Cyprus-Forum.com

[miltiades]

Isn't it sad that the British managed to become Americans in 500 years,but we could not become Cypriots in 10,000 years???

Isn't it sad that the British managed to become Australians in just over 200 years,but we are still Greeks and Turks,after 3500 and 500 years???

Isn't it sad that people who live in Isreal are Israelis, in Egypt Egyptians,
in Kazakistan Kazaks,in Greece Greeks,in Turkey Turks,but people who live in Cyprus insist on identifying themselves as leftovers of two other nations????

Isn't it sad that we are probably the only nation on earth who keep denying our own unique national identity????

Isn't it just too bloody sad???????

Congratulations Bir, best post in a long long while. Don't you think the GCs are the biggest offenders of this crime? Just watch a football game or any event that would draw the mass crowds and see the number of Greek and Cypriot flags.

TCs are by no means innocent but the GCs are definitely the more guilty party.

Hello,MR...Good to hear from you. I think it is very sad that some people insist on seeing Cyprus as "a Greek island"...I give up,mate...

To the best of my understanding, when Greek Cypriots refer to themselves as Greeks, the majority of them basically identify themselves with the broader and rather historical Greek or Hellenic cultural identity, and not so much with Greece as a political and legal “nation-state” entity! We feel that our (Greek) Cypriot cultural identity is just one such component of this broader historical Greek cultural identity, and definitely not something separate or outside of it! What it definitely does not mean or imply is that we are willing to tolerate or have ever allowed any internal involvement, or follow directives from any mainland Greek governments, more so when our own interests are in conflict! This is something that has been proved in numerous occasions over the last decades, not to say that Greece –at least since 1974, has shown any interest in getting involved in our internal affairs, or has ever attempted to “shepherd” us internationally! Instead, and as a matter of fact, there were many cases to the opposite direction, especially after 1974! With the exception of the 1959 London-Zurich agreements and the 1974 coup -in which violent means by a non-democratic junta government were attempted and utilized in order to impose “Greece’s” will on us, there is hardly any other example to be mentioned against the above!

In view of the above, I believe TCs should not feel so threatened by the fact that Greek Cypriots emphasize the Greek part of their identity, because the vast majority of GCs are not willing to sacrifice or put in a second tier or fate their political independence, in the name of Greece as a separate nation-state! There are many countries nowadays that are composed by multiple cultural identities which are all expressed in the everyday life of these countries, yet, these countries do exist and function as entities without major problems! Australia and the US are such prime examples, especially the later! Great Britain is another one such example, with English, Welsh, Irish and Scots forming one nation state, yet they maintain their separate cultural and ethnic identities!

Going back to the example of Australia, I would like to remind Birkibrisli that they (Australians) still maintain the queen of England as the head of their nation-state, and they even have the British flag as an inlaid of the Aus flag! At least in our case, allegiance with Greece is more a private thing, and is not institutionalized in any way or form, unlike Australia. Furthermore, I am sure if England and France reach the final of the world cup; the vast majority of Australians of Anglo-Saxon origin will seat in front of their TV sets and will support France to win the cup, many of them with French flags as well! Have I got it right?

Hello,dear Kifeas...I have no problem with most of what you are saying.
The trouble is when someone says "Cyprus is a Greek island" that is very exclusive. It excludes all the TCs,Armenians,Maronites,the British and what have you...It makes us feel like strangers in our own country,not welcomed but barely tolerated. And it invites the inevitable retort "No,Cyprus is,at least partly,Turkish..." And "We don't want to live on a Greek island,we want our own Turkish part in Cyprus..." I am sure you see where I am getting at...I have been saying from the beginning that we must put our Cypriotness before our ethnic origins if we are to reunite our beloved country and become one nation, one people...Saying "
Cyprus is a Greek island" makes mockery of the sentiments of those who think like I do...

ps.You will NEVER hear an Australian say "Australia is a British island"...
And the days of the Queen of England as Ausralian head of state is coming to an end in the near future,I am sure...

Dear Bir, I understand what you are saying! I personally do not agree with the use of such a slogan, as I find it non-useful and purely counterproductive! However, to the best of my knowledge and understanding, the proportion of GCs making use of the slogan “Cyprus is Greek,” but more importantly the proportion of those seriously subscribing to its literal meaning -as it may sound to you and the rest of the TCs; is fairly small! More so when it comes to political parties and their official positions! The majority of those making use of this slogan, use it for its figurative meaning, i.e. that Cyprus’s cultural and historical heritage is associated more with the Greek and Christian cultural world and civilization, than with any of the other ones that have existed or exist in the region!

I do not think TCs should seriously worry for the fact that such a slogan is occasionally being heard from the mouth of some, mainly rightwing youth groups! What one should examine is what are the official political positions and aims of the major and significant political parties influencing the vast majority of the GC public (including even those out of which such slogan heralding youth groups affiliate with;) than with what some empty head youngsters will shout, especially in a pre-election period!

Born out by the Greek flags all over the island and the Greek national anthem and Greek only representation by a government that says it represents all Cypriots.....Boy these "FEW" have a loud voice in the "RoC".....

Excellent post Bir and a very concise and informative response from Kifeas. The descriptive "usage " of the word Greek , is , as Kifeas puts it of " figurative " meaning . Those of us that see Cyprus , in the same manner that Maltese and people see their nation , we refer to it as Cyprus .I dont call Cyprus a Greek island and neither does anyone that I know does. None however would repudiate the distinct culture of Cyprus shared by the overwhelming majority of Cypriots. Bir is quite correct in highlighting the point that the other Cypriot inhabitants on this island would find the term "Greek Island " rather exclusive to them selves and frankly so would I . No denies the influence and the heritage one stretching back 500 years and the other 3000 . Cyprus can succeed as an independent island and prosper only as such. Not Greek , Not Turkish , Not North Not South.

[Viewpoint]

Cyprus is as Hellenic as any other Hellenic territory and island.

If Cypriots want to be part of the Greek state or have their own independent state this should be a decision taken democratically by the Cypriots themselves, not something forced by foreigners.

The American people choose to be independent from the the UK. To be more precise, the majority of the American people choose, because as we all know there was a minority (loyalists) who didn't agree. Similarly many islands and territories in general choose to be part of a bigger state. There is nothing wrong with that either. Otherwise every island and every city should have been independent.

The problem in Cyprus is that foreigners forced on Cypriots their will and they did not allow Cypriots to take their own democratic choices for their own island.

Not everybody can agree. In fact this is impossible. Still decisions should be taken. The way decisions should be taken in the 21st century is by democratic means, and democracy means majority rule, human and minority rights. Unfortunately those foreigners have forced on Cypriots their will as if we are still living in the middle ages where decisions are taken by force instead of democratic means.

That said, the majority of Cypriots today would definitely choose a real independence over any other arrangement. However many Cypriots see that small Cyprus can not be allowed to have a full real independence with a real democracy. This is why some of them would prefer if Cyprus was part of Greece, instead of under the control of the UK and Turkey.

Personally I am 100% in favor of making a compromise to this right of ours in order to sutisfy the minority of TCs and exclude the possibility of union with Greece. However those TCs should get over their hate for everything Greek and accept that this island has a long Hellenic history and stop expecting from us to write off 3500 years of history just to sutisfy their hate for everything Greek. If they hate everything Greek then Cyprus is the wrong island for them and they shouldn't have come here in the first place.

We as individuals had no choice what our forfathers did in the past, we arrived on the scene indigenous to this island so the lame excuse go settle elsewhere is neither here nor there. We TCs do not everything Greek, we respect your history, religion and right to live on this island in peace. Respecting all these does not give you the right to "democratically" sell us out to the Greeks, we have shown that we will fight this everytime and faced with the same end each community woudl do exactly the same unless they are a willing party which now I am sure you have realized we are not.

The dilema you GCs face today is accepting we are equal partners, 2 equal communities, this was reflected in the referendum when both sides had to say yes, if we had of said no like you did then things woudl not have moved forward. So this means we are equals we have just as much wiehgt as the GC community.

Now when it comes to a solution, they key is sharing of political power as 2 equal communites locatd in 2 areas north and south, are you prepared to move forward on the 2 fundamental points Piratis?

[repulsewarrior]

I am glad you have put some thought in resolution, and I thank-you for your reply.

Allow me to explain further:

in my Cyprus the Republic (our State and the dedender of our Individual Rights) will have a bicameral legislature with each citizen having three votes: one, to elect an independant candidate as their representative in a Lower House voting by consensus, having a Speaker, and seats at all Government Commitees. and The Upper House, ruled by its President who is the leader of a Party which has won a majority of seats in this chamber equally divided, where each citizen voting from two slates (with their remaining two votes) to choose their "Greek" representative and their "Turkish" representative for their riding, from the candidates the Parties offer (by necessity, if you will,) "Turkish" as well as "Greek". (Under this model note, it is entirely possible to have a Turkish Cypriot president, and his/her Greek Cypriot vice-president.).

If our Constitution is amended (that of 1960), the Communal chamber and the Municipal Laws can be revoked. In its place, Cyprus now being, as I described Bizonal, will have as two Jurisdictions, two National Assemblies which are mutually exclusive, recognising the equality of its citizens each having an equal vote, each Assembly respecting its ethnic minority(ies) within their territory, as each seeks to sustain itself.

Thus our State is free from cultural bias, rather, our diversity is used as a countervailing power, to protect our Individualism, while in our country's Internal Affairs, as persons we can reciprocate our inclusiveness, having a sense of responsibility toward minorities, in two societies (both societies), having their distinctiveness, as well as their own representation.

nothing is easier,

take a map of Cyprus as it is divided today. scatter across it a bagful of jewels (these are the enclaves), allow for those in the north to be administered by the Grecophone Assembly, and allow those in the south to be "Turkish". Allow everyone to identify themselves within this framework, first as this island's dwellers, as Cypriots, not monoclonal but having a nationality as well, and allow them to live without a military state

consider with an open mind how this framework allows us association, expression and movement.

You will agree I hope that this will redeem us all from the errors (pride) and the ignorance (bloodshead) of the past, with or without the criminals being charged.
It allows the displaced, for many, the return of their Patrimony (as communities), and for many a chance to return to their homes (as a minority, but having an equal vote).
It allows for those who will be displaced (many Settlers and others) as settlement, homes, and a wider array of choices which are clear.
It allows for each society within itself greater diversity, and a vitality which will serve in it making choices from a wider array of competing forces.
It allows for citizens to be closer to their taxdollars, although there are a greater number of government representatives.

...beside the 'fait accompli' as it exists today, viewpoint, and beside the opinion of your confrere Piratis, again, i ask you, would you be willing to consider a change such as the one that I have proposed?

[Viewpoint]

I am glad you have put some thought in resolution, and I thank-you for your reply.

Allow me to explain further:

in my Cyprus the Republic (our State and the dedender of our Individual Rights) will have a bicameral legislature with each citizen having three votes: one, to elect an independant candidate as their representative in a Lower House voting by consensus, having a Speaker, and seats at all Government Commitees. and The Upper House, ruled by its President who is the leader of a Party which has won a majority of seats in this chamber equally divided, where each citizen voting from two slates (with their remaining two votes) to choose their "Greek" representative and their "Turkish" representative for their riding, from the candidates the Parties offer (by necessity, if you will,) "Turkish" as well as "Greek". (Under this model note, it is entirely possible to have a Turkish Cypriot president, and his/her Greek Cypriot vice-president.).

If our Constitution is amended (that of 1960), the Communal chamber and the Municipal Laws can be revoked. In its place, Cyprus now being, as I described Bizonal, will have as two Jurisdictions, two National Assemblies which are mutually exclusive, recognising the equality of its citizens each having an equal vote, each Assembly respecting its ethnic minority(ies) within their territory, as each seeks to sustain itself.

Thus our State is free from cultural bias, rather, our diversity is used as a countervailing power, to protect our Individualism, while in our country's Internal Affairs, as persons we can reciprocate our inclusiveness, having a sense of responsibility toward minorities, in two societies (both societies), having their distinctiveness, as well as their own representation.

nothing is easier,

take a map of Cyprus as it is divided today. scatter across it a bagful of jewels (these are the enclaves), allow for those in the north to be administered by the Grecophone Assembly, and allow those in the south to be "Turkish". Allow everyone to identify themselves within this framework, first as this island's dwellers, as Cypriots, not monoclonal but having a nationality as well, and allow them to live without a military state

consider with an open mind how this framework allows us association, expression and movement.

You will agree I hope that this will redeem us all from the errors (pride) and the ignorance (bloodshead) of the past, with or without the criminals being charged.
It allows the displaced, for many, the return of their Patrimony (as communities), and for many a chance to return to their homes (as a minority, but having an equal vote).
It allows for those who will be displaced (many Settlers and others) as settlement, homes, and a wider array of choices which are clear.
It allows for each society within itself greater diversity, and a vitality which will serve in it making choices from a wider array of competing forces.
It allows for citizens to be closer to their taxdollars, although there are a greater number of government representatives.

...beside the 'fait accompli' as it exists today, viewpoint, and beside the opinion of your confrere Piratis, again, i ask you, would you be willing to consider a change such as the one that I have proposed?

No I would not for vote for it, I am against cantons and your plan appears to complicated for the layman to understand.

[zan]

Cyprus is as Hellenic as any other Hellenic territory and island.

If Cypriots want to be part of the Greek state or have their own independent state this should be a decision taken democratically by the Cypriots themselves, not something forced by foreigners.

The American people choose to be independent from the the UK. To be more precise, the majority of the American people choose, because as we all know there was a minority (loyalists) who didn't agree. Similarly many islands and territories in general choose to be part of a bigger state. There is nothing wrong with that either. Otherwise every island and every city should have been independent.

The problem in Cyprus is that foreigners forced on Cypriots their will and they did not allow Cypriots to take their own democratic choices for their own island.

Not everybody can agree. In fact this is impossible. Still decisions should be taken. The way decisions should be taken in the 21st century is by democratic means, and democracy means majority rule, human and minority rights. Unfortunately those foreigners have forced on Cypriots their will as if we are still living in the middle ages where decisions are taken by force instead of democratic means.

That said, the majority of Cypriots today would definitely choose a real independence over any other arrangement. However many Cypriots see that small Cyprus can not be allowed to have a full real independence with a real democracy. This is why some of them would prefer if Cyprus was part of Greece, instead of under the control of the UK and Turkey.

Personally I am 100% in favor of making a compromise to this right of ours in order to sutisfy the minority of TCs and exclude the possibility of union with Greece. However those TCs should get over their hate for everything Greek and accept that this island has a long Hellenic history and stop expecting from us to write off 3500 years of history just to sutisfy their hate for everything Greek. If they hate everything Greek then Cyprus is the wrong island for them and they shouldn't have come here in the first place.

We as individuals had no choice what our forfathers did in the past, we arrived on the scene indigenous to this island so the lame excuse go settle elsewhere is neither here nor there. We TCs do not everything Greek, we respect your history, religion and right to live on this island in peace. Respecting all these does not give you the right to "democratically" sell us out to the Greeks, we have shown that we will fight this everytime and faced with the same end each community woudl do exactly the same unless they are a willing party which now I am sure you have realized we are not.

The dilema you GCs face today is accepting we are equal partners, 2 equal communities, this was reflected in the referendum when both sides had to say yes, if we had of said no like you did then things woudl not have moved forward. So this means we are equals we have just as much wiehgt as the GC community.

Now when it comes to a solution, they key is sharing of political power as 2 equal communites locatd in 2 areas north and south, are you prepared to move forward on the 2 fundamental points Piratis?

Excellent post VP...

[BirKibrisli]

Cyprus is as Hellenic as any other Hellenic territory and island.

If Cypriots want to be part of the Greek state or have their own independent state this should be a decision taken democratically by the Cypriots themselves, not something forced by foreigners.

The American people choose to be independent from the the UK. To be more precise, the majority of the American people choose, because as we all know there was a minority (loyalists) who didn't agree. Similarly many islands and territories in general choose to be part of a bigger state. There is nothing wrong with that either. Otherwise every island and every city should have been independent.

The problem in Cyprus is that foreigners forced on Cypriots their will and they did not allow Cypriots to take their own democratic choices for their own island.

Not everybody can agree. In fact this is impossible. Still decisions should be taken. The way decisions should be taken in the 21st century is by democratic means, and democracy means majority rule, human and minority rights. Unfortunately those foreigners have forced on Cypriots their will as if we are still living in the middle ages where decisions are taken by force instead of democratic means.

That said, the majority of Cypriots today would definitely choose a real independence over any other arrangement. However many Cypriots see that small Cyprus can not be allowed to have a full real independence with a real democracy. This is why some of them would prefer if Cyprus was part of Greece, instead of under the control of the UK and Turkey.

Personally I am 100% in favor of making a compromise to this right of ours in order to sutisfy the minority of TCs and exclude the possibility of union with Greece. However those TCs should get over their hate for everything Greek and accept that this island has a long Hellenic history and stop expecting from us to write off 3500 years of history just to sutisfy their hate for everything Greek. If they hate everything Greek then Cyprus is the wrong island for them and they shouldn't have come here in the first place.

Dear Piratis,
People will have to have rocks in their heads to deny the Greek heritage of the majority in Cyprus...But you have to remember that there were other people and other civilisations which lived on Cyprus going back to some 10,000 years. So not any one nation and civilisation can lay claim to be the True Cypriots. That they own Cyprus exclusively. You know Cyprus history better than I do,I am sure. (Though I am trying to catch up by reading the very objective account given by Mr Sabahattin Ismail in another thread of mine )...And there were other civilisations which arrived after the Greek influence begun...We have to deal with realities here. I understand perfectly the demand and the struggle for Enosis given the historical content. And you are right to say in this day and age people should have majority rule with minority rights...But things are not black and white. And majority rule is not always democratic or just or compassionate. The "tyranny" of the majorities in lots of places on earth has been amply demonstrated over centuries...Do you really believe that had Enosis been achieved at the time,the Turkish Cypriots would have enjoyed fully their human and minority rights??? I am sure I read you say the Turkish Cypriots had real cause for concern given the historical circumstances...You know well how nationalism (of a patriotic,fascist and unthinking nature) was used to divide and rule our people by the British.And you know how the two communities themselves (the Church on one side and TMT on the other) used the same nationalism poison to bring us where we are today...So insisting on putting Cyprus's "Greekness" forward at every opportunity is not helping things at all. In fact it is giving those who do not want reunification reason to celebrate...If as you say,the majority of GCs would choose real independence today,the time to prove it is now...There are very simple and symbolic gestures which can be taken to calm the fears of the minority in a future fully democratic Cyprus based on majority rule. Using a Cypriot national anthem is one. Restricting the use of Greek flags is another. And most importantly for me,inviting the Turkish Cypriots to return to their rightful place under the 1960 agreements and Constitution is yet another. This last one is far from "simple" I know. But it happens now,or Cyprus will never be reunited. Partition in one form or another will be the final solution,agreed or otherwise. The TC part of the Cyprus nation would be wiped out and replaced by Turks from the mainland. And you will indeed have to wait for the "balance of power to change" to reunite Cyprus by force...Risking losing all of Cyprus in another bloody and torturous conflict...Can't Cypriots be allowed to live their ethnic heritage in their hearts?? Can't they call themselves simply Cypriots and still be proud of their heritages???? Why do we have to wear our 'Greekness" or "Turkishness" on our sleeves??? Especially knowing how much pain and misery they caused our tiny homeland????

[BC Numismatics]

Birkisbrisli,Enosis & Taksim = Braindead!

Cyprus.

[Viewpoint]

Cyprus is as Hellenic as any other Hellenic territory and island.

If Cypriots want to be part of the Greek state or have their own independent state this should be a decision taken democratically by the Cypriots themselves, not something forced by foreigners.

The American people choose to be independent from the the UK. To be more precise, the majority of the American people choose, because as we all know there was a minority (loyalists) who didn't agree. Similarly many islands and territories in general choose to be part of a bigger state. There is nothing wrong with that either. Otherwise every island and every city should have been independent.

The problem in Cyprus is that foreigners forced on Cypriots their will and they did not allow Cypriots to take their own democratic choices for their own island.

Not everybody can agree. In fact this is impossible. Still decisions should be taken. The way decisions should be taken in the 21st century is by democratic means, and democracy means majority rule, human and minority rights. Unfortunately those foreigners have forced on Cypriots their will as if we are still living in the middle ages where decisions are taken by force instead of democratic means.

That said, the majority of Cypriots today would definitely choose a real independence over any other arrangement. However many Cypriots see that small Cyprus can not be allowed to have a full real independence with a real democracy. This is why some of them would prefer if Cyprus was part of Greece, instead of under the control of the UK and Turkey.

Personally I am 100% in favor of making a compromise to this right of ours in order to sutisfy the minority of TCs and exclude the possibility of union with Greece. However those TCs should get over their hate for everything Greek and accept that this island has a long Hellenic history and stop expecting from us to write off 3500 years of history just to sutisfy their hate for everything Greek. If they hate everything Greek then Cyprus is the wrong island for them and they shouldn't have come here in the first place.

Dear Piratis,
People will have to have rocks in their heads to deny the Greek heritage of the majority in Cyprus...But you have to remember that there were other people and other civilisations which lived on Cyprus going back to some 10,000 years. So not any one nation and civilisation can lay claim to be the True Cypriots. That they own Cyprus exclusively. You know Cyprus history better than I do,I am sure. (Though I am trying to catch up by reading the very objective account given by Mr Sabahattin Ismail in another thread of mine )...And there were other civilisations which arrived after the Greek influence begun...We have to deal with realities here. I understand perfectly the demand and the struggle for Enosis given the historical content. And you are right to say in this day and age people should have majority rule with minority rights...But things are not black and white. And majority rule is not always democratic or just or compassionate. The "tyranny" of the majorities in lots of places on earth has been amply demonstrated over centuries...Do you really believe that had Enosis been achieved at the time,the Turkish Cypriots would have enjoyed fully their human and minority rights??? I am sure I read you say the Turkish Cypriots had real cause for concern given the historical circumstances...You know well how nationalism (of a patriotic,fascist and unthinking nature) was used to divide and rule our people by the British.And you know how the two communities themselves (the Church on one side and TMT on the other) used the same nationalism poison to bring us where we are today...So insisting on putting Cyprus's "Greekness" forward at every opportunity is not helping things at all. In fact it is giving those who do not want reunification reason to celebrate...If as you say,the majority of GCs would choose real independence today,the time to prove it is now...There are very simple and symbolic gestures which can be taken to calm the fears of the minority in a future fully democratic Cyprus based on majority rule. Using a Cypriot national anthem is one. Restricting the use of Greek flags is another. And most importantly for me,inviting the Turkish Cypriots to return to their rightful place under the 1960 agreements and Constitution is yet another. This last one is far from "simple" I know. But it happens now,or Cyprus will never be reunited. Partition in one form or another will be the final solution,agreed or otherwise. The TC part of the Cyprus nation would be wiped out and replaced by Turks from the mainland. And you will indeed have to wait for the "balance of power to change" to reunite Cyprus by force...Risking losing all of Cyprus in another bloody and torturous conflict...Can't Cypriots be allowed to live their ethnic heritage in their hearts?? Can't they call themselves simply Cypriots and still be proud of their heritages???? Why do we have to wear our 'Greekness" or "Turkishness" on our sleeves??? Especially knowing how much pain and misery they caused our tiny homeland????

This is the post of a TC, can every read the difference between this and Kikapus whos post does not contain 1% of the balance displayed by Bir, well done although we do not agree on many things you at least attempt to try and be balanced.

[repulsewarrior]

viewpoint, Dr.B deserves respect because he is a Human being. The fact that he is Turcophone has nothibg to do with it. A lesson you can learn from him is to place your own Nationalism somewhere below the compassion you can offer others as a person. Ignoring someone because they are "Greek" is just plain ignorant. Generalising that all "Greeks" are the same is no better. When a "Greek" treats you with the same intolerance you should reflect on how much harm is produced by the blame game that always follows such behaviour.

You will not have your partition, and the "Greeks" (who are not at all unlike yourself) will not annihlate your "race". I suggest you, like myself search for something better.

[repulsewarrior]

did you vote for the Annan Plan, viewpoint?

If yes, I am curious, did you vote "No"? ...that was a complicated plan, and since it was changed to appease the desires of Turkey a day before the vote, as a layman, and/or a person of integrity, wouldn't you find that unclear? But, since the changes were to appease your 'motherland' did you vote "Yes", without hesitation, because what serves Turkey serves your interests as well? Did you vote for this plan on its quality, or on its clarity, did you vote with your conscience, did you vote to serve the interests of Cyprus and all Cypriots, or did you vote because it serves the interests of Turcophones who wish to be Turkish, who place Cyprus below a fielty to Turkey, who place their Turkishness above a love of this island?