Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

Copperline's post should be informative for Zan who is very much into the ownership thing.

[CopperLine]

Further, it was not Greeks who 'owned' Macedonia, Crete or Byzantium. It was not Turks who 'owned' Anatolia or the Ottomon Empire. It was not the English who 'owned' England. Where 'ownership' has mattered it has not been in relation to a 'nation' or a 'people' let alone a 'culture', instead it has everything to do with class rule. Those in whose hands property ownership concentrates is not a nation, it is a class. And throughout modern history (and early modern history) the propertied classes have been thoroughly international, and rarely national in character.

You can bet your last dollar that the ruling/propertied class is not having interminable and circular debates as to whether Cyprus is Greek or Turkish or anything else. They're more than happy to let mugs on this forum exhauist themselves on nationalist angst while they, the non-national internationalist capitalist class, are relaxing living of our labour.

Perennial arguments about the highly theoretical and utterly tenuous origins or ownership of this 'nation' or that 'nation' merely distracts attention from the real causes of our circumstances : interests of capital and an international capiatalist class.

[Nikitas]

Copperline,

Several times in the last few months I tried to introduce discussion of the class aspect and its role in the Cyprus issue. The posts were ignored. Obviously you are right, the people in this forum do not perceive the class aspect and how it affected the course of the recent history of Cyprus.

The other aspect of the Cyprus issue is the bottom up aspect (for want of a better term) in the original EOKA sgtruggle against the British. The EOKA fighters were peasant boys who espoused the ideal of union with Greece. There was no middle class involvement. And as was expected, with the coming of independence the EOKA personnel were rewarded with government posts and the middle class was left out. The political debate on the island was thus restricted to the intellectual range possessed by these fighters and people were arbitrarily divided into patriots and non patriots.

From posts by Bir and others I guess the same happened in the TC community. The situation was hardly conducive to enlightened debate which might have included a different course for Cyprus other than ethnic conflict. But then, such debate would have prevented the quiet financial empire building which allowed some Cypriots to grow from small time contractors and merchants to international jet setters. And that also goes for both sides.

[Pumpy]

Again, the teacher leaves the classroom unattended for a few hours and look at the scene of carnage that lays before me.

I'll try ONE MORE TIME and maybe Piratis the Nationalist will finally allow it to sink in.

I am not disputing for one moment that most GCs see themselves and identify themselves as Greek. Fair enough, whatever floats your boat. Many individuals require a collective sense of identity, especially where tehir pride and place in the world has been robbed by foreign powers (kinda hits home that) - take a look at the Scots (they are fiercely proud, and even need the English to provide them with a made up identity in clans and kilts).

My contention is one of DNA, ethnicity and genealogy. GCs are not ethnically Greek. Absolutely not. I mean, really, they are not. The blend is such that relegates Greekness to that of a minor trait (Middle Eastern and Asia Minor being the real hotbeds of ancestrial activities).

But my fellow GCs wont have this. you see. Because they can't bear the very notion of their nationalistic roots being challenged. They are such fiercely patriotic flag wavers, yet who's flag is it? It aint theirs.

How embarassing.

Remember, GCs. You are Cypriot, not Greek. Stop digging.

[phoenix]

..... My contention is one of DNA, ethnicity and genealogy. GCs are not ethnically Greek. Absolutely not. I mean, really, they are not. The blend is such that relegates Greekness to that of a minor trait (Middle Eastern and Asia Minor being the real hotbeds of ancestrial activities).....

.....Care to expand on this for us Pumpy .... seems like you are at the foreskin of Science

A real hotbed for Eugenicists like yourself. Would love to see what piece of DNA you have as evidence for your firmly held and unshakable views ..... which if I my make an observation; you are using merely to taunt, since you cannot pinpoint any real information for us to dissect and discuss.

Oh well, your opinion may have to suffice

(I've already made my mind up on that )

[Piratis]

My contention is one of DNA, ethnicity and genealogy. GCs are not ethnically Greek. Absolutely not. I mean, really, they are not. The blend is such that relegates Greekness to that of a minor trait (Middle Eastern and Asia Minor being the real hotbeds of ancestrial activities).

Again you are talking without facts. Can you provide us such research that would show for example that the DNA between Cypriots and people from Thesaloniki has more differences than between say Cretans and people from Thesaloniki?

Greeks from the mainland and the other islands have the same blend as we do and the differences between the DNA of Greeks would therefore vary as much as the differences in the DNA of most other nations. Didn't we already agree that there is no such thing as "pure nation" already? So why you have such a big problem with Greeks? Go to a Marseille Forum and tell them that they are not French because they have DNA differences with the Parisians

Further, it was not Greeks who 'owned' Macedonia, Crete or Byzantium. It was not Turks who 'owned' Anatolia or the Ottomon Empire. It was not the English who 'owned' England. Where 'ownership' has mattered it has not been in relation to a 'nation' or a 'people' let alone a 'culture', instead it has everything to do with class rule. Those in whose hands property ownership concentrates is not a nation, it is a class. And throughout modern history (and early modern history) the propertied classes have been thoroughly international, and rarely national in character.

You equate "ownership" with "rule". So when Hitler ruled France did Hitler own France? Well, thats one way to see it.
The way I see it, a territory is owned by the people that have always, or for a very long time, inhabited that land and not by some local ruling class, and definitely not by the armies/settlers of some foreign ruler.

In the case of Cyprus, it is owned by Cypriots. And, to connect this to the original topic, all Cypriots should be free to identify themselves as they wish and decide the destiny of their own island in a democratic way.

[zan]

Copperline's post should be informative for Zan who is very much into the ownership thing.

Nikitas

Don't get carried away by some throw away comment I made about Cyprus ownership......If you paid as much attention to what I have been saying for the last two years and not so much to something I said once to counter and to rile a fool that claims that Cyprus is Greek, then you would know that I too agree with Copperline on ownership. You have been in Cyprus for 10,000 years and we have been there for nearly five hundred years (Though I couldn't give a monkeys arse about these numbers) and my blood has mixed with the original Cypriots and so has yours. With that you have ownership and so do I..That does not make me any less Turkish or you Greek in todays terms.......If you like you can claim Cyprus as your own al you like but you will never get me to agree to that no more than I would expect you to agree to my throw away comment about my ownership. The argument is as stupid as the one put forward by that Rebel guy who said that Cyprus was not joined to Turkey when amebas owned the earth,,,Who gives a shit.....Today is what I am concerned with and the recent history of my Republic......That does not exist and I have said why.......

[zan]

Copperline,

Several times in the last few months I tried to introduce discussion of the class aspect and its role in the Cyprus issue. The posts were ignored. Obviously you are right, the people in this forum do not perceive the class aspect and how it affected the course of the recent history of Cyprus.

The other aspect of the Cyprus issue is the bottom up aspect (for want of a better term) in the original EOKA sgtruggle against the British. The EOKA fighters were peasant boys who espoused the ideal of union with Greece. There was no middle class involvement. And as was expected, with the coming of independence the EOKA personnel were rewarded with government posts and the middle class was left out. The political debate on the island was thus restricted to the intellectual range possessed by these fighters and people were arbitrarily divided into patriots and non patriots.

From posts by Bir and others I guess the same happened in the TC community. The situation was hardly conducive to enlightened debate which might have included a different course for Cyprus other than ethnic conflict. But then, such debate would have prevented the quiet financial empire building which allowed some Cypriots to grow from small time contractors and merchants to international jet setters. And that also goes for both sides.

You really need to get a rip on this EOKA thing mate...Did yoiu even look at the list I posted where it clearly showed that one member became the minister for education and some other person became the president of the "RoC"... Teachers, shop owners......etc etc etc..........What planet are you on.......

[Nikitas]

Zan

I think you are misconstruing the post re the class structure of the EOKA. What I am saying is that the educated middle class in both communities was not in the fore of the EOKA and TMT drive. The people who believed, or fell for the ideals represented by each organization, choose whichever suits you, were not the educated elite.

During the later years, the people who ruled in both communities were drawn from the rank and file of EOKA and TMT. The educated classes were again in the background. The rich did what they did best, they made money.

In my opinion the overbearing presence of former EOKA and TMT fighters prevented normal political debate and facilitated the spiral that led to the events of 1974. I put it as briefly as possible to save time and space.

[humanist]

umit

That is the sort of behavior that put Cyprus in the situation it is now. They gotta learn to cope with TC's.

dear Umit

I would like you to reflect on your comments above. Perhaps you may see something different if you account for the fact that your comunity in assistance with Turkey have occupied part of the Island for the last 34 years, excluded and continue to exclude the rightful owners and have shut that part of Cyprus to the rest of Cypriots. Whilst we do cope with those Cypriots who come over to us each and every day working and shopping adn living with us.

Your regime on the other hand is wiling to sell off our properties, violate our rights and discriminate against te Greek speaking Cypriots who live in Rizokarpaso by taking their lands away from them also and they continue to live there.


Copperline and some others have some useful thoughts and ideas to share and it may be worth yourwhile reading and absorbing their posts.