Cyprus-Forum.com

[halil]

Below artivle published at Cyprus Diolgue news paper. I wanted share it with forum members. writer is GC.

on december23, phileleftheros published a full page report under the headline ''SETTLERS İN NEGOTİATİON'' and decisions for the Cyprus issue ''which was a lamenent about the rapid increase of the population of occupied north .the report was written on the strength on information that Turkey had asked Talat administration to grant Turkish Cypriot citizenship to another 53000 Turkish Citizen.
The report said that , according to information given by the TC authorities , there were , at present 33780 Turkish citizens in the north who had been given citicenship and another 77731 to whom it had been given.This made a grand total of 111601 , based on the census of april 30 , 2006. The reporter noted that according to figures given by Turkey ministry of labour there were 146662 Turkish citizens in Cyprus.Phileleftheros also wrote in 2003 the seasonal Turkish workers in the north amounted to 6000 whereas now there were more than 70000.

It is strange to see that those sharing some responsibility for disastrous consequencies of President Papadopoulos rejectionist policies are today prepared to point them out.The super patriots of Phileleftheroes , like all those who fought to scupper the settlement in 2004 , are primarily responsible for fact that the number of settlers in north has tripled since 2004 , if we accept as correct the figures given by Turkish Cypriot authorities the settlers have quadrupled if the Turkish government's figures are correct the number given by our government 200 000 then the settlers in the north are five times more than they were three and half years ago.

If the Annan plan had been accepted , some 45000 Turkish settlers would have been allowed to stay in Cyprus. The plan stipualed that by 10 april.2004 a list of all their names should have been submitted to UN secretary general. The Turkish Cyprioy side submitted the list . Which 40 000 individual . In short , if the plan were accepted , the Turkish settlers in north would have been restricted to this number.

The Phileleftheros report failed to mention that one of the main arguments cited by people in support of acceptance of the plan was its rejection would have led to rapid increase in the number of settlers in north. They were the people with sound judgment and not Papadopoulos , who has the audacity of today accusing his rival candidate Ioannis Kasoulides of ''lacking judgment''

Things are even worse than the phileleftheros report made out. The 40000 settlers who were here in 2004 were primarily uneducated , impoverished peasonts from Turkish region of Anatolia.They lived off small state handouts and the tiny amounts of money they made from basic farming.Most of them would have been more than happy to have taken the financial incentive provideed by the Annan plan (no less than 10000 euru) and return to Turkey.

But the Turks who have settled in Cyprus since 2004 came from western Turkey.They are educated , professionally qualified and are making a home in the north. Some open shops and many are working in hotels and other service industries. You will see them if you visit any hotel in Kyrenia . I doubt these people would ever be persuaded to leave Cyprus.

Thes are the majestic results of Papadopoulos ''much - advirtised '' , ''assertive'' foreign policy.
In 2004 he opposed the Annan olan because , among other things, it did not provide for departure of all settlers.He did not agree to 40000 staying after a settlrment , but now he is happy to live with 200000 on our doorstep and he has the nerve repeating everday on radio and tv that he ''saved '' Cyprus in 2004. I advise him to take a stroll in Kyrenia , accompanied by the super-patriots of phileleftheros so they could see for themself how Papadopoulos supreme judgment saved Cyprus.

[zan]

Below artivle published at Cyprus Diolgue news paper. I wanted share it with forum members. writer is GC.

on december23, phileleftheros published a full page report under the headline ''SETTLERS İN NEGOTİATİON'' and decisions for the Cyprus issue ''which was a lamenent about the rapid increase of the population of occupied north .the report was written on the strength on information that Turkey had asked Talat administration to grant Turkish Cypriot citizenship to another 53000 Turkish Citizen.
The report said that , according to information given by the TC authorities , there were , at present 33780 Turkish citizens in the north who had been given citicenship and another 77731 to whom it had been given.This made a grand total of 111601 , based on the census of april 30 , 2006. The reporter noted that according to figures given by Turkey ministry of labour there were 146662 Turkish citizens in Cyprus.Phileleftheros also wrote in 2003 the seasonal Turkish workers in the north amounted to 6000 whereas now there were more than 70000.

It is strange to see that those sharing some responsibility for disastrous consequencies of President Papadopoulos rejectionist policies are today prepared to point them out.The super patriots of Phileleftheroes , like all those who fought to scupper the settlement in 2004 , are primarily responsible for fact that the number of settlers in north has tripled since 2004 , if we accept as correct the figures given by Turkish Cypriot authorities the settlers have quadrupled if the Turkish government's figures are correct the number given by our government 200 000 then the settlers in the north are five times more than they were three and half years ago.

If the Annan plan had been accepted , some 45000 Turkish settlers would have been allowed to stay in Cyprus. The plan stipualed that by 10 april.2004 a list of all their names should have been submitted to UN secretary general. The Turkish Cyprioy side submitted the list . Which 40 000 individual . In short , if the plan were accepted , the Turkish settlers in north would have been restricted to this number.

The Phileleftheros report failed to mention that one of the main arguments cited by people in support of acceptance of the plan was its rejection would have led to rapid increase in the number of settlers in north. They were the people with sound judgment and not Papadopoulos , who has the audacity of today accusing his rival candidate Ioannis Kasoulides of ''lacking judgment''

Things are even worse than the phileleftheros report made out. The 40000 settlers who were here in 2004 were primarily uneducated , impoverished peasonts from Turkish region of Anatolia.They lived off small state handouts and the tiny amounts of money they made from basic farming.Most of them would have been more than happy to have taken the financial incentive provideed by the Annan plan (no less than 10000 euru) and return to Turkey.

But the Turks who have settled in Cyprus since 2004 came from western Turkey.They are educated , professionally qualified and are making a home in the north. Some open shops and many are working in hotels and other service industries. You will see them if you visit any hotel in Kyrenia . I doubt these people would ever be persuaded to leave Cyprus.

Thes are the majestic results of Papadopoulos ''much - advirtised '' , ''assertive'' foreign policy.
In 2004 he opposed the Annan olan because , among other things, it did not provide for departure of all settlers.He did not agree to 40000 staying after a settlrment , but now he is happy to live with 200000 on our doorstep and he has the nerve repeating everday on radio and tv that he ''saved '' Cyprus in 2004. I advise him to take a stroll in Kyrenia , accompanied by the super-patriots of phileleftheros so they could see for themself how Papadopoulos supreme judgment saved Cyprus.

And may I ask him to keep walking when he gets to the sea....and keep walking...and keep walking........

[Kikapu]

True Federation with True Democracy is what Europe is all about, and it is time we became part of it.

Firstly thank you for a more balanced approach without wise cracks which always help us see beyond having to be on the defensive.

You seem to think that GCs want a true federation in the fashion that you described above, they may pay lip service to this idea but over the past 4 years since the AP have you seen them put any new proposals forward? have you seen them take any positive steps towards reconciliation and union? You really have to try and look at it from this side of the fence, we have a strong relationship with Turkey who has supported us in every way possible, we have the TRNC which if you visited you would see is a functioning country in every sense of the word (albeit unrecognized) on the other hand we have no relationship with GCs south with whom we have a dark past and ample mistrust, to boot the only referendum was voted down by them which was another slap in the face for TCs and a clear indication that GCs are not interested in a solution that will not give them 100% of what they demand. Which would you choose? Your arguments about assimilation are very weak as you contradict yourself on the one hand you threaten and scaremonger when saying we will be swallowed up by Turkey yet in the same breath you turn around and say the same will not happen in a vengeance seeking GC majority. What are the differences?

You really have to come to terms with the fact that neither side has the vision or the desire to resolve the Cyprus issue, this is it and it will not change in our life times, so we have to make the best of it and try to live our lives the best way we can. 2008 may bring a flurry of activity but the end result will be the same status quo with a few little steps on the relaxation of the isolation of the north...we can argue till the cows come home but the chasm is to wide to bridge and will get wider over the coming years, it will take bold moves on both sides to get this train on track and seeing we do not have any fuel we are destined to stay as we are.

You can say I was right in 20/30 years time if we are still alive.

VP,

Let me apologize up front for not answering this post much earlier. There is life beyond the Forum, for all of us I hope.!!

You seem to think that GCs want a true federation in the fashion that you described above, they may pay lip service to this idea but over the past 4 years since the AP have you seen them put any new proposals forward?

I do not know what the GC leadership has in mind, but if Kifeas and Piratis are any indication as to what they would be happy with, who happens to be supporters of the present government in the RoC, they have often claimed to accept a True Federation USA style with True Democracy, therefore my guess is, they will accept a True Federation as I have recommended before. You may say the RoC is paying "lip service" and you may be correct, so why don't we put them to test and tell them, "OK, we accept a True Federation over the BBF" and see what they say, assuming of course, that the TC's are willing to fore go the idea of BBF, which the GC's do not even want to hear about it, let alone discuss it, because it all comes down to being a "Partition in disguise" in the beginning, that can be changed to a "full Partition" later on, if the desire is there from the TC's, because the conditions will be in place to be able to declare a "full Partition", since the North will be seen nothing more than a "TC State". These are the reasons as to why the GC's will not agree to this, and the Annan Plan Referendum results told us that, with 75% GC's saying OXI.

Your arguments about assimilation are very weak as you contradict yourself on the one hand you threaten and scaremonger when saying we will be swallowed up by Turkey yet in the same breath you turn around and say the same will not happen in a vengeance seeking GC majority. What are the differences?

400+ years of living with the GC's is all the proof I need to tell me, that living with the GC's in the future will not result us being "assimilated". How much more proof do you need than 400+ years.??. On the other hand, we have more Turkish Settlers in the "TRNC" than Indigenous TC's, along with Turkey pushing for more settlers to become "TC citizens" than we already have, as well us Turkey dictating to us from a distance what will our future should look like, depending on what she can get out of it, regarding the EU. So in short, we are being "assimilated" by Turkey by the TC's being "osmosis-ed" into the Turkish Society from within. I do not need to tell you how osmosis works, but lets make sure all the same. It is a process where less concentrated "substance" flows into more concentrated. In our case, the "substance" are the people. Since Cypriots, GC's and TC's are more or less are from the same "stock" for the last 400+ years, there can me no more changes that can occur that has not already happened, to have your feared "assimilation" to take effect. Perhaps more so now with people like T_C and Shah who are the outsiders from that Cypriot "stock", since they were born into something totally different, the "TRNC". We are however more likely to "assimilate" with the Turks more, because we have the same religion and language, and there are more of them us in the "TRNC", and many more in Turkey who may want to keep the Northern Cyprus as part of Turkey. It will be near impossible to escape "assimilation" of TC's by the Turks, only because, they are 700 times more than our population, the Indigenous TC's. Osmosis once again works when lower concentrated "substance" flows into more concentrated "substance". The TC's are the low concentrated "substance and Turkey the high concentrated "substance". At worse, the concentration difference between the TC's and the GC's is only 6:1 ratio, however, the TC and Turks is 700:1 ratio. You do the math and see which is more likely, even if you are not prepared to accept the 400+ years as being a strong indicator, that the GC-TC "assimilation" had not taken place in the past, other than becoming Cypriots.

You really have to come to terms with the fact that neither side has the vision or the desire to resolve the Cyprus issue, this is it and it will not change in our life times, so we have to make the best of it and try to live our lives the best way we can. 2008 may bring a flurry of activity but the end result will be the same status quo with a few little steps on the relaxation of the isolation of the north...we can argue till the cows come home but the chasm is to wide to bridge and will get wider over the coming years, it will take bold moves on both sides to get this train on track and seeing we do not have any fuel we are destined to stay as we are.

You can say I was right in 20/30 years time if we are still alive

I think people do want a settlement, but it has to be a fair deal to at least to the majority of Cypriots. I accept that not everyone is going to get what they hope for, but at the same time, no Cypriot should be ignored and everything humanly possible should be done to ensure that everyone has a voice in the final settlement. As Nikitas often reminds us, that Cyprus is a very small island and one can live in one part of the island, and at the same time drive to his fields to farm it, at another part of the island. The important thing is, that all Cypriots should not lose their ownerships of their property by force, but rather let them settle it amongst themselves, as the case is with every free market. There can be no settlement be made when one's will is forced on the other. This can only reignite problems down the road. I want to be treated with all my rights as I want others to be treated in the same way.



Note:
VP, you had another post that I wanted to answer, but forgot which one it was, so if you can remind me, I would appreciate it.

[zan]

Stop guessing and write that letter asked you to write to Tpap and then post the answer you get... [/i]

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

VP,

Let me apologize up front for not answering this post much earlier. There is life beyond the Forum, for all of us I hope.!!

I agree we all have our lives to live solution or not, the delay is no problem.

I do not know what the GC leadership has in mind, but if Kifeas and Piratis are any indication as to what they would be happy with, who happens to be supporters of the present government in the RoC, they have often claimed to accept a True Federation USA style with True Democracy, therefore my guess is, they will accept a True Federation as I have recommended before. You may say the RoC is paying "lip service" and you may be correct, so why don't we put them to test and tell them, "OK, we accept a True Federation over the BBF" and see what they say, assuming of course, that the TC's are willing to fore go the idea of BBF, which the GC's do not even want to hear about it, let alone discuss it, because it all comes down to being a "Partition in disguise" in the beginning, that can be changed to a "full Partition" later on, if the desire is there from the TC's, because the conditions will be in place to be able to declare a "full Partition", since the North will be seen nothing more than a "TC State". These are the reasons as to why the GC's will not agree to this, and the Annan Plan Referendum results told us that, with 75% GC's saying OXI.

Shoulnt you know more about what the GCs really want? they claim they want a BBF solution... yet you are on about a "true federation" could you tell us all the difference between a true federation and the BBF TCs said yes to.

400+ years of living with the GC's is all the proof I need to tell me, that living with the GC's in the future will not result us being "assimilated". How much more proof do you need than 400+ years.??. On the other hand, we have more Turkish Settlers in the "TRNC" than Indigenous TC's, along with Turkey pushing for more settlers to become "TC citizens" than we already have, as well us Turkey dictating to us from a distance what will our future should look like, depending on what she can get out of it, regarding the EU. So in short, we are being "assimilated" by Turkey by the TC's being "osmosis-ed" into the Turkish Society from within. I do not need to tell you how osmosis works, but lets make sure all the same. It is a process where less concentrated "substance" flows into more concentrated. In our case, the "substance" are the people. Since Cypriots, GC's and TC's are more or less are from the same "stock" for the last 400+ years, there can me no more changes that can occur that has not already happened, to have your feared "assimilation" to take effect. Perhaps more so now with people like T_C and Shah who are the outsiders from that Cypriot "stock", since they were born into something totally different, the "TRNC". We are however more likely to "assimilate" with the Turks more, because we have the same religion and language, and there are more of them us in the "TRNC", and many more in Turkey who may want to keep the Northern Cyprus as part of Turkey. It will be near impossible to escape "assimilation" of TC's by the Turks, only because, they are 700 times more than our population, the Indigenous TC's. Osmosis once again works when lower concentrated "substance" flows into more concentrated "substance". The TC's are the low concentrated "substance and Turkey the high concentrated "substance". At worse, the concentration difference between the TC's and the GC's is only 6:1 ratio, however, the TC and Turks is 700:1 ratio. You do the math and see which is more likely, even if you are not prepared to accept the 400+ years as being a strong indicator, that the GC-TC "assimilation" had not taken place in the past, other than becoming Cypriots.

You really need to relax and accept your Turkish roots you seem to be in rebellion as well as denial, we have more in common with our ancestors from Turkey and under the current climate TCs do not have a problem with returning to our roots, the choice between GCs and Turks was made back in 1974, havent you grasped this fact? Only the GCs can turn this tide they had the opportunity in 2004 but decided to say lets continue as we are and hope the EU perspective and isolation will smoke these people out. Sorry to disappoint but that will never work, unless we get a fair deal where we are guaranteed an equal partnership with a say in our own future there will be no deal.

I think people do want a settlement, but it has to be a fair deal to at least to the majority of Cypriots. I accept that not everyone is going to get what they hope for, but at the same time, no Cypriot should be ignored and everything humanly possible should be done to ensure that everyone has a voice in the final settlement. As Nikitas often reminds us, that Cyprus is a very small island and one can live in one part of the island, and at the same time drive to his fields to farm it, at another part of the island. The important thing is, that all Cypriots should not lose their ownerships of their property by force, but rather let them settle it amongst themselves, as the case is with every free market. There can be no settlement be made when one's will is forced on the other. This can only reignite problems down the road. I want to be treated with all my rights as I want others to be treated in the same way.

I agree with you to a certain extent but under a BBF solution many GCs and TCs will decide to stay put, those deciding to come back shoudl be accomadated with property being returned where posssible, those choosing to sell up should be compensated at market rates. ı aso agree totally that one sides will cannot be forced on the other so as long as GCs feel they have god given rights due to their numerical advanatge they cna think again we are equal pertners and demanded we be treated as such, we will not be pushed ot one side and want a structure that GCs will not be allowed to do this and if they do the will pay heavily by automatic division.

Note:
VP, you had another post that I wanted to answer, but forgot which one it was, so if you can remind me, I would appreciate it.

Sorry cant recall.

[Kikapu]

VP,

Shoulnt you know more about what the GCs really want? they claim they want a BBF solution... yet you are on about a "true federation" could you tell us all the difference between a true federation and the BBF TCs said yes to.

Perhaps you should tell us as to what it is that the GC's really want VP. I assume they would like to have a Unitary State, but willing to have a True Federation also. The BBF (bi-zonal, bi-communal federation based on the political equality of the two sides) that you talk about may not be the same BBF that the GC's are talking about. I do not think they are saying to the TC's, "have your own state in the North, 50% political power sharing, and a veto right on any desicion taken by the government and at the same time, have control on how many GC's can live in the North and at the same time to be subjected to TC laws, that may be different from a Federal one's, which may not give as protection to GC's as it may for the TC's".

My thinking is, that the GC's, if they go along on a BBF, they would want it to be on a True Federation that I, Piratis and Kifeas have talked about, which is to have North and South States, with their own laws, providing, that there is a strong Central Government, and that the Federal Laws supercede any of the State Laws when it comes to Democratic Rights, Human Rights, Freedom of Movement Rights, Freedom of Speech Right and so on. More than likely, the majority in the North will be TC's and GC's in the South, but there will be no limits as to who can live in the North or the South. Each person will be allowed to vote in any local elections as well as National. This to me is what a True Federation is. Of course, there are many other factors, but you get the idea. In short, a USA style of Federation Government.

You really need to relax and accept your Turkish roots you seem to be in rebellion as well as denial, we have more in common with our ancestors from Turkey and under the current climate TCs do not have a problem with returning to our roots, the choice between GCs and Turks was made back in 1974, havent you grasped this fact? Only the GCs can turn this tide they had the opportunity in 2004 but decided to say lets continue as we are and hope the EU perspective and isolation will smoke these people out. Sorry to disappoint but that will never work, unless we get a fair deal where we are guaranteed an equal partnership with a say in our own future there will be no deal.

Let me ask you a question VP.?? At what point in your life, did you realize that you are a descendant from the Ottomans and Turkey. Was it while you were in the UK, after you came to Cyprus in 1993, or since you have joined the forum.?? The reason why I ask is, I have never ever heard any TC in my life, before joining the forum, that we are not Cypriots from Cyprus, but we are from Cyprus but we come from Turkey and the Ottomans and that's where our root are. So why did you stop at Turkey and did not choose to go further East.? I find it amazing, that after 400+ years, you are not able to call yourself a Cypriot without dragging along your 400+ years of umbilical cord to the Ottomans. If you are going to do that, then please do not stop in Turkey and take it to the beginning.

Blacks in the States who were originally from Africa, and they call themselves African Americans, but have very little in common with your average Black Africans. African Blacks do not see their distant cousins of the USA Blacks as one of them, just as Turks in Turkey do not see us as one of them, and if you think otherwise, you are very much mistaken. We have a relationship with the Turks, and that's all there is to it. We are not their long lost cousins. But what I hear from some of you guys is, that the Turks are your family and want to believe that. Why can't you be your own persons and be who you are, which is a Cypriot who happens to be speaking Turkish. I'm sorry for the individuals like yourself, who are lost within themselves, and have the need to go back 400+ years to find their origins. Let me tell you VP, aside from language and religion, we have very little in common with the Turks. They even talk differently than us, and we were only a short boat ride away from them all those 400+ years. We had adapted to our local surroundings and that's what's makes us special. We are much closer to the GC's in every way, than we are to the Turks. This is not a let down to our friends in Turkey. On the contrary, it is the reality. You may not want to face reality is one thing, but please, do not ask me to forget my 400+ years in Cyprus which has given me everything genetically and culturally as to who I am, my parents, sisters and brothers. We are Cypriots. We are not Turks anymore. 400+ years is what did it. However, if I did feel as much of a Turk as you want to belong to, I'm very surprised that you have not chosen to go and live in Turkey.

My twin sister married to a wonderful man from Turkey, and she has been living there for 35 years. If you didn't know her and you talk to her, you will think that she is from Turkey and a Turk, and not a Cypriot. Why, because she has adapted to the life, culture, customs of Turkey. She even reads the Kuran for God sake VP. How many Turkish Cypriots do you know that reads the Kuran. OK, there might be one or two here and there, but it is not common thing. Point is, if after 400+ years of being in Cyprus was not enough for you to feel as a True Cypriot, then you will never find yourself, by trying to be part of the "Turkish family" you were part of one time in the past from Turkey. You are not one of them anymore, and they are not one of you. You are just neighbours who happens to be speaking the same language..............well, almost.!!

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu thank you for the well written response which is all it is, lots of meaningless words put together for pure show and nothing of substance,

Perhaps you should tell us as to what it is that the GC's really want VP.

They was a GC state where they are the indigenous people and we are a minority with no community rights or structures to ensure that we are not pushed to one sides and ignored when deciding our future.

The BBF (bi-zonal, bi-communal federation based on the political equality of the two sides) that you talk about may not be the same BBF that the GC's are talking about. I do not think they are saying to the TC's, "have your own state in the North, 50% political power sharing, and a veto right on any desicion taken by the government and at the same time, have control on how many GC's can live in the North and at the same time to be subjected to TC laws, that may be different from a Federal one's, which may not give as protection to GC's as it may for the TC's".

Why not? what makes them right and us wrong?

We do not want a veto on matters that are for the benefit of all, we want the right to say no when the numerical majority want to impose their will on us and take decisions on our behalf that will effect us worse than themselves. The structure can be such that everyone decides whether they wish to live in the TC or GC administered state, give ebveryone the freedom to choose. You seem to feel that laws will be better for the TCs than the GCs in the north, why is that? why do you not argue this in reverse? you are again showing your true colours.

My thinking is, that the GC's, if they go along on a BBF, they would want it to be on a True Federation that I, Piratis and Kifeas have talked about, which is to have North and South States, with their own laws, providing, that there is a strong Central Government, and that the Federal Laws supercede any of the State Laws when it comes to Democratic Rights, Human Rights, Freedom of Movement Rights, Freedom of Speech Right and so on. More than likely, the majority in the North will be TC's and GC's in the South, but there will be no limits as to who can live in the North or the South. Each person will be allowed to vote in any local elections as well as National. This to me is what a True Federation is. Of course, there are many other factors, but you get the idea. In short, a USA style of Federation Government.

So in reality what you are saying is the 4 to 1 advantage can be used to take control of the whole island? At what point does your brand of "True Democracy" stop the numerical GC majority passing decisions that force us into a corner or discriminate aginst the minority? allows them to vote for union with Greece or suspend trade with Turkey, at which point do you see danger for the TCs?? what protective structure do you put forward to address our concerns?

Let me ask you a question VP.?? At what point in your life, did you realize that you are a descendant from the Ottomans and Turkey. Was it while you were in the UK, after you came to Cyprus in 1993, or since you have joined the forum.?? The reason why I ask is, I have never ever heard any TC in my life, before joining the forum, that we are not Cypriots from Cyprus, but we are from Cyprus but we come from Turkey and the Ottomans and that's where our root are. So why did you stop at Turkey and did not choose to go further East.? I find it amazing, that after 400+ years, you are not able to call yourself a Cypriot without dragging along your 400+ years of umbilical cord to the Ottomans. If you are going to do that, then please do not stop in Turkey and take it to the beginning.

You really need a blast of reality, Ottomans were a long time ago but Turkish we are just as much as we are Cypriot, you seem to suffer an identity crisis as you wish to believe in a people called just the Cypriots which I acknowledge we had the chance to build in 1960 but we all know what happened there. We lost that chance but you appear to be trapped in the time frame 1960-1963. The TCs have moved on they embrace being proud Turkish Cypriots in a country called the TRNC will all its imperfections we feel we belong but this is something you will never understand or experience as you feel you belong more to a GC state which is 63% of this island where the GCs are in charge. you may not be proud of your Turkish origins but I personally am very proud and comfortable of both being Turkish and Cypriot, the rest of what you have posted above is your problem not mine.

Blacks in the States who were originally from Africa, and they call themselves African Americans, but have very little in common with your average Black Africans. African Blacks do not see their distant cousins of the USA Blacks as one of them, just as Turks in Turkey do not see us as one of them, and if you think otherwise, you are very much mistaken. We have a relationship with the Turks, and that's all there is to it. We are not their long lost cousins. But what I hear from some of you guys is, that the Turks are your family and want to believe that. Why can't you be your own persons and be who you are, which is a Cypriot who happens to be speaking Turkish. I'm sorry for the individuals like yourself, who are lost within themselves, and have the need to go back 400+ years to find their origins. Let me tell you VP, aside from language and religion, we have very little in common with the Turks. They even talk differently than us, and we were only a short boat ride away from them all those 400+ years. We had adapted to our local surroundings and that's what's makes us special.

Can the blacks in the USA change the colour of their skin? I am lucky enough to be able to trace my ancestry back to Turkey and am proud to have connections that are Turkish just as much as I am proud of being part of Cyprus and being Cypriot, you are the one who appears to be in denial not me. You are trying make excuses and refuse accepting that your origins are in fact Turkish, I agree that due to regional influence we have adapted to our environment but isnt this the same of many parts of Turkey, Greece or Bulgaria.

My twin sister married to a wonderful man from Turkey, and she has been living there for 35 years. If you didn't know her and you talk to her, you will think that she is from Turkey and a Turk, and not a Cypriot. Why, because she has adapted to the life, culture, customs of Turkey. She even reads the Kuran for God sake VP. How many Turkish Cypriots do you know that reads the Kuran. OK, there might be one or two here and there, but it is not common thing. Point is, if after 400+ years of being in Cyprus was not enough for you to feel as a True Cypriot, then you will never find yourself, by trying to be part of the "Turkish family" you were part of one time in the past from Turkey. You are not one of them anymore, and they are not one of you. You are just neighbours who happens to be speaking the same language..............well, almost.!!

You really have to come to terms with the new breed of TCs from the TRNC, for 45 years they have not been part or feel they belong to your "RoC", most of the younger generation dont give a shit about the south and dont really care about finding a solution. They are more interested in going out and having a good time, ask them about the Cyprus problem and they will probably say what problem? Imagine the situation after another 100 years?

[Kikapu]

Kikapu thank you for the well written response which is all it is, lots of meaningless words put together for pure show and nothing of substance,

Perhaps you should tell us as to what it is that the GC's really want VP.

They was a GC state where they are the indigenous people and we are a minority with no community rights or structures to ensure that we are not pushed to one sides and ignored when deciding our future.

The BBF (bi-zonal, bi-communal federation based on the political equality of the two sides) that you talk about may not be the same BBF that the GC's are talking about. I do not think they are saying to the TC's, "have your own state in the North, 50% political power sharing, and a veto right on any desicion taken by the government and at the same time, have control on how many GC's can live in the North and at the same time to be subjected to TC laws, that may be different from a Federal one's, which may not give as protection to GC's as it may for the TC's".

Why not? what makes them right and us wrong?

We do not want a veto on matters that are for the benefit of all, we want the right to say no when the numerical majority want to impose their will on us and take decisions on our behalf that will effect us worse than themselves. The structure can be such that everyone decides whether they wish to live in the TC or GC administered state, give ebveryone the freedom to choose. You seem to feel that laws will be better for the TCs than the GCs in the north, why is that? why do you not argue this in reverse? you are again showing your true colours.

My thinking is, that the GC's, if they go along on a BBF, they would want it to be on a True Federation that I, Piratis and Kifeas have talked about, which is to have North and South States, with their own laws, providing, that there is a strong Central Government, and that the Federal Laws supercede any of the State Laws when it comes to Democratic Rights, Human Rights, Freedom of Movement Rights, Freedom of Speech Right and so on. More than likely, the majority in the North will be TC's and GC's in the South, but there will be no limits as to who can live in the North or the South. Each person will be allowed to vote in any local elections as well as National. This to me is what a True Federation is. Of course, there are many other factors, but you get the idea. In short, a USA style of Federation Government.

So in reality what you are saying is the 4 to 1 advantage can be used to take control of the whole island? At what point does your brand of "True Democracy" stop the numerical GC majority passing decisions that force us into a corner or discriminate aginst the minority? allows them to vote for union with Greece or suspend trade with Turkey, at which point do you see danger for the TCs?? what protective structure do you put forward to address our concerns?

Let me ask you a question VP.?? At what point in your life, did you realize that you are a descendant from the Ottomans and Turkey. Was it while you were in the UK, after you came to Cyprus in 1993, or since you have joined the forum.?? The reason why I ask is, I have never ever heard any TC in my life, before joining the forum, that we are not Cypriots from Cyprus, but we are from Cyprus but we come from Turkey and the Ottomans and that's where our root are. So why did you stop at Turkey and did not choose to go further East.? I find it amazing, that after 400+ years, you are not able to call yourself a Cypriot without dragging along your 400+ years of umbilical cord to the Ottomans. If you are going to do that, then please do not stop in Turkey and take it to the beginning.

You really need a blast of reality, Ottomans were a long time ago but Turkish we are just as much as we are Cypriot, you seem to suffer an identity crisis as you wish to believe in a people called just the Cypriots which I acknowledge we had the chance to build in 1960 but we all know what happened there. We lost that chance but you appear to be trapped in the time frame 1960-1963. The TCs have moved on they embrace being proud Turkish Cypriots in a country called the TRNC will all its imperfections we feel we belong but this is something you will never understand or experience as you feel you belong more to a GC state which is 63% of this island where the GCs are in charge. you may not be proud of your Turkish origins but I personally am very proud and comfortable of both being Turkish and Cypriot, the rest of what you have posted above is your problem not mine.

Blacks in the States who were originally from Africa, and they call themselves African Americans, but have very little in common with your average Black Africans. African Blacks do not see their distant cousins of the USA Blacks as one of them, just as Turks in Turkey do not see us as one of them, and if you think otherwise, you are very much mistaken. We have a relationship with the Turks, and that's all there is to it. We are not their long lost cousins. But what I hear from some of you guys is, that the Turks are your family and want to believe that. Why can't you be your own persons and be who you are, which is a Cypriot who happens to be speaking Turkish. I'm sorry for the individuals like yourself, who are lost within themselves, and have the need to go back 400+ years to find their origins. Let me tell you VP, aside from language and religion, we have very little in common with the Turks. They even talk differently than us, and we were only a short boat ride away from them all those 400+ years. We had adapted to our local surroundings and that's what's makes us special.

Can the blacks in the USA change the colour of their skin? I am lucky enough to be able to trace my ancestry back to Turkey and am proud to have connections that are Turkish just as much as I am proud of being part of Cyprus and being Cypriot, you are the one who appears to be in denial not me. You are trying make excuses and refuse accepting that your origins are in fact Turkish, I agree that due to regional influence we have adapted to our environment but isnt this the same of many parts of Turkey, Greece or Bulgaria.

My twin sister married to a wonderful man from Turkey, and she has been living there for 35 years. If you didn't know her and you talk to her, you will think that she is from Turkey and a Turk, and not a Cypriot. Why, because she has adapted to the life, culture, customs of Turkey. She even reads the Kuran for God sake VP. How many Turkish Cypriots do you know that reads the Kuran. OK, there might be one or two here and there, but it is not common thing. Point is, if after 400+ years of being in Cyprus was not enough for you to feel as a True Cypriot, then you will never find yourself, by trying to be part of the "Turkish family" you were part of one time in the past from Turkey. You are not one of them anymore, and they are not one of you. You are just neighbours who happens to be speaking the same language..............well, almost.!!

You really have to come to terms with the new breed of TCs from the TRNC, for 45 years they have not been part or feel they belong to your "RoC", most of the younger generation dont give a shit about the south and dont really care about finding a solution. They are more interested in going out and having a good time, ask them about the Cyprus problem and they will probably say what problem? Imagine the situation after another 100 years?

VP,

Sometimes it is a waste of time trying to write any kind of common sense posts to you, because your propaganda is already decided and directed to a disguised/direct partition by taking something that does not belong to you. Don't be surprised to have another war in your hands at some point in the future, because your neighbour knows where you live and what you have stolen from them. Time does not stay still. That's your problem it seems, that you think what is today, will remain as is forever. You only have to look back at Cyprus history to tell you otherwise. Best you can hope for is to agree on certain land percentage with the GC's, then build a wall around yourself to keep them out. Unfortunately, the same wall will trap you in to be suffocated by the Turks. Enjoy.!!

[Viewpoint]

You still dont get it do you, a war could also result in the loss of the remaing 63% of the island, do you think the GCs are stupid enough to risk the GC state they have always yerned for?

The Turkish angle you try to use to paint doom and gloom will not work, time you tried something else. You are the right we have the % all we need now is recognition or a relaxation of the isolation which appears to be on the way...viva Kosova.

[Kikapu]

You still dont get it do you, a war could also result in the loss of the remaing 63% of the island, do you think the GCs are stupid enough to risk the GC state they have always yerned for?

The Turkish angle you try to use to paint doom and gloom will not work, time you tried something else. You are the right we have the % all we need now is recognition or a relaxation of the isolation which appears to be on the way...viva Kosova.

It will take Kosovo only 5 minutes to get recognition from major countries from the time they declare independence, even though they will not be recognised by the UN and the EU as a body and will be an illegal state much like the "TRNC", despite their state not based on ethnic cleansing and stolen land. After 34 years, you still can't hold a International Friendly Football match, so what makes you think anything is going to change for the "TRNC" because of Kosovo. Now that France and Germany have said NO to Turkeys EU ambitions, there won't be any incentive for the UN to push the RoC to make any compromises to help lift some of the isolation in order for Turkey to save face by having to agree to allow the RoC access to her ports. All the jubilation for the "TRNC's" 2008 fireworks is already began to fizzle out by the announcement of France and Germany. As Turkey said, Kosovo and the "TRNC" are two separate issues...They got that right.!