Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

All Cypriots should take a trip through the Mediterranean region to see how much we have in common with other big islands of the area, often more in common with them than our respective "motherlands". It is not accident that the people of these islands (Sardinia, Corsica, Sicily) have cultural differences from their respective mainlands. Differences that often border on the problematic.

If we are to remain independent then we must realise we need each other. It is the presence of the other that guarantees independence. If there were no TCs Cyprus would be a district of Greece by now and the reverse would be true too. How many here want to see Cyprus a district of their respective "motherland"? First we settle that question and then we can move on.

My conviction is that the crushing majority would prefer independence even if there was no "other" community.

[Marz]

Bir, well done finally i can read a post from a TC without smartass remarks and sarcasm and prejudice.

i have a question iwant you to elaborast for me, in your post you said this:

"time to prove it is now...There are very simple and symbolic gestures which can be taken to calm the fears of the minority in a future fully democratic Cyprus "

What fears do you have after not being threatened or intimidated for the last 35 years, with 40,000 troops on the island. You still dont feel safe.
You might as well say all the other minorities dont feel safe either then.
If anyone has been intimidated since then its us.

Cheers.

[Piratis]

Cyprus is as Hellenic as any other Hellenic territory and island.

If Cypriots want to be part of the Greek state or have their own independent state this should be a decision taken democratically by the Cypriots themselves, not something forced by foreigners.

The American people choose to be independent from the the UK. To be more precise, the majority of the American people choose, because as we all know there was a minority (loyalists) who didn't agree. Similarly many islands and territories in general choose to be part of a bigger state. There is nothing wrong with that either. Otherwise every island and every city should have been independent.

The problem in Cyprus is that foreigners forced on Cypriots their will and they did not allow Cypriots to take their own democratic choices for their own island.

Not everybody can agree. In fact this is impossible. Still decisions should be taken. The way decisions should be taken in the 21st century is by democratic means, and democracy means majority rule, human and minority rights. Unfortunately those foreigners have forced on Cypriots their will as if we are still living in the middle ages where decisions are taken by force instead of democratic means.

That said, the majority of Cypriots today would definitely choose a real independence over any other arrangement. However many Cypriots see that small Cyprus can not be allowed to have a full real independence with a real democracy. This is why some of them would prefer if Cyprus was part of Greece, instead of under the control of the UK and Turkey.

Personally I am 100% in favor of making a compromise to this right of ours in order to sutisfy the minority of TCs and exclude the possibility of union with Greece. However those TCs should get over their hate for everything Greek and accept that this island has a long Hellenic history and stop expecting from us to write off 3500 years of history just to sutisfy their hate for everything Greek. If they hate everything Greek then Cyprus is the wrong island for them and they shouldn't have come here in the first place.

We as individuals had no choice what our forfathers did in the past, we arrived on the scene indigenous to this island so the lame excuse go settle elsewhere is neither here nor there. We TCs do not everything Greek, we respect your history, religion and right to live on this island in peace. Respecting all these does not give you the right to "democratically" sell us out to the Greeks, we have shown that we will fight this everytime and faced with the same end each community woudl do exactly the same unless they are a willing party which now I am sure you have realized we are not.

The dilema you GCs face today is accepting we are equal partners, 2 equal communities, this was reflected in the referendum when both sides had to say yes, if we had of said no like you did then things woudl not have moved forward. So this means we are equals we have just as much wiehgt as the GC community.

Now when it comes to a solution, they key is sharing of political power as 2 equal communites locatd in 2 areas north and south, are you prepared to move forward on the 2 fundamental points Piratis?

Problem is VP that you continue doing against Cyprus the exact same things that your forefathers did. In fact since you set your foot on our island you never stopped committing crimes and using force to stop Cypriots to rule their own island in a democratic way. Every Cypriot generation on this island for the last 4+ centuries has suffered from Turks, and this continues today.

We face no fake dilemmas my friend. We live on this island for 1000s of years and we have passed way worst situations than today. You on this island are a minority. You can live as equal Cypriots and equal EU citizens, with your minority rights respected, or you can continue the war against us in your effort to steal from us the north part of our country and have other unfair and undemocratic gains on our loss.
If your choice is war, then be sure we will fight this war until the end. What you won in 1974 was just the first battle. You are not a winners by any means, and if you have any doubts about this you should look yourselves in the mirror to wake up.

[Viewpoint]

viewpoint, Dr.B deserves respect because he is a Human being. The fact that he is Turcophone has nothibg to do with it. A lesson you can learn from him is to place your own Nationalism somewhere below the compassion you can offer others as a person. Ignoring someone because they are "Greek" is just plain ignorant. Generalising that all "Greeks" are the same is no better. When a "Greek" treats you with the same intolerance you should reflect on how much harm is produced by the blame game that always follows such behaviour.

You will not have your partition, and the "Greeks" (who are not at all unlike yourself) will not annihlate your "race". I suggest you, like myself search for something better.

repulse where did I say I hate anyone.

The point I was trying to make was the vast difference between the posts of Bir and Kikapu, Birs shows the classic signs of a concerned TC where as Kikapu's posts are full of hate and venom towards TC, Turks and the TRNC, our safe haven for 34 years.

[Piratis]

Dear Piratis,
People will have to have rocks in their heads to deny the Greek heritage of the majority in Cyprus...But you have to remember that there were other people and other civilisations which lived on Cyprus going back to some 10,000 years. So not any one nation and civilisation can lay claim to be the True Cypriots. That they own Cyprus exclusively.

Bir, the same degree of influence by other civilizations happened in Greece itself. In fact I doubt there is a territory with a long history in the whole world that was influenced just by one civilization. When I am saying that Cyprus is Hellenic I do not mean that it was not affected by other civilizations. That would be impossible. I mean that the Greek civilization is the predominant in Cyprus in both population numbers and history. If one makes the claim that Cyprus is not Hellenic, then based on the exact same reasons he should say that Greece is not Hellenic either, that Turkey is not Turkic etc.

Cyprus being Hellenic does not mean that Cyprus is owned exclusively by Greek Cypriots. Cyprus is owned by all Cypriots, just like Turkey should be owned not just by the Turks but also by the Kurdish, Greek, Armenian and the other minorities there.

I understand perfectly the demand and the struggle for Enosis given the historical content. And you are right to say in this day and age people should have majority rule with minority rights...But things are not black and white. And majority rule is not always democratic or just or compassionate. The "tyranny" of the majorities in lots of places on earth has been amply demonstrated over centuries...Do you really believe that had Enosis been achieved at the time,the Turkish Cypriots would have enjoyed fully their human and minority rights??? I am sure I read you say the Turkish Cypriots had real cause for concern given the historical circumstances...You know well how nationalism (of a patriotic,fascist and unthinking nature) was used to divide and rule our people by the British.And you know how the two communities themselves (the Church on one side and TMT on the other) used the same nationalism poison to bring us where we are today...So insisting on putting Cyprus's "Greekness" forward at every opportunity is not helping things at all. In fact it is giving those who do not want reunification reason to celebrate

I understand what you say Bir. But you should understand the difference between "true historical facts" and "compromises made to achieve what is best for most Cypriots"

This thread was about the historic aspect of this story and claimed that Greek Cypriots are not Greek. So I gave my answer based on historical facts that show that Greek Cypriots are as Greek as any other Greek.

Saying the truth about our history is even more important because people like VP and Zan should be reminded that accepting that Cyprus will not be part of a Greek state is already a compromise from our rights. Saying the true historical facts is also important because some people in here are trying to present our just and noble struggle for liberation as something "evil", and trying to use it today as an excuse for their crimes.

Faking our history would not help things, and it would make it easier for the partitionists to pass their propaganda.

So now that the historical aspect of this story is settled, I will again repeat what I said many times: That I do not want union with Greece and that a truly independent and democratic Cyprus is what can serve the interests of more Cypriots better.

Also a comment about democracy: Democracy might not be perfect but it is the best system available. If there is no democracy then there will be something worst, not something better. And when I talk about democracy I am not talking just about majority rule, but also about minority rights, human rights and all the other things that make democracy the best possible system ever invented.
http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/w ... hatdm2.htm

If as you say,the majority of GCs would choose real independence today,the time to prove it is now...There are very simple and symbolic gestures which can be taken to calm the fears of the minority in a future fully democratic Cyprus based on majority rule. Using a Cypriot national anthem is one. Restricting the use of Greek flags is another. And most importantly for me,inviting the Turkish Cypriots to return to their rightful place under the 1960 agreements and Constitution is yet another.

Bir, I agree with what you say about the anthem and the flags. The thing is that Cyprus today only has Greece as a close ally, and alienating them at this stage might not be for the interests of Cyprus. That said I would 200% agree with you that the solution of the Cyprus Problem should include amendments to the constitution for a new Cypriot national anthem and also that the only flags in public buildings should be the ones of Cyprus and EU.
About inviting the TCs to return to their rightful place under the 1960 agreements this is something we have done already. It is just rejected by the Turkish side, and this is why the Cyprus Problem continues. If TCs where willing to accept that then there would be no need for negotiations to find something different.

But it happens now,or Cyprus will never be reunited. Partition in one form or another will be the final solution,agreed or otherwise. The TC part of the Cyprus nation would be wiped out and replaced by Turks from the mainland. And you will indeed have to wait for the "balance of power to change" to reunite Cyprus by force...Risking losing all of Cyprus in another bloody and torturous conflict...Can't Cypriots be allowed to live their ethnic heritage in their hearts?? Can't they call themselves simply Cypriots and still be proud of their heritages???? Why do we have to wear our 'Greekness" or "Turkishness" on our sleeves??? Especially knowing how much pain and misery they caused our tiny homeland????

Bir, I agree with what you said but I will add: Can't every Cypriot be free to identify himself as he wishes, while at the same time respect every other Cypriot for whatever he chooses to be?

One advertisement once said: "All different, All equal".

If the solution is to remove our "Greekness" and "Turkishness", then we should also remove our "Christianness" and "Muslimness", we should all talk the same language (e.g. English), all believe in the same ideology, and in general remove everything that differentiates us.

Well, even if it was possible to remove all the differences (and in reality it is not possible), then the result would be some fake Cypriots, because who Cypriots really are has everything to do with their history, including their "Greekness" and "Turkishness".

Yes, we should be Cypriots first and above all, and we ARE (at least the majority of us). And our Cypriotness should definetely be emphasized more. But our differences should not become excuses for conflict, because those that want conflict and division will always find some difference (ethnicity, language, religion, ideology etc) to exploit in order to promote their aim.

The solution is equality of all Cypriots, not because we are all the same, but because we all respect and accept the differences.

[BC Numismatics]

Piratis,have you accepted that there has never been either a 'Greek Cyprus' or a 'Turkish Cyprus'? There is only one Cyprus.

Both Enosis & Taksim are as braindead as the Megali Idea.

Aidan.

[Viewpoint]

Dear Piratis,
People will have to have rocks in their heads to deny the Greek heritage of the majority in Cyprus...But you have to remember that there were other people and other civilisations which lived on Cyprus going back to some 10,000 years. So not any one nation and civilisation can lay claim to be the True Cypriots. That they own Cyprus exclusively.

Bir, the same degree of influence by other civilizations happened in Greece itself. In fact I doubt there is a territory with a long history in the whole world that was influenced just by one civilization. When I am saying that Cyprus is Hellenic I do not mean that it was not affected by other civilizations. That would be impossible. I mean that the Greek civilization is the predominant in Cyprus in both population numbers and history. If one makes the claim that Cyprus is not Hellenic, then based on the exact same reasons he should say that Greece is not Hellenic either, that Turkey is not Turkic etc.

Cyprus being Hellenic does not mean that Cyprus is owned exclusively by Greek Cypriots. Cyprus is owned by all Cypriots, just like Turkey should be owned not just by the Turks but also by the Kurdish, Greek, Armenian and the other minorities there.

I understand perfectly the demand and the struggle for Enosis given the historical content. And you are right to say in this day and age people should have majority rule with minority rights...But things are not black and white. And majority rule is not always democratic or just or compassionate. The "tyranny" of the majorities in lots of places on earth has been amply demonstrated over centuries...Do you really believe that had Enosis been achieved at the time,the Turkish Cypriots would have enjoyed fully their human and minority rights??? I am sure I read you say the Turkish Cypriots had real cause for concern given the historical circumstances...You know well how nationalism (of a patriotic,fascist and unthinking nature) was used to divide and rule our people by the British.And you know how the two communities themselves (the Church on one side and TMT on the other) used the same nationalism poison to bring us where we are today...So insisting on putting Cyprus's "Greekness" forward at every opportunity is not helping things at all. In fact it is giving those who do not want reunification reason to celebrate

I understand what you say Bir. But you should understand the difference between "true historical facts" and "compromises made to achieve what is best for most Cypriots"

This thread was about the historic aspect of this story and claimed that Greek Cypriots are not Greek. So I gave my answer based on historical facts that show that Greek Cypriots are as Greek as any other Greek.

Saying the truth about our history is even more important because people like VP and Zan should be reminded that accepting that Cyprus will not be part of a Greek state is already a compromise from our rights. Saying the true historical facts is also important because some people in here are trying to present our just and noble struggle for liberation as something "evil", and trying to use it today as an excuse for their crimes.

Faking our history would not help things, and it would make it easier for the partitionists to pass their propaganda.

So now that the historical aspect of this story is settled, I will again repeat what I said many times: That I do not want union with Greece and that a truly independent and democratic Cyprus is what can serve the interests of more Cypriots better.

Also a comment about democracy: Democracy might not be perfect but it is the best system available. If there is no democracy then there will be something worst, not something better. And when I talk about democracy I am not talking just about majority rule, but also about minority rights, human rights and all the other things that make democracy the best possible system ever invented.
http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/w ... hatdm2.htm

If as you say,the majority of GCs would choose real independence today,the time to prove it is now...There are very simple and symbolic gestures which can be taken to calm the fears of the minority in a future fully democratic Cyprus based on majority rule. Using a Cypriot national anthem is one. Restricting the use of Greek flags is another. And most importantly for me,inviting the Turkish Cypriots to return to their rightful place under the 1960 agreements and Constitution is yet another.

Bir, I agree with what you say about the anthem and the flags. The thing is that Cyprus today only has Greece as a close ally, and alienating them at this stage might not be for the interests of Cyprus. That said I would 200% agree with you that the solution of the Cyprus Problem should include amendments to the constitution for a new Cypriot national anthem and also that the only flags in public buildings should be the ones of Cyprus and EU.
About inviting the TCs to return to their rightful place under the 1960 agreements this is something we have done already. It is just rejected by the Turkish side, and this is why the Cyprus Problem continues. If TCs where willing to accept that then there would be no need for negotiations to find something different.

But it happens now,or Cyprus will never be reunited. Partition in one form or another will be the final solution,agreed or otherwise. The TC part of the Cyprus nation would be wiped out and replaced by Turks from the mainland. And you will indeed have to wait for the "balance of power to change" to reunite Cyprus by force...Risking losing all of Cyprus in another bloody and torturous conflict...Can't Cypriots be allowed to live their ethnic heritage in their hearts?? Can't they call themselves simply Cypriots and still be proud of their heritages???? Why do we have to wear our 'Greekness" or "Turkishness" on our sleeves??? Especially knowing how much pain and misery they caused our tiny homeland????

Bir, I agree with what you said but I will add: Can't every Cypriot be free to identify himself as he wishes, while at the same time respect every other Cypriot for whatever he chooses to be?

One advertisement once said: "All different, All equal".

If the solution is to remove our "Greekness" and "Turkishness", then we should also remove our "Christianness" and "Muslimness", we should all talk the same language (e.g. English), all believe in the same ideology, and in general remove everything that differentiates us.

Well, even if it was possible to remove all the differences (and in reality it is not possible), then the result would be some fake Cypriots, because who Cypriots really are has everything to do with their history, including their "Greekness" and "Turkishness".

Yes, we should be Cypriots first and above all, and we ARE (at least the majority of us). And our Cypriotness should definetely be emphasized more. But our differences should not become excuses for conflict, because those that want conflict and division will always find some difference (ethnicity, language, religion, ideology etc) to exploit in order to promote their aim.

The solution is equality of all Cypriots, not because we are all the same, but because we all respect and accept the differences.

All very good Piratis but your "democratic" rights would have taken us in a direction we see as death an end to TCs, now you are over this dream you want to make us all Cypriots where you know your number will ensure that the democracy and human rights you promote will be administered by GCs, this smells of danger for us unless we can be certain that we have a say and a right to say in sensitive issues we will not jump into any agreements, we have to clearly see that we will have a guaranteed say in our future. Is this to much to ask?

[BirKibrisli]

Bir, well done finally i can read a post from a TC without smartass remarks and sarcasm and prejudice.

i have a question iwant you to elaborast for me, in your post you said this:

"time to prove it is now...There are very simple and symbolic gestures which can be taken to calm the fears of the minority in a future fully democratic Cyprus "

What fears do you have after not being threatened or intimidated for the last 35 years, with 40,000 troops on the island. You still dont feel safe.
You might as well say all the other minorities dont feel safe either then.
If anyone has been intimidated since then its us.

Cheers.

Thanks, Marz....My dream is a united Cyprus run as a democratic country by Cypriots for Cypriots (of all backgrounds)...I was talking about a time when there would be no foreign soldiers on Cyprus soil,anywhere...The present minority in Cyprus would need a lot of convincing that GCs are Cypriots foremost,and not Greeks in disguise ,before they can agree to the withdrawal of the Turkish troops...They feel safe now with 40,000 troops protecting them. And I would perfectly understand if the majority GCs feel threatened now by the presence of such an overwhelming military force...My point is we need to build trust,a lot of trust,before we can all feel safe at night. And we need to start somewhere. The symbolic obstacles may well not be so easy to remove...But where to start???

[miltiades]

Bir, well done finally i can read a post from a TC without smartass remarks and sarcasm and prejudice.

i have a question iwant you to elaborast for me, in your post you said this:

"time to prove it is now...There are very simple and symbolic gestures which can be taken to calm the fears of the minority in a future fully democratic Cyprus "

What fears do you have after not being threatened or intimidated for the last 35 years, with 40,000 troops on the island. You still dont feel safe.
You might as well say all the other minorities dont feel safe either then.
If anyone has been intimidated since then its us.

Cheers.

Thanks, Marz....My dream is a united Cyprus run as a democratic country by Cypriots for Cypriots (of all backgrounds)...I was talking about a time when there would be no foreign soldiers on Cyprus soil,anywhere...The present minority in Cyprus would need a lot of convincing that GCs are Cypriots foremost,and not Greeks in disguise ,before they can agree to the withdrawal of the Turkish troops...They feel safe now with 40,000 troops protecting them. And I would perfectly understand if the majority GCs feel threatened now by the presence of such an overwhelming military force...My point is we need to build trust,a lot of trust,before we can all feel safe at night. And we need to start somewhere. The symbolic obstacles may well not be so easy to remove...But where to start???

I endorse completely Bir's comments. The government of the ROC MUST DO WHAT IT TELLS THE WORLD.
That Cyprus is an independent nation and that all Cypriots are equal under the law. It is preposterous that the Greek national anthem is seen by the state as the one representing Cyprus. It is two faced hypocrisy , on one hand we are telling the world that we are one nation and do not recognise the occupied part of Cyprus as a separate unit , on the other we carry on raising foreign flags and singing foreign anthems.It is time they acted as independent . Bir is entitled to his Cyprus just as I'm to mine , but an independent Cyprus just as the UN and Europe define Cyprus.

[BirKibrisli]

Piratis,

As you can see from VP's response above,the root of the problem is lack of trust...Whether you and I like it or not,the majority of TCs think exactly like VP on this matter. They are conditioned that way,as you will see if you follow my other thread "Cyprus problem in 150 questions...."

"Without the Turkish soldiers we are breakfast and lunch and dinner for the GCs..." is a mantra repeated ad infinitum for the past 50 years...

All I am saying is,if we want reunification on any basis resembling democracy and majority rule,we need to play down our ethnic heritage.
Not just in words but in deeds as well...As far as I am concerned saying "Cyprus is a Greek island" is stating the obvious. Since my last visit to Greece and the Greek islands,when people ask me how I felt get very surprised when I say "I felt perfectly at home...I was born and lived for 17 years on a Greek island,after all..."

But to the average TC it is like a red rug to a bull.
I am not suggesting we discard our Greekness or Turkishness,but to give them less importance in our day to day life in Cyprus,till they lose their historical threatening aspects.To take away the weapons of arrogant and fanatical nationalism which comes with those two notions of identity.
After my last visit to Cyprus I have no doubt that we are all a bit of the "other" anyway. Especially those of us born before 1974...The ultimate answer for me is for everyone to embrace both nationalities,learn both languages,both religions,and become much more richer as Cypriots and as human beings.

I have to disagree with you on one point. I dont believe this or any other President of the ROC ever invited the TCs to return to the original agreement,original Constitution. In fact I remember very well reading that both Papadopoulos and Hristofias has said it is impossible to return to 1960...I stand to be corrected on this...