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Olli says TC Ports are legal?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby zan » Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:45 pm

Piratis wrote:
CopperLine wrote:
Piratis
An illegality committed in Cyprus by a company or citizen of EU or most other countries can be very easily prosecuted and convicted even if he never sets his foot in the free areas of Cyprus.
Oh, if only it was so simple !!! I haven't got time to go through it here, but again you simply showing that you do not understand the hierarchy of laws and jurisdiction nor the relationship between municpal and international law. And to boot, you don't understand the politics of how and when legal cases are, or are not, pursued.


I understand it very well.

Hierarchy of laws would have something to if some EU or International law would be contrary to the Cyprus law. As you admitted Cyprus is the one who defines which are the legal ports of entry to this country and there is no higher (EU or international) law to overwrite this. So about what "hierarchy of laws" are you talking about?

Regarding jurisdiction, Cyprus is member of EU and has agreements with most other countries. So if a crime or illegality is committed in Cyprus by a citizen of another country, Cyprus is very able to bring that criminal to justice. If this was not the case then a criminal committing a crime on one country and then escaping to another would be safe.

About the political aspects of this story, if a company or a person commits a crime in Cyprus, and the country of this person/company denies to respect the agreements that it has with Cyprus, then be sure that Cyprus will retaliate with blocking agreements of this 3rd country with EU and with many other ways. EU countries will never protect fugitives that committed a crime in another EU country. If some other country does this, then the consequences will be way more than any gains this country will have from trade with the occupied areas.



Under which agreement.....You have no jurisdiction in the TRNC/KKTC because the original constitution does not exist...You cannot have your cake and eat it... :roll: :roll:
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Postby Piratis » Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:51 pm

Under which agreement.....You have no jurisdiction in the TRNC/KKTC because the original constitution does not exist...You cannot have your cake and eat it

If there was a "trnc" and we had no juristriction, then you wouldn't have a problem today, would you?

You cannot have your cake and eat it Zan. You illegally occupy our land and therefore you have consequences. End the occupation, allow legality to return, and then you can also trade freely from any port of Cyprus you want.
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Postby zan » Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:00 pm

Piratis wrote:
Under which agreement.....You have no jurisdiction in the TRNC/KKTC because the original constitution does not exist...You cannot have your cake and eat it

If there was a "trnc" and we had no juristriction, then you wouldn't have a problem today, would you?

You cannot have your cake and eat it Zan. You illegally occupy our land and therefore you have consequences. End the occupation, allow legality to return, and then you can also trade freely from any port of Cyprus you want.


Again...Under which agreement....What we are doing is occupying our land....The fact that some of it is in private ownership makes no difference to the end result......They will be free to move back as soon as an agreement is reached...Just like the "RoC" has offered us. That is the very terminology that the "RoC" used when my sisters neighbour asked for her property back...."When there is an agreement/solution".........
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Postby Piratis » Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:06 pm

You are not occupying your land. The Turkish troops are illegally occupying land that belongs to Republic of Cyprus.

Why don't you agree to return to legality? Everybody gets back what he owns. Why not?? You don't agree to this because you support illegalities and you are trying to gain on our loss by means of brute force. So you will continue to face the consequences of your illegal choices. Get used to it.
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Postby zan » Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:16 pm

Piratis wrote:You are not occupying your land. The Turkish troops are illegally occupying land that belongs to Republic of Cyprus.

Why don't you agree to return to legality? Everybody gets back what he owns. Why not?? You don't agree to this because you support illegalities and you are trying to gain on our loss by means of brute force. So you will continue to face the consequences of your illegal choices. Get used to it.


Under what agreement...Do you not understand the question????????
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Postby Piratis » Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:25 pm

zan wrote:
Piratis wrote:You are not occupying your land. The Turkish troops are illegally occupying land that belongs to Republic of Cyprus.

Why don't you agree to return to legality? Everybody gets back what he owns. Why not?? You don't agree to this because you support illegalities and you are trying to gain on our loss by means of brute force. So you will continue to face the consequences of your illegal choices. Get used to it.


Under what agreement...Do you not understand the question????????


Under the only agreement made for the establishment of Republic of Cyprus.
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Postby zan » Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:26 pm

Piratis wrote:
zan wrote:
Piratis wrote:You are not occupying your land. The Turkish troops are illegally occupying land that belongs to Republic of Cyprus.

Why don't you agree to return to legality? Everybody gets back what he owns. Why not?? You don't agree to this because you support illegalities and you are trying to gain on our loss by means of brute force. So you will continue to face the consequences of your illegal choices. Get used to it.


Under what agreement...Do you not understand the question????????


Under the only agreement made for the establishment of Republic of Cyprus.


Come on Piratis...Don't be shy...Say it...Which agreement?????
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Postby CopperLine » Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:22 pm

Let's take a different example to illustrate.

A ship 'Spirit of Piratis', registered in the Bahamas but owned by a Swiss company, regularly carries a cargo of urea (owned by a French company) from Basra (Iraq) to Malta. The 'Spirit of Piratis' is a single hulled vessel, and the urea is in crystalline form. Following a number of accidents involving single hulled vessels, the government of Malta passes a law which prohibits such vessels entering any port in Malta. The government of Iraq is not bothered about single hulled vessels using its ports. The government of Bahamas also does not allow single hulled vessels in its ports, but it is only interested in the registration market for single hulled vessels. Switzerland is landlocked (yes you heard it here first) and has no law at all on single hulled vessels. Each of those states is exercising its sovereign right to enact and implement municipal law, in this case about the lawful use of ports.

Following Malta's change of law, the 'Spirit of Piratis' continues to ply its trade in urea shipment from Basra but now wants to shift its destination to Cyprus. The government of Cyprus (RoC) allows single hulled vessels to use its ports. But the government of the TRNC prohibits the use of its ports to single hulled vessels.
Can the owners/operators of 'Spirit of Piratis' take action against RoC's prohibiting of use of Famagusta port using international law ? No. Because there isn't any international law dealing with this issue. Can the owners/operators of 'Spirit of Piratis' take action against prohibiting use of Famagusta port using Cyprus national law on ports ? Yes, through the RoC courts (the problem remains of course that the RoC cannot practically enforce the Cyprus court judgement in the TRNC).
Now reverse the example : RoC prohibits single hulled vessels and TRNC allows them use of Cyprus ports. Remember we're dealing with municipal laws about shipping safety (and not customary international law about recognition). So now the 'Spirit of Piratis' is able to ship between Basra and Famagusta. Can the RoC take action against the owners/operators of 'Spirit of Piratis' for using Famagusta port using international maritime law ? Still the answer is no because there isn't any international law dealing with this issue. Can the RoC take action against the owners/operators of 'Spirit of Piratis' for using Famagusta port using Cyprus national law on ports ? Yes, if the owner/operators are within the jurisdiction of RoC. But in the scenario I've just painted - fairly typical in the shipping world - none of the key parties are within RoC jurisdiction.

So the question is what else or what more can RoC do to enforce its own national laws beyond its own jurisdiction ? Again, remember that the 'Spirit of Piratis' has not violated the municipal port laws of Iraq, Malta, Bahamas, etc, just those of RoC. There's no case to be heard in any of these other jurisdictions. We've already established that there is no international law on this matter, so RoC can't go to an international maritime tribunal. So all that is left, as far as I can see, is for RoC to attempt to have a judgment of a Cypriot court be enforced in one or more of the jurisdictions of the major interested parties i.e, Bahamas, Switzerland, etc.

And here we jump to the importance of the Orams Cyprus property case. Can a judgement of a RoC court (relating to a breach of Cyprus municipal law by an action taking place within Cyprus) be enforced in another jurisdiction, in the Orams' case in England & Wales ? And the English court's answer ? No.

Now it might turn out that a French court would say 'yes', or that another English court in a different case might also say 'yes'. I suspect that both of these scenarios are unlikely, though not impossible. But the fact remains that (a) there is no international law or court which covers the use of ports and (b) the enforcement of municipal law in other national jurisdictions, EU notwithstanding, is extremely difficult to do.

Finally in relation to this, ask yourself this question : why are extradition laws still so important ? Because although still very difficult and complex it remains easier to bring an accused from outside your own jurisdiction to within your jurisdiction than it is to take your laws outside into another's jurisdiction.
Last edited by CopperLine on Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Get Real! » Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:23 pm

CopperLine wrote:Yes you did post the IMO and UNCLOS links before. They were mistaken then and they are mistaken now. They are irrelevant to the issue of the legality or otherwise of the use of Cyprus ports.

Right so the “THE UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA” formerly kept at…

http://www.oceanlaw.net/texts/losc.htm

...has nothing relevant to say on the matter? Have another look and hopefully this time you’ll understand it:

Article 17
RIGHT OF INNOCENT PASSAGE

Subject to this Convention, ships of all States, whether coastal or
land-locked, enjoy the right of innocent passage through the territorial sea.

Article 19

MEANING OF INNOCENT PASSAGE

1. Passage is innocent so long as it is not prejudicial to the peace, good
order or security of the coastal State. Such passage shall take place in
conformity with this Convention and with other rules of international law.

2. Passage of a foreign ship shall be considered to be prejudicial to the
peace, good order or security of the coastal State if in the territorial
sea it engages in any of the following activities:

(a) any threat or use of force against the sovereignty, territorial
integrity or political independence of the coastal State, or in any other
manner in violation of the principles of international law embodied in the
Charter of the United Nations;


(d) any act of propaganda aimed at affecting the defence or security of the coastal State;


When you write "there are international laws that determine what constitutes a “port” in accordance with international maritime laws" it is pure, unadulterated nonsense. You simply made that up.

Oh really? So you assume that any Tom, Dick, or Harry can nail a few planks of wood together to build a jetty and declare an international port with no international standards (read laws) to abide by? :lol:

Keep it coming CopperLine... you are most amusing! :)
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Postby CopperLine » Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:43 pm

Get Real

Yep, you posted something very similar from UNCLOS last time. Repeated\postings of a convention do not, however, make it any more relevant to the question of ports !

Three points :

1. UNCLOS has got nothing to do with who can and cannot use ports

2. You oh-so-confidently highlight in bold type the meaning of innocent passage, and yet there has not been a single example of a commercial ship using the ports of north Cyprus engaging in a 'threat or use of force against the sovereignty, etc etc etc'. Wrong piece of law, wrong application of law, wrong example - my god, if you were a student of law you'd get 0%

3. Even if you'd identified a pertinent instrument regarding the use of ports, you managed to quote articles in which the word 'port' - or any synonym such as harbour, haven, dock, etc - is entirely missing. The sections you proudly quote are about passage through territorial waters, not ports. The clue is in the title of articles 17 & 19 'right of innocent passage' and 'meaning of innocent passage'


Yours,
Tom, Dick and Harry
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