Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

"That is not for you to end or carry on, the war ended in 1974 and there has been no more killings/atrocities. "

That is one point of view, there is the other that says that the war has not started yet. The pause now might suit some people, but it is a pause, nothing more. Do not feel secure because of it. Peace is not what follows a single battle.

[Viewpoint]

We are not stupid we know that a veto on everything would hinder the running of the country and if a bill is for the benefit of the nation why on earth would we object, its when you have the power to vote for example that we unite with Greece or change the name of the country or stop us from trading with Turkey or use the EU to change the balance this is when we have to have the right to say hold we don't want to do that.

VP, I didn't say that you would veto everything. The question is not that. The question if you would like the right to veto anything you want, and if you would be willing to give this same right to a GC minority in a country where the majority of people would be TCs.

So, would you agree to a specific list things that you can veto. Or you want the power to veto anything you like?

If you would agree on the specific list, then tell me what the specific items on that list would be. E.g.: The TCs will have the right to veto Union of Cyprus with Greece.

Yes Piratis I would not have any problem giving GCs the right to veto as I woudl ensure that I woudl nto pass any laws that woudl effect them to a degree where they would ever feel it necessary to veto. Once this trust had been established they themselves would see they do not need to veto.

For the smooth running of the country I would not want a veto on everything that was being deicided upon but anything where TCs would be forced to do something against their will or have rights taken away, a list could be agreed or as Kifeas put forward a certain number of TC voted woudl be necessary on decision according to their sensativity.

GCs do not trust themselves to do the right thing to get the TCs on board and provide the comfort zone for the TCs not to feel threatened into using a veto, why are you so afraid?

stopping Trade with Turkey

Changes to the constitution

Removal of Turkish as an offical language

Union with Greece Italy Spain etc

Changes in voting to name a few.

[Viewpoint]

Are we to have a BBF just in the north state? ı would get the GCs invoved in every area of society and due to the fact that I would be confident that I would not try to discrminate or control them I would all them veto rights on issues that were sensative to thir community.

Your turn you answer the question?

Which are the issues that are sensitive to their community exactly? And you would just give them some vetoes? How about veto on everything they decide that is sensitive for them, 50% power share and all the other things you demand from a country where the majority are Greek Cypriots? Would you give all those to a a GC minority in a country where the TCs where the majority?

If you would, then the solution would be very easy.

Piratis you know full well that we do not demand veto rights on every issue under the sun we have discussed this before. Any decision that would effect our community more negatively than yours, eg stop trading with Turkey, remove Turkish as an official language, discrimination laws etc etc.

Kifeas put forward a viable solution where a specific number of TCs votes would be necessary on issues effecting a community more negatively than the other.

Yes VP, I have said this and I stand by it, but I also said many other things which you never commented, like for example why were you caught on the act of wanting and trying to convert the GC inhabitants of the north state into second class citizens, like your motherland treats the Kurds, with no educational, language, cultural, religious and political rights! You did not bother to comment on this, but also why were you caught attempting to import Turkey’s nationalist ideology (kemalism) into Cyprus, and impose it on the GCs as well! You never bothered to answer to any of these issues I have put on you with concrete evidence, and my strong suspicion is that in a united Cyprus your aim will be to be acting as the agents of Turkey in Cyprus, against the interests of Cyprus as a whole and against the GC community!

Kifeas I apologise for not responding earlier but I did not see your post or questions, You have to understand that the TRNC recognized or not is another country and we do not claim to be 100% perfect far from it we have a long way to go but so do many other countries. Its the GC state the "Roc" that claims to be a EU country abiding by all the laws and aquis, respecting human right and democracy well Kifeas you guys may be a few miles ahead of some of us but you to have a long way to go to being perfect, no country is 100% perfect.
So you really need to get of your self righteous horse forget those gym and shooting lessons and starting seeing us as human beings who want to live in peace and tranquility, we have to share this island and as long as we cannot agree to do so united we can do it divided.

[Eric dayi]

"That is not for you to end or carry on, the war ended in 1974 and there has been no more killings/atrocities. "

That is one point of view, there is the other that says that the war has not started yet. The pause now might suit some people, but it is a pause, nothing more. Do not feel secure because of it. Peace is not what follows a single battle.

Is that a threat Nikitas?

Is the reason why the "RoC" keeps buying arms to start another war?

So you turned out to be another warmonger, what else is new?

I'm sure many Turks and TCs feel very, very scared after your posting.

But do you really think that mama EU is going to let you start yet another war this time within it's borders? Somehow I don't think so pal so stop dreaming and come back down to earth.

[Nikitas]

Not a threat, just a reminder of the actual situation we have now- a cease fire. Normality is much different from a cease fire. Do not assume that the GCs will start the next round, nor that it will affect the GC south. It might be an all Turkish thing in which case the EU will have nothing to say. That is the problem with situations which seem to be normal but are not, they are totally unpredictable.

Another possibility is a technological change, a little one, that cancels out the advantages of an air force. We are not far from such an event. And then what? You and others in this forum thake the approach that Turkey has no need to hurry, well it does.

[Piratis]

And what solution do you propose umit? To ethnically cleanse Greek Cypriots so TCs can live separately? If thats the kind of "solution" you propose, here is a similar one: To ethnically cleanse the TCs from Cyprus, send them to Turkey, and this way we will not only be separate, but we will also be separate by a sea, so it should be even better. What do you think? Or separation of the two communities is OK only when it is about TCs gaining land on our loss and no the other way around?

You already tried to genocide us TCs and that's why the island is divided.

You lost lands while trying to steal ours illegally.

Your people got killed while you tried to genocide us TCs.

The only way to stop your ENOSIS dream was to partition the island.

The only reason why we TCs are now not Greek Muslims is because we put an end to your ENOSIS dream.

What I can tell you from our side is that we will never give up our homeland and we will continue fighting for it. So your options are: 1) Continue the war against us - which will never end since we will never capitulate.

That is not for you to end or carry on, the war ended in 1974 and there has been no more killings/atrocities.

or 2) Accept legality and try to create a peaceful country where the human rights of everybody are respected.

Where was the "legality" when you Greeks AND Greek Cypriots tried your best to genocide us TCs and steal our lands? Oh I forgot, we TCs have no rights because of what the Ottoman did to you poor GCs some 500 years ago, right?

Listen pal, we have another option, partition and whether you like it or not
the island will stay partitioned unless you give up on your "Cyprus is Greek" shite and stop trying to turn us TCs into second class minority with no rights to have a say in our own country and our future.

One thing you can be sure of, we will not capitulate either so you can wait till next millennium and hope for a "power shift" in your favour.

Here we go again with your lies. Who do you think you can convince with all those lies Eric? Uneducated retarts who have no clue of the Cyprus History?

The reason I am telling you about what happened in 1570 is because then was the only known genocide in the history of Cyprus.

The Turks then killed 20.000 people within days, which was the 10% of the population of Cyprus.

In recent times the biggest slaughtering was done again by Turkey in 1974 when they killed some 1000s of Cypriots. And then you come to call a conflict where a few 100s of GCs and a few 100s of TCs died as "genocide".

If there was a genocide during that time then the population of TCs would have decreased. Not only it did not decrease, but it increased both in absolute numbers and as a percentage of the total population. So cut the lies.

Here is a quote from a Council of Europe report:

According to the censuses which took place in Cyprus before the factual partition of the island, the Greek Cypriot community amounted to 447,901 (78,2%) in 1960, and to 498,511 (78,9%) in 1973. The Turkish Cypriot community numbered 103,822 (18,1%) people in 1960, and 116 000 (18,4%) in 1973. The total population of Cyprus was 572,707 in 1960 and 631,778 in 1973 (see Appendix 3, Table 1). An average rate of annual growth for both communities between 1960 and 1973 was similar and amounted to 0,8%. In consequence, the ethnic distribution of the population did not change between 1960 and 1974 and the proportion of each community remained stable.

So when did the "genocide" you talk about happen? In your dream?

You lost lands while trying to steal ours illegally.

Your people got killed while you tried to genocide us TCs.

Some Historical facts for you Eric:

1) The TCs are the ones who started killing GCs and created the first intercommunal conflict.

2) In that conflict both sides lost a few 100s of people.

3) That conflict was over by 1968. It had nothing to do with the invasion of 1974.

4) The killings between Turks and Cypriots in 1974 where again started by the Turks, and in that war GCs lost 1000s while TCs just a couple of 100s.

That is not for you to end or carry on, the war ended in 1974 and there has been no more killings/atrocities.

The war will be over when our island is liberated. What we have now is a cease fire. If you think that the war can end by 100s of thousands of people being ethnically cleansed then your dream will come true, and TCs and GCs will be separated, but not in the way you hope for.

[BirKibrisli]

I have no wish to dwell on the horrible inter-ethnic violence in our sorry history. But there is one incident which stands out. This must be told as it clearly indicates the complicity between the TMT and the British colonial power at the time. It is called "the Gonyeli massacre" and it took place on 12 June,1958...

The day before, the British forces had arrested about 50 GCs,for allegedly preparing to attack a Turkish village. They were packed in a truck and,escorted by an armoured vehicle,taken to a field near the TC village of Gonyeli near Nicosia. They were told to walk,through the fields, back to their village which was about 8 miles away. Thinking that the GCs had come to attach their village,and urged on by provocateurs no doubt,the TCs of Gonyeli set upon these unarmed GCs and hacked 9 of them to death before the British forces returned to save the rest.
Eight TCs were arrested and charged with murder,but were found not guilty for lack of sufficient evidence.

This incident fueled other ethnic violence and for a while no one(female,male,young or old) was safe from arbitrary violence,and many innocent people from both sides were killed in terrifyingly cruel ways.
By the first half of of July,58,the death tully was 35 TCs and 55 GCs,and 170 people seriously injured.Immediately after these incidents 700 GCs of the predominantly TC village of Kuchuk Kaymakli left their homes for safer GC areas,and the TC inhabitants of the Paphos village of Akursos moved on mass to the TC dominated village of Shillura,starting the first recorded self-expulsions and ethnic cleansing in Cyprus.The British policy of divide and rule was giving fruits.Soon other villages would follow suit,and life in Cyprus would never be the same again...

Due to the frequent curfews,and people's fears to move about freely,business and trade were badly affected all over the island.
Andreas Ziartides,the general secretary of the PEO,estimated the cost to the building industry for those two months alone to be in excess of 600 thousand pounds sterling. TC workers now refused to go back to their jobs in GC owned factories. Professionals like lawyers refused to attend court in unsafe areas,and doctors and dentists from both sides begun losing their longstanding clients of the "other" ethnic persuation. Partition was well and truly on its way... (Charles Foley,Legacy of Strife,Middlesex,1964

Soon the TCs started making official separationist demands from the British. They argued that they were the weaker side in this equation and on "humanitarian" grounds some offices and services had to be separated and placed in areas safe for the TCs.The ever empathetic and compassionate colonial power obliged...The Morphou Teachers College was the first to be segregated. This followed by certain health services, the Education Department,the Cooperative Services,amongst others.

So for a total of 60 or so TC deaths RR Denktash had managed to achieve a "mini partition" by the end of 1958.If Grivas had indulged him for a bit longer,Partition might have become a fait accomplie back then.
But on 4 August,1958 Grivas called for an official seize-fire. The TMT responded affirmatively the following day. So the people of Cyprus had a break from the terrible business of burning,looting,beating and killing each other. The seize fire was to last till 23 December,1963...

But a lot of water was to run under many bridges on this unfortunate island in the period in between. One of TMT's less brilliant ideas was the "from Turk to Turk" campaign which begun around this time. The idea was for the TCs to cut any trade or business ties with the GCs. The TMT actually distributed leaflets forbidding the TCs from any contact with the GCs whatsoever. Next came the Turkification of place names,and the ban on speaking Greek anywhere,including at home. For every work of Greek spoken people were to be fined 2 shillings. Kids were encouraged to dob in anyone who spoke Greek at home. But most of us kids knew instinctively that there was something wrong with trying to stop people from talking in the language they felt most comfortable in. The TMT established a new branch called the Youth League (Genclik Teshkilati) to enforce these prohibitions which soon included the prohibition to wear the islamic head gear,the Hijab (or Carshaf as we called it)... People in black shirts begun patrolling the TC villages intimidating and collecting money from the hapless villagers for disobeying the orders of the TMT.

As I hinted earlier,amongst all these prohibitions the one which failed miserably was the From Turk to Turk Campaign...This was Denktash's cherished dream of creating a rich TC business class which could be fleeced to support the campaign for Partition...Money was needed urgently to buy the weapons and ammunition necessary to keep the dream alive...
So certain TC "businessmen" set up shop here and there,buying their supplies at discount rates from the GC wholesalers and selling them onto the TCs at exorbitant prices. But the villagers and the working class TCs saw through this ploy and refused to participate. Seeing this,and wanting to humiliate Denktash,Dr Kuchuk called the whole campaign off. In a now famous speech in a cinema-meeting he used these words : "I will not allow the fruits of the sweat of our villagers and our workers to be consumed by a few greedy individuals...This campaign is hereby finished..."

Following the Gonyeli massacre the intercommunal violence reached new heights. On 12 July,1958 Sir Hugh Foot, the GC mayor of Nicosia,Mr Dervis,and RR Denktash made a joint appeal for a cease-fire which went unheeded. On 17 July the EOKA gunmen killed 5 unarmed TCs, the highest number of TC deaths in any single day so far.

This time Sir Hugh Foot ordered a Cyprus-wide cease-fire with immediate effect. Extensive curfew arrangements were put into place to prevent civilian movement and actions. And two new concentration/holding camps were established to cope with the expected number of arrests. Withing days 20 TCs and some 1500 GCs were arrested for defying the curfew.
Asked about the discrepancy between the TC and GC numbers Sir Hugh had this to say; "The EOA has been well established for some time now. The TMT is only new,and we know very little about it..." (Charles Folley,ibid,p.128)

Perhaps he had to have known better. For members of the TMT were enlisting on mass to serve in the Mobile Reserve and Auxiliary police forces. In June,1958 the Mobile Reserve police force had 256 members,all of whom were TCs...And out of the 1337 Auxiliary police only 56 were GCs. By the end of 1958 the TC numbers in the Mobile Reserve would reach 542,and those in the Auxiliary police would climb to 1700. (S.Pantelli,The New History of Cyprus,London,1984,p.303).

On the 19 June,1958,at the height of inter-communal violence came a surprising proposal from the British PM,Harold MacMillan. He proposed a limited form of self-government for the next 7 years,which involved establishing a separate House of Representatives for each community,and a Representative Council to have the final legislative authority in communal affairs,and internal administration,excluding Defence and Security.The council would be lead by the Governor,and include 4 members of the GC House of Reps and 2 members of the TC House of Reps,plus one representative each from the Turkish and Greek governments...The most interesting aspect of this proposal was the official acceptance of the British of the special interests over Cyprus of two foreign powers,Turkey and Greece.. The plot was getting thicker and thicker... MacMillan stated that at the end of the 7 year home-rule period,separate self determination rights could apply (meaning Partition and Enosis, or the colonial rule could continue,or, if Britain so decided, she could share sovereignty with Turkey and Greece. So instead of having one Master Cypriots could have three acting jointly...

[Viewpoint]

Piratis lets just disect your claims;

1) The TCs are the ones who started killing GCs and created the first intercommunal conflict.

Please supply independent details of dates namesand places...was this after we had shaken hands and signed the 1960 agreements?

2) In that conflict both sides lost a few 100s of people.

When in danger you retaliate and defend yourself, so the figures which you have no way of confirming becuase we have never really seen any facts to back up your claims that TCs killed hundreds of GC, do you have a website with a list of those killed and under what circumstances,( we ahev and can again supply a web site if you wish) you still have GCs who you claim we killed being found in graves in the south.

3) That conflict was over by 1968. It had nothing to do with the invasion of 1974.

The conflict was still very much alive for us after 1968, nothing had been resolved while your were prospering after stealing the "RoC" we were being forced to live in squaller by your discrimination and hardship creating tactics which are well documented. 1974 was the last drop which made the glass overflow.

4) The killings between Turks and Cypriots in 1974 where again started by the Turks, and in that war GCs lost 1000s while TCs just a couple of 100s.

Did you greet the intervening troops arriving on the invitation of Makarios with roses or bullets and bombs???


Rather blows your arguments out of the water Piratis, always 2 sides to a story you have to try and see it from this side of the fence. Its obvious we will never agree the chain of events or apportion blame because there are so many variables and differing viewpoints.

[Piratis]

Piratis lets just disect your claims;

1) The TCs are the ones who started killing GCs and created the first intercommunal conflict.

Please supply independent details of dates namesand places...was this after we had shaken hands and signed the 1960 agreements?

I did this many times VP. Here is the British made documentary about it.

2) In that conflict both sides lost a few 100s of people.

When in danger you retaliate and defend yourself, so the figures which you have no way of confirming becuase we have never really seen any facts to back up your claims that TCs killed hundreds of GC, do you have a website with a list of those killed and under what circumstances,( we ahev and can again supply a web site if you wish) you still have GCs who you claim we killed being found in graves in the south.

You didn't retaliate. You started the inter-communal conflict. Big difference. Read Birs report and you will see the victim count for both sides with sources given.

3) That conflict was over by 1968. It had nothing to do with the invasion of 1974.

The conflict was still very much alive for us after 1968, nothing had been resolved while your were prospering after stealing the "RoC" we were being forced to live in squaller by your discrimination and hardship creating tactics which are well documented. 1974 was the last drop which made the glass overflow.

There was no bloody conflict after 1968 and until 1974 that Turkey invaded Cyprus. Thats a fact VP. You were not participating in RoC because you choose to remove yourselves and fight for partition instead. I don't deny that we also have a share of blame for the bad relations of that time, but you should not deny your share of blame either.

4) The killings between Turks and Cypriots in 1974 where again started by the Turks, and in that war GCs lost 1000s while TCs just a couple of 100s.

Did you greet the intervening troops arriving on the invitation of Makarios with roses or bullets and bombs???

Makarios did not invite any invasion. The Turkish troops started to kill innocent people, bombing our cities and villages, and raping under age girls. Makarios had asked the UN to bring legality back to Cyprus, not from Turkey to start massacres and ethnic cleanings.

Rather blows your arguments out of the water Piratis, always 2 sides to a story you have to try and see it from this side of the fence. Its obvious we will never agree the chain of events or apportion blame because there are so many variables and differing viewpoints.

The facts and the truth is just one VP. I see both sides of the story and I do not deny the share of responsibility of our side during the inter communal conflict. On the other hand you are tyring to present yourselves as the innocent victims who now deserve to be rewarded on our loss, and you know very well you are not.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

I did this many times VP. Here is the British made documentary about it.

The video is just a snipit of what was going on at the time but what you have to realize is that the signing of the 1960 agreements was n order to bring an end the turmoil between our communities. You claim we started it which is wrong we had agreed to stop yet you were not happy with the agreement you had signed and reneged causing the turmoil to restart in 1963. You have to get things in perspective, you tend to just pick up pieces where you want to manipulate the whole issue, wwe had the golden opportunity to creat Cypriots we messed up big time so we are not all paying the price. Whether we really want to change anything today is down to us and its obvious we do not.

You didn't retaliate. You started the inter-communal conflict. Big difference. Read Birs report and you will see the victim count for both sides with sources given.

The numbers are not and indiciation of who started things for me 1960 was the turning point its obvious you were still out to get vegence but we were not,we retaliated to your greed to unite Cyprus to Greece by removing the only obstacle left in your was which was the TCs.

There was no bloody conflict after 1968 and until 1974 that Turkey invaded Cyprus. Thats a fact VP. You were not participating in RoC because you choose to remove yourselves and fight for partition instead. I don't deny that we also have a share of blame for the bad relations of that time, but you should not deny your share of blame either.

Conflict comes in many shapes and forms and the TCs were still in conflict with a dominating and discriminating GC community, who were doing everything within their power to get the TCs out of running the "RoC" (supreme court judgements you didnt adhere to) and keep us out by trying to force the Aktritas plan upon ıs before we coudl take our seats in parliament.

Makarios did not invite any invasion. The Turkish troops started to kill innocent people, bombing our cities and villages, and raping under age girls. Makarios had asked the UN to bring legality back to Cyprus, not from Turkey to start massacres and ethnic cleanings.

makarois made a plea at the UN for help when the coupists deposed and Turkey moved in to resolve a long outstnding conflict which had left TCs confined to certain areas and not able to effectively contribute to the running to the country.

The Turkish Army forces tried to land at the beaches in Kyrenia but came under heavy armed fire from the mountains where preparation had been going on for 11 years byy GCs, the first Turkish officer able to get on land and inflitrate GC forces was captured and literally torn to shreds and displayed for the Turks to see, at this point the Turkish army let all hell lose and thats why you suffered such veroicty, you shoudl have handed out roses instead of hand grenades and Im certain you woudl all still be living in your homes. Your eagerness to beat the Turks took you down the wrong path where you were beaten and had to make a run for it, the rest was full scale war against people who declared themselves to the enemy of the Turkish Army.

The facts and the truth is just one VP. I see both sides of the story and I do not deny the share of responsibility of our side during the inter communal conflict. On the other hand you are tyring to present yourselves as the innocent victims who now deserve to be rewarded on our loss, and you know very well you are not.

I do not deny we to made mistakes but never forget we were the smaller population and all our hopes we on Turkey helping us out in a time of crisis, do you remember the taunting songs on the GC radios "Im waiting but you are not arriving" we were the weaker community faced against a prsopering GC community who had hijacked the "RoC" using for all its worth to get ahead and eradicated TCs either by encouragement to go abroad or surrender into demands like Akritas or even face death at the hand of people like Makarios, Samson and Grivas.