Cyprus-Forum.com

[utu]

Any solution for Cyprus is going to have to deal with the reality of the Turkish migrants brought in since 1974. The question is how.

A popular view among Greek Cypriots is to remove them all, as technically, the bringing in of settlers onto land intrernationally regarded as occupied is a violation of various international conventions.

However, there are certain categories that - in the interest of justice and a spirit of reconciliation - may need to be considered for being offered a form of amnesty and eventual 'legal RoCy citizenship'. I'm referring to (a) those Turkish settlers who are married to Turkish Cypriots, (b) children of Turkish Immigrants who were born on the island, and (c) those with special skills/qualifications that make their residence on the island a positive influence to the community and economy.

Comments?

[boomerang]

Any solution for Cyprus is going to have to deal with the reality of the Turkish migrants brought in since 1974. The question is how.

A popular view among Greek Cypriots is to remove them all, as technically, the bringing in of settlers onto land intrernationally regarded as occupied is a violation of various international conventions.

However, there are certain categories that - in the interest of justice and a spirit of reconciliation - may need to be considered for being offered a form of amnesty and eventual 'legal RoCy citizenship'. I'm referring to (a) those Turkish settlers who are married to Turkish Cypriots, (b) children of Turkish Immigrants who were born on the island, and (c) those with special skills/qualifications that make their residence on the island a positive influence to the community and economy.

Comments?

One solution is to allow some settlers to remain, to bolster the tc numbers to about 35% and then declare a strong federal solution or even a unitary state...

I can understand the fear if the tcs were 18% but with 35% that shouldn't be an issue...the fear of marginalization will not exist...

The settler relocation and compensation should be paid up by "turkey"...

end of story...

[zan]

The question of, should the whole islands population be put to test must also be considered if we are to go down that route.

In my view, we should live with the mess we have created and no more ethnic, economic or political cleansing should occur. As for who should pay........All guilty parties.

[observer]

There is a European Directive which says that all legal immigrants who have been in a country for 5 years should have full residency rights. It seems a practical extension of that directive to say that Turkish immigrants who have been legally resident under the de facto goverment rules for 5 years should be declared legally resident if there is ever an agreed settlement.

[CopperLine]

Cyprus and Turkey are party to the European Convention of Human Rights. Even if the Cyprus problem were settled to the satisfaction of all state parties - principal amongst which RoC and Turkey - IF that final settlement entailed the forcible removal of people from the new Cyprus then it would be a prima facie breach of the ECHR.

An example : A final settlement requires that Turkish 'settlers', however they are defined, be returned to Turkey. A married couple of Rep of Turkey birth and original citizenship moved to TRNC/'TRNC'. They lived in TRNC for twenty two years before the final settlement and twenty years before the settlement their son is born and eighteen years before the final settlement their daughter is born, and twelve years before the final settlement their second daughter is born. The settlement demands the expulsion or 'forcible repatriation' of this family.

There you have it a fundamental breach of the human rights of every member of that family. Multiply this by - let's use the figure that keeps being bandied around - 50,000 'illegal settlers'. Even if the RoC , and Turkey and the new Cyprus wanted this there is nothing those states could do to prevent 50,000 people pursuing claims through the ECHR. So, far from there being a final settlement, the running sore of Cyprus would simply continue indefinitely.

There is a simple but controversial way out of this : simply say 'no one is illegal' On the day of settlement, whoever is resident in Cyprus is a free and equal citizen.

[boomerang]

Cyprus and Turkey are party to the European Convention of Human Rights. Even if the Cyprus problem were settled to the satisfaction of all state parties - principal amongst which RoC and Turkey - IF that final settlement entailed the forcible removal of people from the new Cyprus then it would be a prima facie breach of the ECHR.

An example : A final settlement requires that Turkish 'settlers', however they are defined, be returned to Turkey. A married couple of Rep of Turkey birth and original citizenship moved to TRNC/'TRNC'. They lived in TRNC for twenty two years before the final settlement and twenty years before the settlement their son is born and eighteen years before the final settlement their daughter is born, and twelve years before the final settlement their second daughter is born. The settlement demands the expulsion or 'forcible repatriation' of this family.

There you have it a fundamental breach of the human rights of every member of that family. Multiply this by - let's use the figure that keeps being bandied around - 50,000 'illegal settlers'. Even if the RoC , and Turkey and the new Cyprus wanted this there is nothing those states could do to prevent 50,000 people pursuing claims through the ECHR. So, far from there being a final settlement, the running sore of Cyprus would simply continue indefinitely.

There is a simple but controversial way out of this : simply say 'no one is illegal' On the day of settlement, whoever is resident in Cyprus is a free and equal citizen.

First of all to clarify this argument what are the requirements in obtaining citizenship...

Then we can have a debate...quoting 22 years and kids ain't gonna cut it...sure some people will stay...mixed marriages, long term, but to give a free ride to the newbies on the day of settlement is ludicrous...

might as well get 1 million settlers and and give them all citizenship. on the day of reckoning...

Again copperline you never cease to amaze me...you always pick on the extreme...try and meet half way so we can atleast expand on it...

[CopperLine]

Boomerang
First just a piece of information : there is a campaign, which I fully support, in many countries across the world which is called 'No one is illegal.' This is the campaign in the UK http://www.noii.org.uk/ This iss the campaign in Australia http://www.antimedia.net/nooneisillegal/links.htm See also http://noborder.org/


The story of Turkish family, though fictitious, is by no means extreme or unusual. But of course what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Substitute the words 'Turkish' by the words 'Turkish Cypriot' 'Greek Cypriot' 'Cypriot British', 'Cypriot Australian' or 'British' or 'Australian.' Suppose you Boomerang - I'm assuming you were Cypriot-born - return to Cyprus. And suppose you have children born in Australia, but not arriving in Cyprus until, let's say, five years before a final settlement (as described before). Do we say, 'well Boomers, sorry mate but while you can stay your children have got to leave' ? Or maybe we should say, anyone who has not lived permanently in Cyprus since 1974 should not be able to return and settle ? Or maybe we say anyone who has settled in Cyprus - regardless of which other country they were born in - for less than five years is to be deported following a settlement ? On any of these scenarios I'd be jumping up and down defending your human rights.

I've given my call on this. Your call now ?

[boomerang]

Boomerang
First just a piece of information : there is a campaign, which I fully support, in many countries across the world which is called 'No one is illegal.' This is the campaign in the UK http://www.noii.org.uk/ This iss the campaign in Australia http://www.antimedia.net/nooneisillegal/links.htm See also http://noborder.org/


The story of Turkish family, though fictitious, is by no means extreme or unusual. But of course what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Substitute the words 'Turkish' by the words 'Turkish Cypriot' 'Greek Cypriot' 'Cypriot British', 'Cypriot Australian' or 'British' or 'Australian.' Suppose you Boomerang - I'm assuming you were Cypriot-born - return to Cyprus. And suppose you have children born in Australia, but not arriving in Cyprus until, let's say, five years before a final settlement (as described before). Do we say, 'well Boomers, sorry mate but while you can stay your children have got to leave' ? Or maybe we should say, anyone who has not lived permanently in Cyprus since 1974 should not be able to return and settle ? Or maybe we say anyone who has settled in Cyprus - regardless of which other country they were born in - for less than five years is to be deported following a settlement ? On any of these scenarios I'd be jumping up and down defending your human rights.

I've given my call on this. Your call now ?

Copperline...are you for real ofcource I agree with you on this one...why wouldn't I when said

Then we can have a debate...quoting 22 years and kids ain't gonna cut it...sure some people will stay...mixed marriages, long term, but to give a free ride to the newbies on the day of settlement is ludicrous...

I would have thought that if one parent is a native it would have been obvious...this is the reason I didn't mention it...But obviously I was wrong...I need to cater for all types of thinking and for this I am well and trully sorry...
you live and learn I quess...

Copperline lets take this a bit further...

Let us agree that one day we will unification...

The major fears/red lines of the tcs are security and governance...

What we had before was 18%-82% ratio...which today it does not count as already agreed that some settlers will be staying...Well this will bolster the ratio to about 30%...In this case we now have really 30% tcs, 5% other minorities and finally 65% gcs...

I subscribe to the thought that most people will stay put where they are...so what we will have is 30% in the Nth and 70% in the Sth majorities...with some minor adjustments...

In this instance the tcs will be the majority in the nth and gcs in the sth...For the tcs to be a minority in the nth it will require 31% of the gcs to move to the nth and 34% to remain in the sth...do you see this happening?

This will eliminate the tcs fear of being overrun and their self governance...under a democratic strong federal system or even a unitary state...

So my solution envisages some settlers staying...but you need to draw the line, otherwise as kikapu says we also want to preserve the tcs from going extinct...

over to you


PS...even if the nth population is 25% true federation or unitary state will still work...

[CopperLine]

Boomerang
Thanks for your explanation that

I would have thought that if one parent is a native it would have been obvious.

But the trouble is that things that may appear obvious/natural are never quite so. For example, it might seem obvious to you that is one parent is native then the children get to stay/get citizenship, but that 'obvious' principle doesn't even apply in UK citizenship law, for example.

On your settlement proposal, I can't answer personally because as I've said before on this Forum I think any solution based on territorial-communal division is doomed to repeat the traumas of the past. A non-communal federal Cyprus, yes. A bi/multi/communal federal Cyprus, no way. Since I don't support the premiss of your argument there's no point in me adding to the speculation about what such a solution would look like.

[Piratis]

The Turkish Settlers in Cyprus are not "immigrants". They are people transfered in Cyprus by the occupying force, against the Geneva convention, in order to change the demographics of Cyprus. Their presence here is illegal.

The Turks who have ethnically cleansed the majority of the native Cypriot population from the lands they inhabited for 1000s of years should not shed fake tears because the Settlers will have to be repatriated to Turkey.

If the Turks believe that some Cypriots can be compensated with money in order to abandon their homeland and live somewhere else, then whats their problem if this happens with foreign Turks who have no strong connection to this island?

Turkey is the one who made the crime and violated the Geneva convention, and those people are its own citizens. Therefore Turkey is responsible to compensate them and ensure their well being. Every Settler should be entitled to take Turkey to the European Court of Human Rights if the compensation given to them by Turkey was not large enough to satisfy them.

(a) those Turkish settlers who are married to Turkish Cypriots

Any foreigner who is married to a Cypriot can gain the Cypriot citizenship. So no problem with that.

(b) children of Turkish Immigrants who were born on the island

There are no Turkish immigrants but Turkish Settlers. Are you suggesting the the children can stay in Cyprus while their parents not? If we go along this way almost all Settlers would stay. So this can not happen.

(c) those with special skills/qualifications that make their residence on the island a positive influence to the community and economy

This is again the same with every other foreigner. If a non-EU foreigner can find employment in Cyprus and the company can prove that they can not find somebody with similar skills from Cyprus or EU, then they can employ him. But these people will just be residents in Cyprus, they will not have the citizenship, unless they pass from all the legal procedures like every other foreigner.