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what if Papadopoulos said Yes?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Viewpoint » Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:38 pm

Piratis
The 18% was given 29% of land, 50% of power, EU, lots of money etc.

The 82% didn't even get what it legally belongs to it, not even the basic human rights! And on top of that, it would have to pay for it!!!


Your leaders should have negotiated in goodfaith and not relied on Euro solution card, they would have pushed harder for issues that would have made you guys more comfortable with the plan.

So I will stick with my "pipe dream".



Fine by me you go for that pipe dream that will never materialize, take as long as you wish, time will eventually bring partition.
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:38 pm

insan wrote:What's given to Turkey with Annan 5, same was given to Greece.


On paper yes, but it doesn't have the same meaning in practice. Greece is too far away for its intervention rights to mean anything, and besides, GCs do not trust Greek intervention the same way that TCs trust Turkey's intervention.

insan wrote:It was obvious that majority of GCs would reject Annan 5 because GC leadership filled the brains of GC community with a well known "solution" thesis. Withdrawal of all Turkish troops, return of all refugees, repatriation of all settlers and majority rule. Do you think any plan that does not provide these things which promised by GC leadership; will ever be acceptable to majority GC community?


Official GC leadership has not been advocating majority rule since 1977, except for a few fringe parties. It has been understood since 1977 that the solution will include political equality. As for the other items you mentioned, yes, no settlers, no troops and return of refugees are essential for GCs - and power sharing is the price they are willing to pay in order to get these essentials. None of these three demands are incompatible with the bizonal - bicommunal Federation model which has been agreed between the two sides.

Of course, if the TC solution thesis is - as you seem to imply - that all settlers should remain, and that GC refugees should not have the right of return, and that the Turkish Army should be stationed in Cyprus permanently, then there is no point in discussing for a settlement. Go and complain to the international community about your isolation, and maybe in a few decades they will give you what you want.
Last edited by Alexandros Lordos on Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:50 pm

Oops!
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Postby Viewpoint » Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:54 pm

Alexandros Lordos
Of course, if the TC solution thesis is - as you seem to imply - that all settlers should remain, and that GC refugees should not have the right of return, and that the Turkish Army should be stationed in Cyprus permanently, then there is no point in discussing for a settlement. Go and complain to the international community about your isolation, and maybe in a few decades they will give you what you want.


You said it, we are so far apart on many issues that we should wait a few decades for gradual removal of isolation and recognition.
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:24 pm

Viewpoint wrote:Alexandros Lordos
Of course, if the TC solution thesis is - as you seem to imply - that all settlers should remain, and that GC refugees should not have the right of return, and that the Turkish Army should be stationed in Cyprus permanently, then there is no point in discussing for a settlement. Go and complain to the international community about your isolation, and maybe in a few decades they will give you what you want.


You said it, we are so far apart on many issues that we should wait a few decades for gradual removal of isolation and recognition.


Well, I certainly DON'T believe that the TC solution thesis is as above - any more than the GC solution thesis is "majority rule". I was just pointing out that Insan's way of phrasing the problem leads us into a zero-sum game mentality.

TCs - and correct me if I am wrong - insist on power sharing and some form of Turkish Guarantees, but not necessarily on all the rest. Creative solutions can be found on the issues of settlers, refugees and troops, so long as both sides are willing to seriously negotiate, and seriously take into account the concerns of the other side.
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Postby insan » Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:08 pm

Alexandros Lordos wrote:
insan wrote:What's given to Turkey with Annan 5, same was given to Greece.


On paper yes, but it doesn't have the same meaning in practice. Greece is too far away for its intervention rights to mean anything, and besides, GCs do not trust Greek intervention the same way that TCs trust Turkey's intervention.


Do you think under the circumstances of today a unilateral Turkish military intervention is possible. We all know under what circumstance and end of what processes Turkey launched a military intervention, unilatterally.

insan wrote:It was obvious that majority of GCs would reject Annan 5 because GC leadership filled the brains of GC community with a well known "solution" thesis. Withdrawal of all Turkish troops, return of all refugees, repatriation of all settlers and majority rule. Do you think any plan that does not provide these things which promised by GC leadership; will ever be acceptable to majority GC community?


Official GC leadership has not been advocating majority rule since 1977, except for a few fringe parties. It has been understood since 1977 that the solution will include political equality.


I still read on official RoC websites that they claim a solution should be based on classic democratic principles etc... It gives me the impression that GC leadership wants a German style reunification.

http://www.trncpresidency.org/press/opi ... _aktan.htm

As for the other items you mentioned, yes, no settlers, no troops and return of refugees are essential for GCs - and power sharing is the price they are willing to pay in order to get these essentials.


So why your leadership honestly did/do not ask nullification of treaty of guarantee, repatriation all settlers and return of all refugees? If it is essential for GC community; your leadership put their demands on the table as red lines of GC community.

TCs do not demand "political equality" in place of return of refugees, nullification of treaty of guarantee, repatriation of settlers etc. TCs legally have "political equality" since 1960. If you think "political equality" is the price of something, no it is not. It is the basic principle of bi-communality.


None of these three demands are incompatible with the bizonal - bicommunal Federation model which has been agreed between the two sides.


All refugees will return to their former properties and it will still be a bi-zonal, bi-communla federation?

Of course, if the TC solution thesis is - as you seem to imply - that all settlers should remain, and that GC refugees should not have the right of return, and that the Turkish Army should be stationed in Cyprus permanently, then there is no point in discussing for a settlement.


Was that what Annan 5 is? Our solution thesis is return of a certain number of GC refugees. TCs accepted around 2/4 of the refugees to return to the land which would be given back to GC administration. Besides 1/4 of the refugees to return TCCS. And the remaining 1/4 to would be compensated. It seems to me that you are trying to twist what I clearly stated.

Turkish and Greek army should be stationed in Cyprus permanently until these two allies and the future ally Cyprus decide nullyfying the treaty of guarantee. What's your problem with it? What is your alliance and friendship understanding?

I personally do not support all settlers to stay in Cyprus. Those who given citizenship in last 5 years should be rapatriated.


Go and complain to the international community about your isolation, and maybe in a few decades they will give you what you want.



Don't worry Alexandros, we well know what we should do. We don't need your advices. And it won't last 2 decades as you dream.

Fruitless 30 years prove my rightness. It's been more than 30 years, you still talking about a mutually acceptable reunification. TCs wasted their whole life just for a big zero. TCs wasted their lives for the so-called solution/reunification under inhumane embargos. And you still expect TCs to accept nullification of treaty, return of all refugees and majority rule.

Have you ever imagined GC community walking in TCs shoes in last 30 years. Imagine it is GC community under the embargos in the last 30 years. How many GCs would remain in South? What would be the development level of South? How would be the social, psychological, political enviroment of Sout?

It is obvious that you have never imagined this.
Last edited by insan on Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby insan » Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:41 pm

." Political Equality. On the political equality of the two communities, Clerides said he supported the concept as outlined by the U.N. Secretary-General, which refers to "not equal numerical participation, but effective participation of both communities in the federal government . . .
G. Clerides


http://kypros.org/Embassy/feb.html


Alexandros, can you elaborate what did Clerides mean?
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Postby pantelis » Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:44 pm

Do you think under the circumstances of today a unilateral Turkish military intervention is possible.


Iraq?
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Postby insan » Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:05 am

pantelis wrote:
Do you think under the circumstances of today a unilateral Turkish military intervention is possible.


Iraq?


Re Panteli don't hide yourself behind your finger. We are talking about the relations of 3 allies.
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:37 am

insan wrote:
." Political Equality. On the political equality of the two communities, Clerides said he supported the concept as outlined by the U.N. Secretary-General, which refers to "not equal numerical participation, but effective participation of both communities in the federal government . . .
G. Clerides


http://kypros.org/Embassy/feb.html


Alexandros, can you elaborate what did Clerides mean?


Yes, it is the precise principle on which the Annan Plan Presidential Council was based: Not numerical equality (4 GCs and 2 TCs), but effective participation (at least 1 TC member of the council must agree with each decision). Similarly in the legislature, not numerical equality (since the House of Deputies will be proportional), but effective participation (since at least a quarter of TC senators must agree with each decision).

This was the Clerides philosophy on political equality, and it was imported wholesale into the Annan Plan.

I am afraid Tassos is not too happy about these provisions however, he sees the matter differently from Clerides. For Tassos, the TCs should be content (political equality - wise) with the standard safeguards which a Federation provides, i.e. to control one of the two constituent states, and have numerical equality in some Federal organs (Senate, Supreme Court) while accepting majority rule in other organs (House of Deputies, Presidential Council). The Clerides idea of "positive participation" is repugnant to Tassos - and I predict this is going to be a very hard point in negotiations.

For me personally, "positive participation" plus "cross voting" is the best solution to this matter.

Going back to our previous posts, I will avoid inflaming the situation further. My first post was retaliatory, to your own original post concerning "the GC solution thesis", and I don't think it will be constructive to take the issue any further. It somewhat angered me that you identified the GC "No" to the Annan Plan with an "extreme and unrealistic solution thesis", and this is what tempted me to retaliate, but let's put all these sentiments aside for now.

It is true that there is an "extreme thesis" floating in the air somewhere, but it has taken a severe beating since the Annan Plan. Nowadays, most people tend to recognise the complexities involved, and understand for instance that some sort of property exchange will have to take place, or that some settlers might have to stay.

You are wondering why it was that the GC leadership did not make demands on the issue of security. Don't forget that the two most unacceptable elements of the security aspect, i.e. permanent presence of Turkish troops and right of Turkey to intervene in the GC state as well, were only introduced in Annan 5, in the last 2 days of a five-year negotiation process, by Annan himself, after the request of Turkey. If it wasn't for these two last-minute changes, the GCs could just about have swallowed the security aspect.

On property and residence, I believe that GCs will be willing to tolerate some necessary curtailments of their property rights, so long as they are not arbitrary and so long as some form of "right of return" will be retained by each refugee. I think TCs will also be willing to tolerate provisions that are slightly more generous to original owners than the Annan Plan was.

The settlers issue, however, will be very difficult to solve in a mutually acceptable way. Very difficult indeed. How can all the settlers be relocated out of GC land? And yet, the moment one settler remains in a GC property, the solution becomes intolerably insulting to the GCs ...
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