Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

VP said:

"Gcs always claim they lost 6000 during 1974 but can never back this up with independent evidence, it appears to be a figure plucked out of the sky."

The second phase of Attila, which started on August 14 1974, according to Bulent Ecevit cost the lives of 4500 Greek Cypriots. Do you need a better source than that?

So if the second phase cost 4500 lives how much do you think the first phase, the actual invasion and landing, cost in terms of GC lives? When Turkish jets dive bombed the mental hospital in Nicosia how many dead do you think that act of heroism cost? When naval ships were bombarding the coast in Kyrenia and planes attacked Famagusta as we saw on the news there were people on the ground receiving those bombs.

What do you think VP, that it was possible to bomb and shell civilians and not cause casualties? Have you invented some kind of soft bombs in Turkey that the rest of the world does not know about? The degree of violence used by the Turkish armed forces was in excess of what was necessary. It was a deliberate overkill to terrorise the people. The pilos got so carried away with bombing they even sank one Turkish ship and badly damaged another, you must know about this. So if they were willing to kill their own imagine what they did to the "enemy".

[purdey]

This is war,it is not nice is it.Civilians always get killed,fact of life.There is no such thing as a soft approach in war.History tells us all the time,go in hard kill or be killed.Tragic though it is,it will always happen.
The Turkish armed forces are no different from any other armed forces,if they are ordered to kill they will,it is there job and it is what they are trained for.

[Nikitas]

Purdey,

In 1967 the Israelis knocked out three armies with barely any civilian casualties. So civiliasn do not always get killed.

The Turks call their 1974 invasion a "peace operation". In peace operations the army engages only military targets and those only to the extent necessary to neutralise the threat. They do not bomb hospitals and residential areas. Modern weapons are too accurate to claim mistakes. So the conclusion is that the action was deliberate and part of an overall policy.

[purdey]

It was a desert war,there were no civilians there.I recently went to the old battlefields,it was wasteland.Why do you think the Israelies gave it back to Egypt.
In 1974 they did not use lazer guided weopons they were free fall bombs with a timed detonator.Of course I cannot rule out deliberate action but this is war.
From what I remember the Turkish troops were being shot in there hundreds getting off landing craft at Kyrenia,it only takes one radio message to say what is happening and all hell breaks loose.
I am no sypathiser to any wrong doing but in war the beast in man is released.

[zan]

Zan should read some of those accounts given to Sevgul Uludag.

It is nonsense to suggest that those missing are due to EOKA and Makarios supporters fighting from July 15 to July 20 1974.

The dead from those days are known and accounted for.

The people not accounted for are the prisoners taken by the Turkish army after August 14. Some were handed over to TC "fighters" and killed (so said Denktash), and some were kept in holding areas west of Famagusta. In one of those camps more than 300 GC prisoners were massacred in one day. One of the soldiers responsible tried to tell the truth about the event and he was "disappeared" by MIT. The story is well documented and corroborated by the media.

The rest were people killed here and there for no reason. One such case is an old lady near Kythrea. She kept complaining of a twisted ankle and wanted a doctor. A Turkish soldier motioned to her to follow him to go to the doctor. Fifty paces down the road he shot and killed her on August 16 1974. This from an eyewitness account.

So Zan, do us all a favor and save ridiculing yourself. Do not try to find justification for these killings, there is none.

Look at the dates again and stop mixing up what happened after 74.......... I did not say that the whole of he numbers where due to EOKA but the figures tell us what happened. Still trying to blur he edges and claiming victim status

[Viewpoint]

VP said:

"Gcs always claim they lost 6000 during 1974 but can never back this up with independent evidence, it appears to be a figure plucked out of the sky."

The second phase of Attila, which started on August 14 1974, according to Bulent Ecevit cost the lives of 4500 Greek Cypriots. Do you need a better source than that?

So if the second phase cost 4500 lives how much do you think the first phase, the actual invasion and landing, cost in terms of GC lives? When Turkish jets dive bombed the mental hospital in Nicosia how many dead do you think that act of heroism cost? When naval ships were bombarding the coast in Kyrenia and planes attacked Famagusta as we saw on the news there were people on the ground receiving those bombs.

What do you think VP, that it was possible to bomb and shell civilians and not cause casualties? Have you invented some kind of soft bombs in Turkey that the rest of the world does not know about? The degree of violence used by the Turkish armed forces was in excess of what was necessary. It was a deliberate overkill to terrorise the people. The pilos got so carried away with bombing they even sank one Turkish ship and badly damaged another, you must know about this. So if they were willing to kill their own imagine what they did to the "enemy".

You Gcs don't believe anything Turks say why should you believe them now, you appear to do so when it suits. Do you have any official figures from an independent source to back up the GC claim?

Plus the Turkish army faced great difficulty landing at Kyrenia and this was not dıe the bad weather it was GC artillery from the mountains, the hidden bunkers are still in place if you wish to visit these were in concrete and built of the 11 years of preparation for such and attack, why did you GCs welcome the Turkish army as your saviours and not as the enemy, the greeting they received prompted and fuelled the ferocity with which they had to respond in order to intervene and resolve 11 years of hell for TCs.

[Nikitas]

Purdey,

In 1967 the Israelis captured Jersualem and not a single civilian died in the fighting. Are you implying that Jerusalem was desert?

After August 14 1974 the Turkish army advancing into Karpasia had no military opposition. There was no fighting. But it still employed tactics to terrorise the population. Read the Sunday Times Insight teams report of September 1974 and you will get the picture.

Zan and VP,

You are as usual trying to justify the unjustifiable. When a disciplined and organized army slaughters civilians then you have to ask who gave the orders, who did not stop it, and why. I am prepared to say that the TMT fanatics who slaughtered GCs in Afania were undixciplined rabble who ran out of control.

The soldiers who killed civilians days after the military fight was over were what? In Yalousa they were caught red handed killing people by the UN and the foreign press. The Turkish high command said it would discipline the soldiers involved. Nothing happened.

No one is painting anyone as a victim here. Facts are facts. Why are you two going to such great pains to justify what the Turkish army did anyway? It happened days after they "saved" you. It was totally uncalled for slaughter of civilians which has nothing to do with TCs in general. A few TCs, according to Denktash, were involved but most of it was done by soldiers with the complicity of their officers.

[Nikitas]

The behavior of th Turkish army in the occupied areas is illustragted by the murder of the folk painter Kassialos. He was an old man in his 80s. He remained behind after the invasion and many weeks after the invasion a bunch of Turkish soldiers turned up at his house asking for money.

According to his wife this was a regular thing, soldiers often stopped by and extorted money from him. When he ran out of money they beat him to death. He was 89.

The TRNC regime said it was going to investigate the murder. We are still waiting to hear the results of their investigations.

If it happened to Kassialos it obviously happened to others. Done by soldiers who supposedly are the "best in NATO". Best at what? Extortion and murder or something else?

[purdey]

Nikitas,I think you get my drift.Not one bomb was dropped on Jerusalem.At the time they called it minimum collateral damage to property.
This argument about armies is pointless,all armies have a rogue element it's the nature of human kind.Yes the Turkish Army wanted to scare the population,it worked the invasion was a great success,over quickly with little loses for the Turkish Army.All armies in the world practice this approach,you are nieve if you think otherwise.

[Nikitas]

Purdey you are obviously not aware of how armies are run and organized. Nothing happens in a proper army without complicity of officers. If an officer does not want this men to loot rape and kill he has ways to do it. I am referring to events that happened after the cease fire not the invasion fighting itself.

You are implying that this rogue element exists in all armies. This is not borne out by the behavior of the British soldiers in Iraq,r Afghanista or the Falklands. The officers were there to make sure their men would behave like soldiers and not like maniacs. Those that do are court martialled.

The US army has investigated and court marialled several soldiers for crimes in Iraq. So obvously not all armies are the same. According to some, mostly in this forum, the Turkish army has a long tradition of honor and is supposed to be the best in NATO, better than the Americans and the British. So let us see them prove it.