Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

Kifeas, as far as I understood you confuse the Cypriotness with Cypriotism. Therefore you base your arguments on cypriotism that does not exists in Cyprus.

No Insan, I do no confuse the above two terms. In the postings under discussion, I didn’t use these terms at all.

Your arguments clearly give me the impression that you are a defender of Germany style reunification.
Did I misunderstand you?

Again No, I didn’t suggest something like this and I would like to know from where this conclusion was derived.

- You want a mixed federal Cyprus based on Cypriotism. What does this mean? I think it is nothing else than a German style reunification. Where it leads us? I think nowhere else than a GC state with a Turkish minority.

Again No, what I suggest is a federal system with political equality but one that will be based on a territory (Constituent state) basis, with guaranteed majority of each community in each one of the constituent states, but with participation of permanent residents hailing from the other community in all the political activities of the other community’s Constituent state, both in the internal CS state legislation and government level and also participation at the Federal level. If you remember, A-plan proposes two legislating houses for the Federal state. Lower and upper house (parliament and senate.) The first one is formed on the basis of CS internal citizenship and the second one is formed on the basis of “ethnicity,” irrespective of CS internal citizenship. I prefer only one house, the first one that will be based on CS citizenship and to do away with the second one that is based on “ethnicity.” This doesn’t convert the TC community to the status off a minority, because the political equality is going to be exercised thorough it’s constituent state, in which it will have a permanent majority. It will still be a form of political equality, although slightly more diluted in order to counterbalance and address the GC concerns, arising from the substantial number of remaining settlers and the consequent fear of mainland Turkish involvement and domination of both the TCCS and the Federal state.

I don't think this is a concern of GC community. This is a belief of GC community based on some elements:

1- Being numerically more populated community.
2- Considering Cyprus a Hellen Island.

I do not understand what you exactly mean here. This paragraph doesn’t seem to combine with the previous one. Do you mean the GC community is not concerned by the substantial amount of settlers and enormous political power and role that they can potentially play? Do you mean it is a fictitious concern? Is it a sneaky concern? Please explain here.
As for Cyprus being a Hellenic island, my answer is NO. Cyprus belongs to its people and should be governed by its people. Perhaps (for sure, instead,) the A-plan formula was going to make it belong to and governed by the settlers and Turkey through its formula, which would have given to a number of 60-65 thousand foreign people the power to dictate their will on the indigenous people numbering 800,000, out of which 700,000 thousand have a continues historical presence of more than 3,500 years. Sorry for the sarcasm.

- You want no restrictions for return of refugees, right to property, right to settlement. Where does this lead us? Relocation of vast majority of TCs. Relocation of vast majority of TCs means a huge depression and sufferings; sociologically, economically, psychologically.

Answer is again No. I already explain in a previous posting that the number of returning GCs and properties within the TCCS and with GC political rights to state and Fed level should be regulated by the percentage of territory that the TCCS will have. With a 25% of TCCS territory, the total amount of GCs and properties should be between 20%-25% of the total TCCS population (GCs included.)

- TC community showed respect to concerns of GC community about this issue and agreed to relocation of 1/3 of TCs and gradual return of GC refugees up to %33 of permanent TC residents of TCCS. But you want no restriction is put to right to return of GC refugees. If I'm mistaken please correct me.

No, please read above. According to A-plan the 33% of GCs as a maximum, was not for permanent residents (i.e. without political rights.) It included also those with the right to have a secondary residence (i.e. as tourists only to spend their holiday budget and pay some communal taxes, but without any political right.) According to A-plan, only 18% was the maximum percentage of GCs with political rights and those political rights were reduced only to the internal CS level.

- TC community have concerns about GC leadership, GC extremists and GC self-interest groups. Therfore, they need a balance of powers in Cyprus which will provide security for two communities.

We can agree for an E.U. or U.N. force that will be commanded by an entity other than Turkey and Greece. If Greece and Turkey wish to participate, they can do so within the above context, but the commandingship will belong to ether E.U. or UN. We can finance such a force by ourselves; Like RoCy is currently doing for the U.N. troops in Cyprus.

TCs agreed gradual reduction of military power on both sides of Cyprus. But you want withdrawal of all Turkish troops. You have concerns about Turkey's interference in TC politics, we have concerns about Greece-GC common economical, strategical and political plans.

My above “recipes” perfectly answer all your concerns here. We do not want Greek or Turkish interference, neither political nor military. There are no Greece – GC common strategic and /or political plans. This is a fictitious accusation. At the moment yes, there are common political plans because we have no solution yet. Unlike Turkey, there is no aspiration or a need for a permanent Greek military presence in Cyprus. Turkish Cypriots can have equal economic, cultural, educational ties with Turkey. GCs have no objection to it.

We believe that the plans of Greece and GC plans based upon interests of Hellenism will clash with the interests of TC community that is based on interests of majority of TC community.

Which are these long-term strategic and political Hellenic interests that you keep mentioning?

GC leadership has always freely worked with Greek government and established common strategies and policies in all areas.

Which areas, specifically?

But you say you have concerns if TC community establishes such a strong relationship with Turkey. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I am concerned about permanent Turkish political interference through settlers, domination and protectorisation. Not about economic, social, cultural relationships.

[insan]

http://www.grecoreport.com/COG_Speaks_O ... s_Plan.htm

Aris Spanos, economic professor at the University of Cyprus, paid tribute to Simitis' academic and political life and said ''Simitis, the politician and the academic, is truly a moderniser, a politician with a new approach.''

''Hellenism in Cyprus lays its hopes on a strong Greece,'' Spanos added.

This was the first time the University of Cyprus has awarded an honorary doctorate and the ceremony was attended by politicians and intellectuals.

http://www.hri.org/news/cyprus/cna/1996 ... 2.cna.html

"Greece is here because Cyprus is Greece," Stephanopoulos told the Primate of the Church of Cyprus, Archbishop Chrysostomos, when the latter welcomed him at the Archbishopric Palace.

The Greek President, who arrived here today for a four-day official visit, said "Greece is here not as an ally or even a supporter but because Cyprus is Greece."

He noted that Greece has not only legal but also moral, national and patriotic obligations to Cyprus, which it will not relinquish.

"Greece and Cyprus are not two separate entities, they are not two separate nations, they are one nation, two states," he stressed, noting that common goals makes them identify with each other in their objectives.

Greece, he said, aims to secure not only its territorial integrity and that of Cyprus but also its national dignity and pride.

"Under these circumstances, the joint defence pact will continue to exist from Thrace to Cyprus, where hellenism is under pressure and faces expansionist disposition," Stephanopoulos said.

http://www.hri.org/news/cyprus/cna/1998 ... 1.cna.html



It's enough I think.

[Kifeas]

It's enough I think.

Is this your answer to my entire posting?

[insan]

It's enough I think.

Is this your answer to my entire posting?

Kifeas, my whole idea was based on what Stephanopoulos strongly stressed in his speech. This is a fact we can't ignore it. Therefore we should find a solution formula that also involves Turkey. Both Greece and Turkey have similar interests on Cyprus(actually in the region as a whole). If Turkey is pushed to stay outside; both majority of TCs and Turkey will reject it. If we want a real unity; TCs, GCs, Greece and Turkey should at least have some common interests which will unite and stimulate them for peaceful co-existence, cooperation and collaboration. Otherwise the conflicting interests of concerned parties will always cause tensions and strife between the concerned parties.

Nevertheless, I'm ready to accept what is acceptable to seperate majority of two communities.

[Kifeas]

Kifeas, my whole idea was based on what Stephanopoulos strongly stressed in his speech. This is a fact we can't ignore it.

Insan, what you continuously fail to understand, I hope not purposefully, is that speeches are one thing and the essence is another. This and many other similar speeches are made within the context, or taking into consideration, the current (present) situation in Cyprus. They do not reflect and will not reflect the situation that should emerge after the solution. Similar and even more severe speeches are made on behalf of the Turkish side too. We do not expect and we do not project the verbalism of Turkish politics, that is made under the current situation, i.e. no solution in place, to make any such sense, once a solution is agreed.

Therefore we should find a solution formula that also involves Turkey.

Ok, I agree! The solution formula should involve Turkey in the same way and to the same extent that GCs want it to involve Greece. Do you agree on that?

Both Greece and Turkey have similar interests on Cyprus(actually in the region as a whole).

Ok! Can we agree not accommodate any of their interests? Or at least accommodate them only to the extent that we want, on an even level, and regardless of how much they want us to accommodate them. Can we agree on that principle?

If Turkey is pushed to stay outside; both majority of TCs and Turkey will reject it.

Both Greece and Turkey should be pushed outside, at least on a political interference and strategic level. No problem with economic, cultural, social and any other type of relationship.

If we want a real unity; TCs, GCs, Greece and Turkey should at least have some common interests which will unite and stimulate them for peaceful co-existence, cooperation and collaboration. Otherwise the conflicting interests of concerned parties will always cause tensions and strife between the concerned parties.

There is no problem for Cyprus to play the role of bridging any differences between the two countries on any level, as long as Cyprus itself maintains its autonomy and political integrity.

Nevertheless, I'm ready to accept what is acceptable to seperate majority of two communities.

I am not sure what you exactly mean here. You mean in case of a new solution proposal you will accept what the people of the two communities will decide? If this is what you mean, that goes without saying. Democracy is above all.

[insan]

I am not sure what you exactly mean here. You mean in case of a new solution proposal you will accept what the people of the two communities will decide? If this is what you mean, that goes without saying. Democracy is above all.

Yes this is exactly what I meant. I support most demands of TC community and some demands of GC community. I have already shared all of my views here on this board. That's all from me. All Cypriots are struggling in direction of their own perspective and beliefs. It seems to me that in the past 40 years we couldn't manage to reach a common ground on the basic parameters of a solution that would be acceptable to majority of each community, respectively. I have nothing more to add at the moment. I'll just listen to the others for a while. Let's keep suffering while we discuss. It is very hard to struggle under the unjust economic sanctions but anyway... I hope soon the world's dominant political powers realize this injustice and lift the economic sanctions imposed upon TC community.

Regards.

[boulio]

It is very hard to struggle under the unjust economic sanctions but anyway... I hope soon the world's dominant political powers realize this injustice and lift the economic sanctions imposed upon TC community.

famagusta and larnaca are still on the table yet you do nothing,if those proposols worked out who knows they may have come up with something for direct flights that suites both sides,but you still do nothing.blame your politicians for your economic misery not the roc.the 259 million are in brussels,im sure they could have been used in the north to improve infrastructere,build schools and hospitals but instead you chose to politize the ROC offer which is a genuine offer(including the green line regs.)which will certanly pump income into the north.and you still do nothing.

[insan]

It is very hard to struggle under the unjust economic sanctions but anyway... I hope soon the world's dominant political powers realize this injustice and lift the economic sanctions imposed upon TC community.

famagusta and larnaca are still on the table yet you do nothing,if those proposols worked out who knows they may have come up with something for direct flights that suites both sides,but you still do nothing.blame your politicians for your economic misery not the roc.the 259 million are in brussels,im sure they could have been used in the north to improve infrastructere,build schools and hospitals but instead you chose to politize the ROC offer which is a genuine offer(including the green line regs.)which will certanly pump income into the north.and you still do nothing.

TCs will never sell their rights for a several thousand $. GC administration is not the representative of TC community. TCs do not recognize the defacto GC government of RoC as the representative of TC community.

[MicAtCyp]

In towns most of the houses also built of mud bricks but the wealthy members of each community had houses built of yellow stone.

You are wrong! The average GC in 1974 had a brick house.The average TC a mud made one.

its obvious you no longer want the land back because you cannot use it for the purpose you were intending, you should be paid by the property board

For me it is obvious Kifeas wants ALL his OWN land back.
Can you explain us where the property board will find the money? By taking it from the pocket of Kifeas pearhaps?
That's what pisses me off with people like you VP. You accepted the Anan Plan knowing damn well how the trick with the property board would work. It would donate you the properties of GCs and the GCs themselves would pay the property board to compensate (?) themselves. The fact is the GCs would NEVER be compensated. The money they would get from bonds maturing 30 years later would not be enough for Kifeas to even buy a bicycle.

Besides TC family has to prove that the responsible of the unresolved Cyprus problem is GC administration

The ONLY one responsible is Turkey, and it has already been proven so by the countless UN resolutions.

- You want no restrictions for return of refugees, right to property, right to settlement.

Exactly!! We want freedom. Do you have a problem?

Where does this lead us? Relocation of vast majority of TCs.

You must take reasonable risks.Forget about guarantees, there can be no guarantees by depriving us our human rights and basic freedoms.
If there is exchange of equal to equal properties, no more than 30% of the TCs will need to relocate.(Remember about half the TCs were already in the North before 1974) If there are private agreements for renting properties that don't belong to you this percentage becomes even lower.

Relocation of vast majority of TCs means a huge depression and sufferings; sociologically, economically, psychologically.

Relocation compared to forced throwing out of 200,000 GC refugess is like moving from one house to another over a weekend, during a shiny day, under conditions of peace. It will also help your concience get releif for using stolen properties for so long. The sociological, economic, and psychological problems you see, are only in your imagination.

''Hellenism in Cyprus lays its hopes on a strong Greece,'' Spanos added.

''Turkism in Cyprus lays its hopes on a strong Turkey,'' xxx said....

Greece is here because Cyprus is Greece,"

Turkey is here because Cyprus is Turkey another guy says.

Now watch our friend Insan getting frightened the shit out of him, and then sitting on his computer, roaming the internet faster than the fastest demon, to find more evidences to complete his Hellenic conspiracy theory.

[insan]

Whateverz... next time don't forget to bring your proofs together with your arguments. I promised admin not to retaliate anyone's offensive posts. I informed admin about your offensive post. I hope admin does his job.