Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

There is no way they can kick out a state from the EU. They can freeze relations and participation in certain processes of the EU as happened with Austria when the fascist fellow got into government. Once the state of affairs changes relations normalise.

The EU is not a social club. It is a complex bundle of processes that bind nations together. Once in you are always in. In any case, Cyprus has not so far created any waves in the EU. It is other states that cause major problems in most areas including Turkish accession.

Thank you Nikitas...At least you answered the question I actually asked....

[repulsewarrior]

hi stav, welcome to this crowd. good luck, and stay calm.

as for the topic, Settlers if given a choice between homes or houses will either choose to remain as citizens or return because they wish to be Turkish. If enclaves in the south and the north were established a great deal will be solved, regarding the displaced and those who will be displaced. recognising our commitment to basic human rights, while expressing this ideal in a manner which allows for a Bicommunal State, where people can maintain their identities as Individuals, and as persons, with two National Assemblies as well, will perhaps offer Mankind a sense which can be emulated in areas, such as the Middle East where there is little else but cooperation and respect that is needed for peace to exist. In my mind, three governments in Jerusalem is possible, as it is in Nicosia.

[CopperLine]

Zan,
I don't know the chapter and verse for expulsion from the EU though doubtless there is some such provision. I'd agree with Nikitas though when he uses the word 'entangle' : once an member the myriad of threads which bind the state into the institution are extraordinary. Thus extraction from this Gordian know, whether voluntary or through expulsion, is really difficult to imagine.

It is worth noting that the UN has provisions for expulsion but even the grossest of violations by member states has not actually resulted in expulsion, usually the most severe 'penalty' is suspension (eg apartheid South Africa).

Personally I think that once in the EU a state, big or small, is very unlikely to be expelled. I think the point is that the EU is not like a club with membership fees and reciprocal benefits. The EU has the effect, for example, of bringing together tax regimes, capital markets, education systems, employment rights, and so on. The EU should, in my view, be understood as a long process of integration rather than as a simple membership organisation.

[zan]

Zan,
I don't know the chapter and verse for expulsion from the EU though doubtless there is some such provision. I'd agree with Nikitas though when he uses the word 'entangle' : once an member the myriad of threads which bind the state into the institution are extraordinary. Thus extraction from this Gordian know, whether voluntary or through expulsion, is really difficult to imagine.

It is worth noting that the UN has provisions for expulsion but even the grossest of violations by member states has not actually resulted in expulsion, usually the most severe 'penalty' is suspension (eg apartheid South Africa).

Personally I think that once in the EU a state, big or small, is very unlikely to be expelled. I think the point is that the EU is not like a club with membership fees and reciprocal benefits. The EU has the effect, for example, of bringing together tax regimes, capital markets, education systems, employment rights, and so on. The EU should, in my view, be understood as a long process of integration rather than as a simple membership organisation.

Thanks again Copperline.....So there are punishments for unruly and obstructive countries that think they can dictate to them for personal reasons that has no major effect on the whole...

[CopperLine]

Zan
If I get your meaning, then if the majority of EU states wanted to accept Turkey into the EU but against the wishes of RoC, let's say, then ways and means would be found to oblige Cyprus to concede. Generally speaking the EU as an institution prefers to conduct business 'in the corridors' and not to allow formal and public decisions to determine events. Correspondingly, if the EU did decide on its own (irrespective of the UN) a Cyprus solution which RoC was against, then I suspect that ways and means would be found to make RoC an offer it couldn't refuse. Once in the 'cosa nostra', always in the cosa nostra, and cosa nostra rules apply.

[zan]

Zan
If I get your meaning, then if the majority of EU states wanted to accept Turkey into the EU but against the wishes of RoC, let's say, then ways and means would be found to oblige Cyprus to concede. Generally speaking the EU as an institution prefers to conduct business 'in the corridors' and not to allow formal and public decisions to determine events. Correspondingly, if the EU did decide on its own (irrespective of the UN) a Cyprus solution which RoC was against, then I suspect that ways and means would be found to make RoC an offer it couldn't refuse. Once in the 'cosa nostra', always in the cosa nostra, and cosa nostra rules apply.

A sharp point that Tpap is only just beginning to feel.....I know we go around in circles here but the EU and the UN have done all they can with this and there has to be an end to it..Whilst Tpap has been maneuvering to dupe them both he has not seen what is coming...He was warned that this will not be solved in the law courts and there is more to this than just law but he has not had the political will or the knowhow to do anything else. warnings can seem like threats sometimes if you let your agenda dictate every move.

[Nikitas]

The irony is that the only two EU nations that want Turkey to become a full member are Greece and Cyprus. The rest are the ones who have substantial objections, including the UK who supports the accession but has reservations about the movement of people from Turkey. The members tha can be influenced by the USA, like Poland and other eastern European states have their objections and they will voice them in time (subsidies to Turkish farmers etc).

The Greek and Cypriot position is not one of kindness, their interests are best served by Turkey becoming an EU member. Funny how things work out in real time!

[zan]

The irony is that the only two EU nations that want Turkey to become a full member are Greece and Cyprus. The rest are the ones who have substantial objections, including the UK who supports the accession but has reservations about the movement of people from Turkey. The members tha can be influenced by the USA, like Poland and other eastern European states have their objections and they will voice them in time (subsidies to Turkish farmers etc).

The Greek and Cypriot position is not one of kindness, their interests are best served by Turkey becoming an EU member. Funny how things work out in real time!

I think you might find that those in real power in the UK want Turkey in....Everything that is being done in the UK with Turkey and the TRNC shows that, but you are right about the rest.

[CopperLine]

Zan
The irony is that I think that I've been typecast as one obsessing with law on this forum, but the truth is that it is the politics which always overrides the law or fundamentally shapes it. So when RoC nationalists bang on about TRNC being illegal and that no one recognises it and that should be the end of the story, this is only the trivial begin of the story. The Cyprus problem is not fundamentally a legal problem, resolvable in courts. It is a political problem in which RoCistas are really poor players and TRNCistas are even worse players. Virtually nobody outside Cyprus gives a damn about the division of the island, nor are they preoccupied by whether TRNC is recognised or whatever. What they see is some petulent and increasingly absurd dispute over which RoCista and TRNCista leading politicians simply add more material for the stereotypes. Both sides insist that the law is on their side. Meanwhile most of us just get on with our lives as best we can talking with all Cypriots and non-Cypriots alike.

What narks me on this forum is not that people don't agree - that's the human condition, it's fine by me that we disagree - it is that there are a number of people who are simply exclusionary and driven by an unalloyed hatred. Their only purpose and only mode of engagement is to exclude, reject, purge, purify, refuse. And that for me defines the political battleground. Noone is illegal.

[zan]

Zan
The irony is that I think that I've been typecast as one obsessing with law on this forum, but the truth is that it is the politics which always overrides the law or fundamentally shapes it. So when RoC nationalists bang on about TRNC being illegal and that no one recognises it and that should be the end of the story, this is only the trivial begin of the story. The Cyprus problem is not fundamentally a legal problem, resolvable in courts. It is a political problem in which RoCistas are really poor players and TRNCistas are even worse players. Virtually nobody outside Cyprus gives a damn about the division of the island, nor are they preoccupied by whether TRNC is recognised or whatever. What they see is some petulent and increasingly absurd dispute over which RoCista and TRNCista leading politicians simply add more material for the stereotypes. Both sides insist that the law is on their side. Meanwhile most of us just get on with our lives as best we can talking with all Cypriots and non-Cypriots alike.

What narks me on this forum is not that people don't agree - that's the human condition, it's fine by me that we disagree - it is that there are a number of people who are simply exclusionary and driven by an unalloyed hatred. Their only purpose and only mode of engagement is to exclude, reject, purge, purify, refuse. And that for me defines the political battleground. Noone is illegal.

Don't worry about the typecasting mate because the ones that think they know and are doing the typecasting are just making fools of themselves. The fact that so much effort has been wasted in trying to prove you wrong and that the one that actually was the so called expert in this field, Kifeas, is nowhere to be seen tells us a lot. The fact also hat the thin they can sway public opinion by writing rubbish on this forum is testament that they have lost the plot.