are willing to only look after their best interest and tough luck with the community they claim to represent. That truly is a "dog eat dog" situation.

As long as Cyprus is in the EU and the "TRNC" and Turkey is not, RoC will always have the upper hand. If not now, will so down the road. Do not forget that. As for the "TRNC" not discriminating against others living in the "TRNC" is a good thing, so when can we expect all the GC refugees to be allowed go back to their homes and claim their land.??

I did not know there were Martians living in the "TRNC" also.
Perhaps that is the reason why it is always referred to legal and illegal immigrants as "Aliens". :wink:
Perhaps I should refer to the settlers and other foreigners in the "TRNC" as "Aliens" from now on.

[zan]

A few questions on France and Germany's current attitude towards Turkey.

Will the Turks resent the fact that they are subsidising an EU member but are unable to join themselves.
Will Turkey make some grand gesture to try and change the view of France and Germany
Will attitudes change when the current leaders are no longer in power.

As to who runs the "TRNC", maybe the "elite" does but as on the mainland the Military will always have the last word.

The "TRNC" cannot survive on its own. The so called isolation has little or nothing to do with the poor state of the economy in the north, they have tried everything from Poly Peck to "universities" to casinos to flogging off land that does not even belong to them. The TCs must be stupid if they think the ROC will do anything that leads to their recognition.

Here is are recent exracts of what a British pro "TRNC" resident of Lapta says on his website about his fellow citizens:-
The plan was to go down to LD's this evening but then we got the bad news. Alec their chef has had his renewal of residency turned down. Alec has been here three years now but suddenly the authorities have decided that he is too young and I understand that he is not the first person to have his renewal refused on that basis. We think that what they are trying to do is to say, young local Turkish Cypriots should do the work. Now this is not such a ridiculous idea except for one thing, the locals are such lazy buggers that they would not do the work. It is unfortunately a fact that the locals have been feather bedded for so long that they do not have any work experience and need usually three or four people to do the work of one Brit. We will have to wait and see what happens from now as Alec is trying to go over to Turkey, come back on a 90 day visa and try to work things out.

Another uproar about price increases, this time it is electricity, going up by up to 21%. The government is being accused again of mismanaging the countries finances and trying to cover shortfalls by every means possible, without of course considering the consequences. Somebody has pointed out the obvious, price increases in this area will have a knock on effect. The electricity company says that it is losing money every month, due to prices being below production and investment costs. The people find it difficult to see how an energy system full of defects can increase its prices. Think this one is going to rumble on for some time.

Many politicians are pushing hard for an early general election due to the major dissatisfaction of the current government coalition. The Social Democrats have this week made a scathing speech about government expenditure, highlighting the nepotism that exists here, such as an increase of 3,000 new employees, creating a need for higher taxes to cover the wage bill etc. We have said for a long time that this is the route of all problems, too many untrained people sitting around drinking coffee or just watching others work. My favourite people, CTA, are a typical example, 1,200 employees and only 6 planes, begs questions

Wasn't it a GC accountant that blew the whistle on PollyPeck for doing what every company was doing at the time...I think a few more have gone the same way now and the ones that didn't, we are paying the price for now...

The idea that the isolation has not had an impact on the TRNC/KKTC is laughable I am afraid......The whole island is dependent on tourism and the flights that do not exist because of isolation and the illegal banning of advertisement by Ken Livingstone had a massive impact on the economy....Are you people living in cloud cuckoo land or what....

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

VP,

Well of course there are others who do not want Turkey in the EU, such as yourself to start with, because as you said, if Turkey is not in the EU, we should forget about a solution to Cyprus, which is what you want, a NO SOLUTION to Cyprus, so I'm glad you have finally cleared that up for us to all to see. You are only thinking of yourself and not the best interest of Turkey or Cyprus.

I have never denied that the only viable solution for Cyprus is agreed partition, why are you so suprised, this is also a type od solution, may not be the one you want but nevertheless its a solution and taking into account the chasm between the 2 sides appears to be the only one possible.

"Always follow the money to find where the truth lies" is what I always say. To most, money is what is the deciding factor and screw everyone else. I don't care if you are a TC or a GC. People are willing to only look after their best interest and tough luck with the community they claim to represent. That truly is a "dog eat dog" situation.

What money? have you studied the economy of the TRNC? If it was money I was after I would have stayed in the UK.

As long as Cyprus is in the EU and the "TRNC" and Turkey is not, RoC will always have the upper hand. If not now, will so down the road. Do not forget that. As for the "TRNC" not discriminating against others living in the "TRNC" is a good thing, so when can we expect all the GC refugees to be allowed go back to their homes and claim their land.??

They GCs are not part of the TRNC they do not recognize it, so how can we give them any rights? As for the GCs benefiting from the EU or having the upper hand could you explain this? been 4 years and they are no closer to solution than they were 30 years ago.

did not know there were Martians living in the "TRNC" also.
Perhaps that is the reason why it is always referred to legal and illegal immigrants as "Aliens".
Perhaps I should refer to the settlers and other foreigners in the "TRNC" as "Aliens" from now on.

As long as they are citizens fine by us

[skipper]

Kikapu, the Ankara Agreement of 1963, later revised in 1973 and the 1995 Customs Union are in affect the bilateral agreements you describe. Infact Turkey is the only country to have a Customs Union with the EU, Switzerland is within the EEA framework. With regards to freedom of movement for jobs and residence there are actually clauses in the Ankara Agreement that would have allowed for freedom of workers, but it never got implemented because of political concerns, ie look at how many Turks there are in Germany. Infact there was an important ECJ ruling with regards to visas to EU countries:

http://russellwise.wordpress.com/2007/09/

Basically, anyone who can wants to be self employeed and can prove the means to do so can get a Visa and residence in the EU. Like I said before there is nothing the EU can offer Turkey other than full membership that it does n't already have. For GC's reading this, congratulations you out smarted the TC's when you joined the EU, however I'm sorry that you wont be able to levarge that against Turkey.

By ruling elite I dont simply mean the politicians, I also mean the business men/families who run most of the economy that the government is n't involved. There is a ruling elite in the south, the difference being there is enough money to go round in the south so that people are content with the system. Like I said in my post when you have limited resources you need good management something which I've never attributed to politicans.

If there is one area that is consistantly misunderstood here is this whole "settler" issue. The actual number of people from Turkey and their offspring is around 50% of the electorate already, but the number of MPs who are from this group is 2 out of 50 if my memory serves me correctly, thats 4%. Also the majority of this group have come here from the 70's and 80's, the majority are 2nd and 3rd generation (although of course they are n't voting age). If you exclude the Army and Students the rest are new arrivals here for work. My reason for mentioning this is that if you go to London you will hear immigrants or their children moan about eastern europeans and surprisingly you will find similar attitudes by immigrants here.

These people would also not be in favour of granting 50,000 because it would affect them too as services are stretched as they are. Like I said this whole settler issue gets on my nerves as its always misused. These people are n't stooges of Turkey, they came here to get away from Turkey. These people have also been used in the past for political gain but now immigration is much more controlled, for example previously you could enter from Turkey with a Turkish ID card no questions asked. Now you need to go through the hassle to get a Passport and on arrival if you want a tourist visa have to prove you have a reservation and money or have a valid work permit. You also need to stay on the island for 10 years now before you can apply for citizenship which is n't guarenteed. Now with Turkey giving $430million a year in assistance and as Jerry puts it, "The military has the final say" they should easily beable to grant 50,000.

Sure the numbers from Turkey have been growing, but thats because up to now the economy has been growing. The number of foreign nationals has also grown in the south too, plus you have Greeks and "Pontians" who have citizenship but I'm sure you don't count them. Jerry even quotes someone who says the TC youth are lazy and I agree, but let me just ask you this, how many GC are willing to work in resturants or construction sites? The majority of TC youth are n't willing either.

If Talat is a puppet of Turkey then anyone who gets elected to lead the TC is automatically one too because basically money talks and its $430million a year we are talking about. No one elected is going to say no to that money, because without that money you cant pay people who work for the government and when that happens you'ill have riots guarenteed, it would be political suicide. Since the state employees tens of thousands of people and pays out pensions, no one is going to elect someone who says you're going to have to accept less pay/pension or lose your job. I just can't understand why people have such a hard time seeing this.

This whole isolation/recognition issue is just nonsense too. Most people dont care about recognition but they do care about isolation because it does affect them. Linking the lifting of isolation to recognition is disengenuous too since as Maksakis said, TCs cross over with their TRNC ID cards and drive with TRNC car registrations and licenses. Id really like ask a GC politician if they consider alot of the TC youth as bastards or not, since I'm not sure if their parents are recognised as married since their marriage certificates are issued by the TRNC (Yes I know according to 1960 marriage/births/educations is left to the TC).

Unlike what Maksakis asserts, this does n't mean recognition of the TRNC. An administration is not a State and recognising an administration does not entail recognition of a state since even China calls Taiwan the "Taiwan Authority". The GCs if really worried that lifting isolation meant recognition could easily put forward the stipulation that the north refer to themselves as the "administration north of the green line" or similar with their documentations and dealings with the EU. This would protect them legally, but like I said this recoginition issue is n't about recognition at all, its about keeping the TCs economically weak since GC politicans say without this incentive TCs will not look for a solution. This is like a husband who says I dont give my wife money and beat her on occasion since I love my wife but if I gave her some freedom she would leave me. Papadopolos even said something similair about loving the TCs. What it would also mean is actually acknowledging political equality even though the GCs pay lipservices to BBF with political equality.

To Jerry again, of course the TRNC can't survive on their own, you need trading partners to survive. Look at countries that have had self imposed closed economies in the past, they become stagant. What brings in money in the south? Tourisim, Services, Banking, Shipping and some small amount of exports. Are you seriously saying that if the the north had the best governance in the world, they would succeed in these areas? Of course they would n't. GC business does n't want the competition either, why would they want to shoot themselves in the foot by allowing competion? I remember during the Annan plan negotiations, the GC side wanted stipulations that federal governments should n't compete with each other on local taxation even though that is a feature of a federal model.

The Universities are an example, they'd be much more sucessful if we could get more foriegn students in instead of relying mainly on students from Turkey. Now the Universities have come under fire and now "universities" or so-called universites even though they are part of european associatons that recoginise them as such. These are private academic institions with only one out of the six being half owned by the government. Why are n't allowed to function as such? could it be that the GCs see that its a good money spinner and now have given the green light to new universities in the south?

I don't blame everthing on isolation, but I do believe that change from within the TC can not come without it being lifted. Talat even said as such when he came into power, he said he wanted to reduce dependance on Turkey but what has happened is the opposite since there is no way to manouver within the system as it is, we need trade and links with the outside world for that. There is no middle class in the north as such, the middle class could be defined as a family where two family memebers work for the government. These people are n't going to endager their livelyhoods with a sudden change that in the short term will cause them hardship, people vote for people who give them a rose tinted future even if it is BS 99% of the time.

You just cant have a functional economy when everything has to go through Turkey. So the cost of doing business basically doubles. As there are only a few companies with ships I could send a container half way around the world for the same price between Mersin and Famagusta ports simply because there is no competition between the companies here, they all conspire to keep prices high. Just by allowing international companies to stop at famagusata will kill the monopoly and losen the grip of the ruling elite in one area since they would have to actually compete. If you linked direct trade to harmonization with trade and market economic chapters of the aquis, you could actually build up a real private sector which would create a real middle class who that was n't tied to the government. You could then have a government that could instigate real change and much less dependance on Turkey. This is exactly how the AKP came to power in Turkey.

Regardless, anything I say here makes no difference because at the end of the day people have made up their own minds (I know I have) and "debate" is basically everyone trying to justifying their own position. I'm sure that I'ill be called a liar, theif, apologist, propogandist or parts of the above will be quoted out of context and I'ill be called a sly TC for being so clever or cold selfish one for not taking into account GCs feelings. I could also just be seeing things and deluding myself with my observations, "seeing how I want to see things or how the TRNC wants me too" as I've been told here on one occassion.

Actually I dis-associate myself from this post, if you are a GC reading this, I actually work for the TRNC ministry of information. If you are a TC then I am actually a GC in disguise. Have fun..