Cyprus-Forum.com

[metecyp]

I agree that we don't need deep historical arguments, and they're useless anyway. But I still believe that it's relevant to talk about 1960s-1970s, because 1960 agreement is the last agreement accepted by both parties, and we need to figure out why it failed so we can have a new agreement without the pitfalls of the 1960 agreements.

I only care about the future. I want to live in a democratic country where all my human rights are respected and be an equal EU citizen. Am i asking for too much?

No you're not asking too much, but if I tell you that I need some safety precautions for my community, am I asking too much? The key is goodwill here. The reason why you don't believe that the exceptions provided in Annan plan are going to be irrelevant in the future is because you don't trust TC side. And the reason why TCs need exceptions is because they don't trust GC side. So we have to start somewhere to break this cycle that lasted almost half a century now and wasted our lives.

I'm telling you, if TCs live side by side with GCs in a united Cyprus for a generation, we won't have any of these issues, but we have to go through that process first.

And finally, EU, US, UK, and UN all believe that this plan is fair. This is the only plan we have that is widely supported by everyone. Especially EU supports this plan and you know that EU stands for democracy and human rights. So now you're telling me that all these countries are playing a trick on you? You sincerely believe that EU is supporting a plan that is against its principles? Denktas also thinks that the whole world is against himself.

[antonis]

The plan is unbalanced, this is true.

Is this really true?

I believe it is Mete. The 3rd Annan plan was more balanced I believe. The balance had changed considerably with the 4th Annan plan, and was brought closer to the equilibrium again with the 5th, but it is still unbalanced. As for the Greek and Turkish soldiers, it is a matter of principle, it is something I cannot live with.

Secondly, does anyone know how many settlers are supposed to stay on the island?

I do not have access to the law on citizenship, I don't think they have changed it from Annan 3. There is a list of 45000 "extras" that do not satisfy the proviso "any person who held Cypriot citizenship in 1963 and his or her descendants and the spouses of such citizens". There is a list of criteria that the 45000 have to satisfy, and an order of priority. This is (for Annan 3):

i) persons 18 years of age or older who enjoyed permanent residence in Cyprus for at least seven years before reaching the age of 18 and for at least one year during the last five years and their minor children who enjoy permanent residence in Cyprus;
ii) other persons who have enjoyed permanent residence in Cyprus for more than seven consecutive years, based on the length of their stay.

All I'm saying is that 45000 is a lot. It's about 60% of "real" TCs (correct me if I'm wrong)... and you only have to have look at the results from the December vote to find out where they reside... If they weren't there, then who knows... Now Annan 5 would be an agreement and not a "constructed" plan...

[metecyp]

All I'm saying is that 45000 is a lot. It's about 60% of "real" TCs (correct me if I'm wrong)...

I'm not sure about the real population of TC vs. Turks, but if we think about the population of whole Cyprus being 800.000 (650.000 GCs, 150.000 TCs), then is 45.000 too much?

I'm not trying to argue that all settlers should remain. I also want most of them, especially the ones that have no interaction with TCs, leave. However, again 45.000 settlers don't bother me when I consider the whole plan and its benefits to whole Cyprus. I don't know maybe it's a big deal for you, and I understand why it might be, but again I prefer to think about the whole situation rather than bits and pieces.

[Piratis]

No you're not asking too much, but if I tell you that I need some safety precautions for my community, am I asking too much?

No, but your safety precautions should not limit my human rights and democracy. Also, with a demilitarized Cyprus and a Turkish army 10 times bigger and 10 times closer to Cyprus than the Greek army I really don't understand how you need "safety precautions" while we don't. No offense but I think you are using this just to gain more...

The key is goodwill here....I'm telling you, if TCs live side by side with GCs in a united Cyprus for a generation, we won't have any of these issues, but we have to go through that process first.

... and you will never give anything back. You really underestimate our intelligence when you say that with goodwill and time things will change. If people on this planet where able to understand when what they have is too much and give it back then we would live in a perfect world without poor people and without wars. But we are not in this perfect world. Once you gained something you will not give it back just because of goodwill.
The only light in this unfair world is when we all accept some universal principles that can make this world more fair. These are democracy and respect to human rights. Unfortunately you do not seem willing to accept these.

So now you're telling me that all these countries are playing a trick on you?

Those countries support their own interests like they always did. You doubt about this?

You sincerely believe that EU is supporting a plan that is against its principles?

There are derivations from the EU principles. This is a simple fact, not my opinion.

[metecyp]

There are derivations from the EU principles. This is a simple fact, not my opinion.

So EU, the center of human rights and democracy, is not bothered by these derivations, they do not think that these derivations will undermine the basic principles of EU, but you, as a citizen of a country that is about to join EU, think otherwise. This is ironic for me. I wouldn't be surprised if you soon start calling EU non-democratic and not respecting human rights since it supports Annan plan in Cyprus.

[Piratis]

We are not in EU yet. Do you think is coincidence that everybody rushed to "solve" the Cyprus problem before we enter the EU?

Everybody including you and me and the EU, is looking at their own interests. If this sounds ironic to you then welcome to the planet earth.

[metecyp]

Everybody including you and me and the EU, is looking at their own interests. If this sounds ironic to you then welcome to the planet earth

I think it's still ironic that you try to defend EU rights and principles more than EU itself. EU said it's ok for them to have some derivations of their principles in Cyprus, so what are you complaining about? If you believe that EU is working against you, then why are you so eager to be part of it?

Before Switzerland talks, I didn't hear anything bad about EU from you, because it was working for you. You were about to become a EU citizen, and you hoped that EU would help you to get rid of Turkish army and get the "democratic" structure you want (where TCs have no rights as community).

However, EU did not really help you too much in Switzerland. The only thing they did was probably to tell the Turkish side that derogations cannot be forever. Now, all of a sudden, EU is "looking at their own interests" and all that.

[Piratis]

1)I am defending my rights and principles.
2) How is EU working against us? They just said some things because they naturally do not want to have another problem in the EU.
3)We are not an EU member yet. I ask you again: Why everybody rushed to solve the problem before May 1st?

EU is a union of states. Each state has its own interests and some states have more power than some others. Nobody said that EU will come and solve our problem in the best possible way. Did you see me writing such thing?
But it is better for us to fight for our rights within the EU. After May 1st we will still be the weak side, but we will now be more powerful than before May 1st. This is why we were so eager to be part of it.

[metecyp]

3)We are not an EU member yet. I ask you again: Why everybody rushed to solve the problem before May 1st?

You tell me, I'm curious what your opinion is.

But it is better for us to fight for our rights within the EU. After May 1st we will still be the weak side, but we will now be more powerful than before May 1st. This is why we were so eager to be part of it.

Yes, it would have been much better for you to fight for your rights within EU if Turkish side left the negotiation table like before. You could have played the same game and say "See we want a solution but the Turkish side doesn't" and convince the whole world about your side's peace-loving nature.

But now, how exactly fighting your rights within the EU will help you when your side is the one rejecting a EU supported plan? Don't you think that EU will restructure its thoughts about Cyprus problem when TCs accept a plan approved by the whole world while GC reject it?

[Piratis]

Look, we will not give up our human rights and democracy. For nobody and for nothing.
If you can deprive us from democracy and our human rights in one way or another then do it, but don't expect from us to surrender. We will not do it - NEVER.

The Ottoman empire occupied Cyprus for centuries, like many other empires did. But we are still here and we will remain here and will keep fighting for our rights.