Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

It is the first time I read any of Mr Ismail's writings. But one part, where he says that the Greek Orthodox Church of Cyprus was given religious freedom for the first time ever by the Ottomans, begs the question:

When was this church created, why and by whom, if it was not to be allowed to be a free church?

Ismail ingores one thousand years of Byzantium. It is like discussing Turkey with nor reference to the Ottomans. Total nonsense.

The allegation that Cypriots in 1821 possessed cannon which were to be trained on Nicosia sounds outlandish. A look at the photos of Cyprus in 1878 shows a bedraggled wretched place. The people are all threadbare. These people were the owners of cannon 50 years before? Give us a break mr Ismail!

Cypriot fighters, a few dozen, went to Greece and took part in the 1821 revolution. Kanaris the bourlotier did visit Cyprus although the exact date is not known and it was more in an attempt to escape pursuit by the Ottoman fleet rather than to foment rebellion.

[Nikitas]

Megali Idea was a dream of recreation of the Hellenic nation on its historical ground. The geographical area involved does not justify the term "empire" used by Ismail. The areas involved- Pontos, Thrace, Western Asia Minor, the islands and mainland Greece were historically places where Hellenism existed for a very long time. I do not know where he got Alexandria from but the sources I have read do not mention it.

Rigas Ferraios, not Ferreros, met a death which was telling for future developments- he was assassinated by Ottoman secret agents.

A lot of what I read in the above excerpts from Ismail sound like inwillingness to accept that the Ottoman empire, like all empires, reached a zenith and then decayed. Instead of accepting and documenting this process Ismail tries to rationalise it in terms of treachery and dirty tricks.

I would like to read his account of the Bulgarian uprising and how the Ottoman empire reacted. The revolt happened in the 1870s, a time within living memory of the previous generation. The ferocity of the Ottomans raised universal reaction and it was indicative of the attitude of the Ottomans towards their subject people as late as the 1870s. This attitude is the reason for the fall of the empire and not any enemies or tricks.

[zan]

Megali Idea was a dream of recreation of the Hellenic nation on its historical ground. The geographical area involved does not justify the term "empire" used by Ismail. The areas involved- Pontos, Thrace, Western Asia Minor, the islands and mainland Greece were historically places where Hellenism existed for a very long time. I do not know where he got Alexandria from but the sources I have read do not mention it.

Rigas Ferraios, not Ferreros, met a death which was telling for future developments- he was assassinated by Ottoman secret agents.

A lot of what I read in the above excerpts from Ismail sound like inwillingness to accept that the Ottoman empire, like all empires, reached a zenith and then decayed. Instead of accepting and documenting this process Ismail tries to rationalise it in terms of treachery and dirty tricks.

I would like to read his account of the Bulgarian uprising and how the Ottoman empire reacted. The revolt happened in the 1870s, a time within living memory of the previous generation. The ferocity of the Ottomans raised universal reaction and it was indicative of the attitude of the Ottomans towards their subject people as late as the 1870s. This attitude is the reason for the fall of the empire and not any enemies or tricks.

Another case of self contradictions.......Did the Ottomans rule by aggression or not.....One minute you say that they did from the start and then that was their downfall 600 years is a long downfall don't you think

[Nikitas]

All empires rule by aggression. The Ottomans were no different. The downfall of each empire is inevitable, so history proves. It has nothing to do with aggression. But the attitude towards the subjects never changed to take into account the trends ot nationalism.

The Ottoman empire could no longer meet the challenges from the people within it. Nationalism was too strong a force to contain. Bulgaria is a good case in point because it is a European nation, orthodox christian and their revolt took place late and is well documented. The Ottomans reacted to the revolt as if they were back in the 15th century, it was outmoded ferocity which invited universal reaction.

I am still interested to see how mr Ismail's account of the Bulgarian revolt compares with what we were taught at A level history in England.

[BirKibrisli]

In question 9 Mr Ismail tackles the "How did the TCs and GCs react to the British Rule????"

For the TCs being torn form their motherland was the biggest pain of all...
As a result there were big waves of migration to Turkey after Cyprus game under British rule. One of the reasons why the TCs are less than GCs today.

Even as the Ottoman flag came down and the British one went up,the GCs begun calling for Enosis and insulting the TCs...
The were applauding the British thinking their rule would lead to Enosis...
It was made clear to Churchill who visited Cyprus in 1907 that their wish was "to join Cyprus with Greece"...And earlier in 1880,as Greece was preparing for War with Turkey,the Greek army officers who came to Cyprus to buy mules were given receptions,money and arms,and send them off with letters to the King demanding Union with Greece.

In 1979 the Greek Consul,Filemon,was sendign GC volunteers to Greece,and organising protests against the Turks. (He is actually using the term Turks to describe the Ottomans at that time- Bir )

Also,the Greek consul,Vatimbella,was harassing the TCs during 1916-1917,by organising marches in favour of Enosis. And in 1918 the Cyprus Bishop,Medaxakis was invited to Greece by Venizelos,and begun organising campaigns for Enosis. As you can see the GCs had no reason to complain about the British. As the change was heaven-sent for their Enosis activities...

[Nikitas]

It seems that mr Ismail has his chronology confused again. The "moularades", muleteers from Cyprus took part in WWI, not in 1880. As far as I recall there was no Greek-Turkish conflict in 1880. There was a brief war in 1897 which Greece lost with dramatic results. Why would anyone buy mules in 1880 to use 17 years later?

Ismail also forgets the administration structure under the British, where the combined votes of the British governor and the TCs reps outvoted the GCs. But oddly enough the British civil service hired proportionately more GCs than TCs.

[BirKibrisli]

It seems that mr Ismail has his chronology confused again. The "moularades", muleteers from Cyprus took part in WWI, not in 1880. As far as I recall there was no Greek-Turkish conflict in 1880. There was a brief war in 1897 which Greece lost with dramatic results. Why would anyone buy mules in 1880 to use 17 years later?

Ismail also forgets the administration structure under the British, where the combined votes of the British governor and the TCs reps outvoted the GCs. But oddly enough the British civil service hired proportionately more GCs than TCs.

He seems to pluck these "facts" out of thin air,Nikitas...
There are no references so far at all... This guy has written 26 of these books,as at year 2000.And, as an educated guess,I'd say some of these books are probably taught in schools in the North...

[Nikitas]

God help us!

The text reminds me of the fanatic and kitsch style of books published during the Greek junta. The lucky thing is that the style is so obvious it becomes a little comic, I just cannot see TCs taking this kind of text seriously.

To juxtapose the real world a little bit. Yesterday Greece's most popular travel and cooking star was broadcasting from Istanbul, showing favorited recipes and extolling the pleasures the city has to offer the visitor. In the meantime in Cyprus......

[zan]

God help us!

The text reminds me of the fanatic and kitsch style of books published during the Greek junta. The lucky thing is that the style is so obvious it becomes a little comic, I just cannot see TCs taking this kind of text seriously.

To juxtapose the real world a little bit. Yesterday Greece's most popular travel and cooking star was broadcasting from Istanbul, showing favorited recipes and extolling the pleasures the city has to offer the visitor. In the meantime in Cyprus......

What about the books in GC schools then...Do you approve of them.....Your "EX" EOKA minister does.....

[BirKibrisli]

In question 9 Mr Ismail tackles the "How did the TCs and GCs react to the British Rule????"

For the TCs being torn form their motherland was the biggest pain of all...
As a result there were big waves of migration to Turkey after Cyprus game under British rule. One of the reasons why the TCs are less than GCs today.

Even as the Ottoman flag came down and the British one went up,the GCs begun calling for Enosis and insulting the TCs...
The were applauding the British thinking their rule would lead to Enosis...
It was made clear to Churchill who visited Cyprus in 1907 that their wish was "to join Cyprus with Greece"...And earlier in 1880,as Greece was preparing for War with Turkey,the Greek army officers who came to Cyprus to buy mules were given receptions,money and arms,and send them off with letters to the King demanding Union with Greece.

In 1979 the Greek Consul,Filemon,was sendign GC volunteers to Greece,and organising protests against the Turks. (He is actually using the term Turks to describe the Ottomans at that time- Bir )

Also,the Greek consul,Vatimbella,was harassing the TCs during 1916-1917,by organising marches in favour of Enosis. And in 1918 the Cyprus Bishop,Medaxakis was invited to Greece by Venizelos,and begun organising campaigns for Enosis. As you can see the GCs had no reason to complain about the British. As the change was heaven-sent for their Enosis activities...

Sorry, 1979 above should of course be 1879...My appologies to Mr Ismail...Bir