Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Are we to have a BBF just in the north state? ı would get the GCs invoved in every area of society and due to the fact that I would be confident that I would not try to discrminate or control them I would all them veto rights on issues that were sensative to thir community.

Your turn you answer the question?

Which are the issues that are sensitive to their community exactly? And you would just give them some vetoes? How about veto on everything they decide that is sensitive for them, 50% power share and all the other things you demand from a country where the majority are Greek Cypriots? Would you give all those to a a GC minority in a country where the TCs where the majority?

If you would, then the solution would be very easy.

Piratis you know full well that we do not demand veto rights on every issue under the sun we have discussed this before. Any decision that would effect our community more negatively than yours, eg stop trading with Turkey, remove Turkish as an official language, discrimination laws etc etc.

Kifeas put forward a viable solution where a specific number of TCs votes would be necessary on issues effecting a community more negatively than the other.

[Piratis]

Are we to have a BBF just in the north state? ı would get the GCs invoved in every area of society and due to the fact that I would be confident that I would not try to discrminate or control them I would all them veto rights on issues that were sensative to thir community.

Your turn you answer the question?

Which are the issues that are sensitive to their community exactly? And you would just give them some vetoes? How about veto on everything they decide that is sensitive for them, 50% power share and all the other things you demand from a country where the majority are Greek Cypriots? Would you give all those to a a GC minority in a country where the TCs where the majority?

If you would, then the solution would be very easy.

Piratis you know full well that we do not demand veto rights on every issue under the sun we have discussed this before. Any decision that would effect our community more negatively than yours, eg stop trading with Turkey, remove Turkish as an official language, discrimination laws etc etc.

Kifeas put forward a viable solution where a specific number of TCs votes would be necessary on issues effecting a community more negatively than the other.

I have to admit that I didn't know "full well" what you say now.

What I don't like are double standards. When you think of your power share in a country where the majority of the population is GC, you should also think if you would accept that kind of power sharing in a country where the majority of the population are TCs.

Personally I never objected to TCs having veto power on specific issues. Those issues can be a long list also. However my impression so far is not that you wanted veto power only on some specific issues, but the power to use veto for whatever you want. Isn't this what you were asking?

[Viewpoint]

Are we to have a BBF just in the north state? ı would get the GCs invoved in every area of society and due to the fact that I would be confident that I would not try to discrminate or control them I would all them veto rights on issues that were sensative to thir community.

Your turn you answer the question?

Which are the issues that are sensitive to their community exactly? And you would just give them some vetoes? How about veto on everything they decide that is sensitive for them, 50% power share and all the other things you demand from a country where the majority are Greek Cypriots? Would you give all those to a a GC minority in a country where the TCs where the majority?

If you would, then the solution would be very easy.

Piratis you know full well that we do not demand veto rights on every issue under the sun we have discussed this before. Any decision that would effect our community more negatively than yours, eg stop trading with Turkey, remove Turkish as an official language, discrimination laws etc etc.

Kifeas put forward a viable solution where a specific number of TCs votes would be necessary on issues effecting a community more negatively than the other.

I have to admit that I didn't know "full well" what you say now.

What I don't like are double standards. When you think of your power share in a country where the majority of the population is GC, you should also think if you would accept that kind of power sharing in a country where the majority of the population are TCs.

Personally I never objected to TCs having veto power on specific issues. Those issues can be a long list also. However my impression so far is not that you wanted veto power only on some specific issues, but the power to use veto for whatever you want. Isn't this what you were asking?

We are not stupid we know that a veto on everything would hinder the running of the country and if a bill is for the benefit of the nation why on earth would we object, its when you have the power to vote for example that we unite with Greece or change the name of the country or stop us from trading with Turkey or use the EU to change the balance this is when we have to have the right to say hold we don't want to do that.

[BirKibrisli]

Having made the World stop and take notice of the TCs,the second stage of the operation could now begin. The aim now was to prove that the two communities could not possibly live peacefully together.

The date chosen for action was Saturday,7 June,1958. In events reminicent of those in Istanbul during 6-7 September,1955,a bomb was thrown from a passing car. The target was the Turkish Information office,in Kyrenia Rd, Nicosia...It was around 10 pm,and people were out and about in the balmy Nicosia summer night. Rumours fast spread that the Turkish quarter of Nicosia was under GC attack. People run out of their homes and open-air cinemas,and urged on by agent provocateurs,hundreds of TCs poured into the GC business sector of Nicosia setting shops on fire and destroying whatever they came across.When the frenzied attack came to an end two innocent GCs lay dead for no other reason than being at the wrong place at the wrong time...The following day in Larnaca 2 more GCs lost their lives in similar unprovoked attacks. Roudy protest meetings were held in Limassol,but without any loss of life.

This was the beginning of weeks of inter ethnic attacks and counter attacks,where Grivas would finally allow his EOKA fighters to turn their guns on TCs,resulting in 100s of innocent deaths from both sides. What shocked people most was the degree of violence and horror associated with most of the deaths.

It became known later that Sir Hugh had warned the Turkish Foreign Ministry and Rauf Denktash himself,against the possibility of such ethnic violence started primarily by the TCs. He requested that measures be taken to stop any such action. Not only did Denktash do nothing to prevent
the violence,he later tried to justify it. Let's hear it from the master manipulator himself : " The bombing incident should be separated from the TC action which followed. Our reaction was normal. In the circumstances ,our youth was only doing their duty. You could argue they might have gone too far. But it wasn't the TCs who were shedding blood,ignoring people's right to life and property during the preceding 4 years. It was the GCs...Those who created the atmosphere of hate and mistrust,those who tried to obtain political gains by violent action,should have expected the TC to behave in a similar manner..." (Milliyet Newspaper,22 December,1966)...

Denktash never admitted that the bomb on the 7 June,1958 was thrown by the TCs. But reliable TC sources have no doubt the bomb was thrown by one of Denktash's close associates for the reason of "increasing political tension amongst the TCs"...(Ahmet An,Kibris'ta Firtinali Yillar,1996,p.117)

I have no wish to dwell on the horrible inter-ethnic violence in our sorry history. But there is one incident which stands out. This must be told as it clearly indicates the complicity between the TMT and the British colonial power at the time. It is called "the Gonyeli massacre" and it took place on 12 June,1958...

The day before, the British forces had arrested about 50 GCs,for allegedly preparing to attack a Turkish village. They were packed in a truck and,escorted by an armoured vehicle,taken to a field near the TC village of Gonyeli near Nicosia. They were told to walk,through the fields, back to their village which was about 8 miles away. Thinking that the GCs had come to attach their village,and urged on by provocateurs no doubt,the TCs of Gonyeli set upon these unarmed GCs and hacked 9 of them to death before the British forces returned to save the rest.
Eight TCs were arrested and charged with murder,but were found not guilty for lack of sufficient evidence.

This incident fueled other ethnic violence and for a while no one(female,male,young or old) was safe from arbitrary violence,and many innocent people from both sides were killed in terrifyingly cruel ways.
By the first half of of July,58,the death tully was 35 TCs and 55 GCs,and 170 people seriously injured.Immediately after these incidents 700 GCs of the predominantly TC village of Kuchuk Kaymakli left their homes for safer GC areas,and the TC inhabitants of the Paphos village of Akursos moved on mass to the TC dominated village of Shillura,starting the first recorded self-expulsions and ethnic cleansing in Cyprus.The British policy of divide and rule was giving fruits.Soon other villages would follow suit,and life in Cyprus would never be the same again...

Due to the frequent curfews,and people's fears to move about freely,business and trade were badly affected all over the island.
Andreas Ziartides,the general secretary of the PEO,estimated the cost to the building industry for those two months alone to be in excess of 600 thousand pounds sterling. TC workers now refused to go back to their jobs in GC owned factories. Professionals like lawyers refused to attend court in unsafe areas,and doctors and dentists from both sides begun losing their longstanding clients of the "other" ethnic persuation. Partition was well and truly on its way... (Charles Foley,Legacy of Strife,Middlesex,1964

BK, you mention the 'complicity of TMT and the British'. However, in your narrative you do not mention TMT at all. Are you suggesting the 'provocateurs were TMT or affilliates. Do you have any evidence for this. Doubtless, the killings did happen and on a British website Army Officer accounts call this one of the biggest blunders of the British Army in Cyprus. In a time when tensions were rising it would not be unusual for locals to keep 'watch' on any suspicious looking movement of peoples.

Deniz...I believe that the 7-8 June incidents were staged by the TMT. I also believe that nothing much happened from the TC side at the time without the sanctioning by the TMT...I have of course no proof of the "complicity",and the British denied any suggestion at the time. But why on earth would the British drop 50 (35 in some reports) unarmed GCs near a large TC village and leave them to walk through fields to get to their own village 8 miles away??? And in the aftermath of the June incidents when ethnic hatred was at fever pitch???

[Nikitas]

British compicity is there and thinly disguised if at all. GCs arrested for mere possession of arms faced hanging or long term imprisonment regardless of whether they were actual fighting personnel of EOKA or mere "mules" transporting the arms. The prosecuting lawyers were usually TCs, Denktash being famous for his prosecutions, and the judges British.

Not one single TC was ever arrested,charged and succesfully convicted of arms possession. There are photos, and I will look for them to post here, of TMT fighters holding British made automatic weapons posing openly in daylight with their arms. The notorious sergeant Tuna was arrested and held for explosives possession but somehow managed to escape from custody and flee to Turkey.

On a more personal note. During the riots when the TC mob attacked the commercial center of Nicosia we were three blocks away, in Alexandrou street which is near Ledra street. We were under curfew. The British would patrol and then post two TC policemen on the corner of our street to protect us. When a lady protested about the lack of substantial protection the British army officer shouted from his landrover "call EOKA to protect you".

It is pretty clear that EOKA could not operate as freely as the TMT in these circumstances. EOKA operations in urban areas were extremely dangerous for the people involved. My impression is that TMT in urban areas had more or less a free hand. Perhaps this is the reason that there were no mob attacks on TC areas in urban areas even though Grivas had issued a warning that EOKA would retaliate. It could not, at least not on the scale of the attacks.

Which brings us to the 1963 events and we have to ask how much of that was not a personal payback for the attacks of 57 and 58. It is interesting that the major attacks by GCs this time occured in Kaimakli, Omorfita, Trahonas and Nicosia center. The places where the TMT had attacked with most vigor a few years before.

A lot is made of the picture of Sampson holding a Turkish flag. Its symbolic value is significant for both sides. The story I have heard is that the flag was taken from a GC house, the occupants of which had been kicked out in 1958 and which was used as bunker from then on.

As expected the period 1960-63 was a time of mutual suspicion. We had moved to Famagusta by then and we knew some police officers in the CID. They complained about the long hours they had to work keeping an eye on the TCs moving around the port. I remember one of them saying in company: "these guys (referring to TCs) are arming in a big way".

Another vivid memory of the time was the arrival of the mainland military contingents in Famagusta port. The Greek contingent came with a band and marched from the port to their trucks complete with music and to a great welcome. The Turkish soldiers borded trucks and sat stone faced, their shaven heads shining, and they were driven in silence first through Trikomo and then westwards. I think the idea was to avoid going through major villages and to enter Nicosia from the north, through Gionely. The contrast was telling.

[BirKibrisli]

I have no wish to dwell on the horrible inter-ethnic violence in our sorry history. But there is one incident which stands out. This must be told as it clearly indicates the complicity between the TMT and the British colonial power at the time. It is called "the Gonyeli massacre" and it took place on 12 June,1958...

The day before, the British forces had arrested about 50 GCs,for allegedly preparing to attack a Turkish village. They were packed in a truck and,escorted by an armoured vehicle,taken to a field near the TC village of Gonyeli near Nicosia. They were told to walk,through the fields, back to their village which was about 8 miles away. Thinking that the GCs had come to attach their village,and urged on by provocateurs no doubt,the TCs of Gonyeli set upon these unarmed GCs and hacked 9 of them to death before the British forces returned to save the rest.
Eight TCs were arrested and charged with murder,but were found not guilty for lack of sufficient evidence.

This incident fueled other ethnic violence and for a while no one(female,male,young or old) was safe from arbitrary violence,and many innocent people from both sides were killed in terrifyingly cruel ways.
By the first half of of July,58,the death tully was 35 TCs and 55 GCs,and 170 people seriously injured.Immediately after these incidents 700 GCs of the predominantly TC village of Kuchuk Kaymakli left their homes for safer GC areas,and the TC inhabitants of the Paphos village of Akursos moved on mass to the TC dominated village of Shillura,starting the first recorded self-expulsions and ethnic cleansing in Cyprus.The British policy of divide and rule was giving fruits.Soon other villages would follow suit,and life in Cyprus would never be the same again...

Due to the frequent curfews,and people's fears to move about freely,business and trade were badly affected all over the island.
Andreas Ziartides,the general secretary of the PEO,estimated the cost to the building industry for those two months alone to be in excess of 600 thousand pounds sterling. TC workers now refused to go back to their jobs in GC owned factories. Professionals like lawyers refused to attend court in unsafe areas,and doctors and dentists from both sides begun losing their longstanding clients of the "other" ethnic persuation. Partition was well and truly on its way... (Charles Foley,Legacy of Strife,Middlesex,1964

Soon the TCs started making official separationist demands from the British. They argued that they were the weaker side in this equation and on "humanitarian" grounds some offices and services had to be separated and placed in areas safe for the TCs.The ever empathetic and compassionate colonial power obliged...The Morphou Teachers College was the first to be segregated. This followed by certain health services, the Education Department,the Cooperative Services,amongst others.

So for a total of 60 or so TC deaths RR Denktash had managed to achieve a "mini partition" by the end of 1958.If Grivas had indulged him for a bit longer,Partition might have become a fait accomplie back then.
But on 4 August,1958 Grivas called for an official seize-fire. The TMT responded affirmatively the following day. So the people of Cyprus had a break from the terrible business of burning,looting,beating and killing each other. The seize fire was to last till 23 December,1963...

But a lot of water was to run under many bridges on this unfortunate island in the period in between. One of TMT's less brilliant ideas was the "from Turk to Turk" campaign which begun around this time. The idea was for the TCs to cut any trade or business ties with the GCs. The TMT actually distributed leaflets forbidding the TCs from any contact with the GCs whatsoever. Next came the Turkification of place names,and the ban on speaking Greek anywhere,including at home. For every work of Greek spoken people were to be fined 2 shillings. Kids were encouraged to dob in anyone who spoke Greek at home. But most of us kids knew instinctively that there was something wrong with trying to stop people from talking in the language they felt most comfortable in. The TMT established a new branch called the Youth League (Genclik Teshkilati) to enforce these prohibitions which soon included the prohibition to wear the islamic head gear,the Hijab (or Carshaf as we called it)... People in black shirts begun patrolling the TC villages intimidating and collecting money from the hapless villagers for disobeying the orders of the TMT.

As I hinted earlier,amongst all these prohibitions the one which failed miserably was the From Turk to Turk Campaign...This was Denktash's cherished dream of creating a rich TC business class which could be fleeced to support the campaign for Partition...Money was needed urgently to buy the weapons and ammunition necessary to keep the dream alive...
So certain TC "businessmen" set up shop here and there,buying their supplies at discount rates from the GC wholesalers and selling them onto the TCs at exorbitant prices. But the villagers and the working class TCs saw through this ploy and refused to participate. Seeing this,and wanting to humiliate Denktash,Dr Kuchuk called the whole campaign off. In a now famous speech in a cinema-meeting he used these words : "I will not allow the fruits of the sweat of our villagers and our workers to be consumed by a few greedy individuals...This campaign is hereby finished..."

[Piratis]

We are not stupid we know that a veto on everything would hinder the running of the country and if a bill is for the benefit of the nation why on earth would we object, its when you have the power to vote for example that we unite with Greece or change the name of the country or stop us from trading with Turkey or use the EU to change the balance this is when we have to have the right to say hold we don't want to do that.

VP, I didn't say that you would veto everything. The question is not that. The question if you would like the right to veto anything you want, and if you would be willing to give this same right to a GC minority in a country where the majority of people would be TCs.

So, would you agree to a specific list things that you can veto. Or you want the power to veto anything you like?

If you would agree on the specific list, then tell me what the specific items on that list would be. E.g.: The TCs will have the right to veto Union of Cyprus with Greece.

[Kifeas]

Are we to have a BBF just in the north state? ı would get the GCs invoved in every area of society and due to the fact that I would be confident that I would not try to discrminate or control them I would all them veto rights on issues that were sensative to thir community.

Your turn you answer the question?

Which are the issues that are sensitive to their community exactly? And you would just give them some vetoes? How about veto on everything they decide that is sensitive for them, 50% power share and all the other things you demand from a country where the majority are Greek Cypriots? Would you give all those to a a GC minority in a country where the TCs where the majority?

If you would, then the solution would be very easy.

Piratis you know full well that we do not demand veto rights on every issue under the sun we have discussed this before. Any decision that would effect our community more negatively than yours, eg stop trading with Turkey, remove Turkish as an official language, discrimination laws etc etc.

Kifeas put forward a viable solution where a specific number of TCs votes would be necessary on issues effecting a community more negatively than the other.

Yes VP, I have said this and I stand by it, but I also said many other things which you never commented, like for example why were you caught on the act of wanting and trying to convert the GC inhabitants of the north state into second class citizens, like your motherland treats the Kurds, with no educational, language, cultural, religious and political rights! You did not bother to comment on this, but also why were you caught attempting to import Turkey’s nationalist ideology (kemalism) into Cyprus, and impose it on the GCs as well! You never bothered to answer to any of these issues I have put on you with concrete evidence, and my strong suspicion is that in a united Cyprus your aim will be to be acting as the agents of Turkey in Cyprus, against the interests of Cyprus as a whole and against the GC community!

[Piratis]

Deniz...I believe that the 7-8 June incidents were staged by the TMT. I also believe that nothing much happened from the TC side at the time without the sanctioning by the TMT...I have of course no proof of the "complicity",and the British denied any suggestion at the time. But why on earth would the British drop 50 (35 in some reports) unarmed GCs near a large TC village and leave them to walk through fields to get to their own village 8 miles away??? And in the aftermath of the June incidents when ethnic hatred was at fever pitch???

Bir, it is clear that EOKA's aim was to fight the Colonialists and not to attack the TCs.

EOKA had killed many GCs who they considered to be traitors (some say they killed more GCs than British). I am sure many TCs had collaborated with the British as well and therefore the fact that EOKA did not target those TCs shows that not only there was no policy of targeting TCs, but possibly there was a policy of not targeting TCs as the EOKA leadership knew very well that the colonialists would use such events for their usual divide and rule practices they applied in several other countries earlier.

It is a fact that the inter-communal conflict was ignited by the colonialists and TMT, and then they tried to blame it on Greek Cypriots in order to excuse the unacceptable and undemocratic provisions of the 1960 agreements that were forced on the Cypriot people that gave to Britain the right to keep under colonization parts of our island, and kept the Cypriot people divided, polarized and in conflict, in order to ensure that the Cypriot people will never be united, something that would endanger the presence of their huge bases on our island.

[Eric dayi]

And what solution do you propose umit? To ethnically cleanse Greek Cypriots so TCs can live separately? If thats the kind of "solution" you propose, here is a similar one: To ethnically cleanse the TCs from Cyprus, send them to Turkey, and this way we will not only be separate, but we will also be separate by a sea, so it should be even better. What do you think? Or separation of the two communities is OK only when it is about TCs gaining land on our loss and no the other way around?

You already tried to genocide us TCs and that's why the island is divided.

You lost lands while trying to steal ours illegally.

Your people got killed while you tried to genocide us TCs.

The only way to stop your ENOSIS dream was to partition the island.

The only reason why we TCs are now not Greek Muslims is because we put an end to your ENOSIS dream.

What I can tell you from our side is that we will never give up our homeland and we will continue fighting for it. So your options are: 1) Continue the war against us - which will never end since we will never capitulate.

That is not for you to end or carry on, the war ended in 1974 and there has been no more killings/atrocities.

or 2) Accept legality and try to create a peaceful country where the human rights of everybody are respected.

Where was the "legality" when you Greeks AND Greek Cypriots tried your best to genocide us TCs and steal our lands? Oh I forgot, we TCs have no rights because of what the Ottoman did to you poor GCs some 500 years ago, right?

Listen pal, we have another option, partition and whether you like it or not
the island will stay partitioned unless you give up on your "Cyprus is Greek" shite and stop trying to turn us TCs into second class minority with no rights to have a say in our own country and our future.

One thing you can be sure of, we will not capitulate either so you can wait till next millennium and hope for a "power shift" in your favour.