Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

What I said to Umit is not what I want to achieve but the reverse of what you want to achieve. You want to separate the two communities by means of ethnic cleansing and gaining land on our loss. You would also have to be "victorius" in order to achieve such thing, but you are not victorious either, otherwise you wouldn't have a problem today.

What I suggest and want to achieve is a solution where everybody gets what they own, without any side gaining on the loss of another, so there would be no winners and no losers. If however you insist that there should be a winner and a loser, then diffidently we will not let you win on our loss.

[Viewpoint]

What I said to Umit is not what I want to achieve but the reverse of what you want to achieve. You want to separate the two communities by means of ethnic cleansing and gaining land on our loss. You would also have to be "victorius" in order to achieve such thing, but you are not victorious either, otherwise you wouldn't have a problem today.

What I suggest and want to achieve is a solution where everybody gets what they own, without any side gaining on the loss of another, so there would be no winners and no losers. If however you insist that there should be a winner and a loser, then diffidently we will not let you win on our loss.

The land is not the problem never has been the power sharing is the problem, how will you ensure that TCs have an effective say in their own future and are not exposed to GC manipulation and trickery by using their numerical advantage to dominate the whole island? We do not trust one one inch what safeguards to you propose to combat this fear of the TCs?

[Piratis]

VP, we had that discussion about a million times. So how about if we reverse it the question.

Say there was a country with a TC majority and a GC minority in it. What safeguards would you give to that GC minority in order to ensure that TCs would not dominate the whole country?

Say for example that your "trnc" is recognized and part of the agreement for this to happen is that some Greek Cypriots would be allowed to return in the north creating a GC minority of 18% there. How would the power-sharing between GCs and TCs be?

[Nikitas]

Bir,

You mentione at one point that the USA had a part in the EOKA campaign. The reference brought back memories of the Suez crisis of 1956 when we heard the moan of planes taking off from Tymbou. It was an awesome experience hearing that noise going on through the night.

When the Suez operation was nixed by Americans it is conceivable that they would want to have a hand in places like Cyprus that could be used as staging areas against Suez which was vital in the American way of looking at the world. Former US ambassador to Greece, Keely, wrote of the perception that the US had of itself as the world's first naval power and of the USSR as the premier land power. Greece, said the ambassador, decided to align itself with the naval power.

Why not then give Cyprus to Greece? Why the favoritism towards Turkish plans for partition as evidenced by George Ball's comment to major Packard "son, the game here is partition"? Major Packard has written about this and has also given several radio and TV interviews about his meeting with Ball. For those who do not know, Packard was with the UN peace keeping force and Ball was US foreign undersecretary for Cyprus.

I recall that soon after the establishment of the republic in 1960 we had a strong presence of the USA in Cyprus, with a large embassy staff, involvement in local politics in the form of EDMA and the acquisition of at least two electronic spying installations given by the Makarios government in Mia Milia and the Pentadaktylos range.

It seems that the USA got involved once it realised that the British wanted out and the overriding concern was the powerful AKEL party with influence in both communities. To the Americans and their psychoses with communism this must have appeared as a big threat. Neutralising AKEL combines well with the intercommunal strife, the ethnic struggle cancelling out any fancy ideas about socialism and worker solidarity. This also explains the slaying of communists by both TMT and EOKA, the victims were at the time the only voice against ethnic violence. From that point on the American involvement in Cyprus was to control internal communism and keep the island firmly in the west. It did this by keeping the armed factions of both sides firmly in the hands of staunch anticommunist-nationalist officers from the two mainlands and by neautralising the left or by compelling the left to neutralise itself. As it did on the GC side where it supported Makarios and never made an attempt at gaining the presidency or parliamentary control even though AKEL has been politically the strongest party.


As per your request Bir I am keeping close to the theme of the thread. I want to see your secret weapon used on those who have started the usual arguments. And Bir, you owe us an account of the reasons your father left the TMT.

[Viewpoint]

VP, we had that discussion about a million times. So how about if we reverse it the question.

Say there was a country with a TC majority and a GC minority in it. What safeguards would you give to that GC minority in order to ensure that TCs would not dominate the whole country?

Say for example that your "trnc" is recognized and part of the agreement for this to happen is that some Greek Cypriots would be allowed to return in the north creating a GC minority of 18% there. How would the power-sharing between GCs and TCs be?

Are we to have a BBF just in the north state? ı would get the GCs invoved in every area of society and due to the fact that I would be confident that I would not try to discrminate or control them I would all them veto rights on issues that were sensative to thir community.

Your turn you answer the question?



If

[DT.]

VP, we had that discussion about a million times. So how about if we reverse it the question.

Say there was a country with a TC majority and a GC minority in it. What safeguards would you give to that GC minority in order to ensure that TCs would not dominate the whole country?

Say for example that your "trnc" is recognized and part of the agreement for this to happen is that some Greek Cypriots would be allowed to return in the north creating a GC minority of 18% there. How would the power-sharing between GCs and TCs be?

Are we to have a BBF just in the north state? ı would get the GCs invoved in every area of society and due to the fact that I would be confident that I would not try to discrminate or control them I would all them veto rights on issues that were sensative to thir community.

Your turn you answer the question?



If

and if my grandmother had balls.....

[BirKibrisli]

Bir,

You mentione at one point that the USA had a part in the EOKA campaign. The reference brought back memories of the Suez crisis of 1956 when we heard the moan of planes taking off from Tymbou. It was an awesome experience hearing that noise going on through the night.

When the Suez operation was nixed by Americans it is conceivable that they would want to have a hand in places like Cyprus that could be used as staging areas against Suez which was vital in the American way of looking at the world. Former US ambassador to Greece, Keely, wrote of the perception that the US had of itself as the world's first naval power and of the USSR as the premier land power. Greece, said the ambassador, decided to align itself with the naval power.

Why not then give Cyprus to Greece? Why the favoritism towards Turkish plans for partition as evidenced by George Ball's comment to major Packard "son, the game here is partition"? Major Packard has written about this and has also given several radio and TV interviews about his meeting with Ball. For those who do not know, Packard was with the UN peace keeping force and Ball was US foreign undersecretary for Cyprus.

I recall that soon after the establishment of the republic in 1960 we had a strong presence of the USA in Cyprus, with a large embassy staff, involvement in local politics in the form of EDMA and the acquisition of at least two electronic spying installations given by the Makarios government in Mia Milia and the Pentadaktylos range.

It seems that the USA got involved once it realised that the British wanted out and the overriding concern was the powerful AKEL party with influence in both communities. To the Americans and their psychoses with communism this must have appeared as a big threat. Neutralising AKEL combines well with the intercommunal strife, the ethnic struggle cancelling out any fancy ideas about socialism and worker solidarity. This also explains the slaying of communists by both TMT and EOKA, the victims were at the time the only voice against ethnic violence. From that point on the American involvement in Cyprus was to control internal communism and keep the island firmly in the west. It did this by keeping the armed factions of both sides firmly in the hands of staunch anticommunist-nationalist officers from the two mainlands and by neautralising the left or by compelling the left to neutralise itself. As it did on the GC side where it supported Makarios and never made an attempt at gaining the presidency or parliamentary control even though AKEL has been politically the strongest party.


As per your request Bir I am keeping close to the theme of the thread. I want to see your secret weapon used on those who have started the usual arguments. And Bir, you owe us an account of the reasons your father left the TMT.

Thanks for your contribution,Nikitas.
I have not touched on the ideological/cold war side of this conflict,and the efforts made to prevent the two communities from having joint trade unions and political parties. No doubt the Americans were extremely worried about the strength of communism,and the attraction of communism amongst the working people of Cyprus.
I believe though that the main interest of the Americans at the time was the Middle East oil fields,and how to stop the British from exploiting them at the expense of the Americans. This was the reason why America preferred to back Turkey's position of Partition instead of Enosis. They also needed Turkey and the American bases there to strengthen their hold on the Middle East. They were also not sure about the left/right struggle in Greece perhaps. But I know little about the history of Greek communism and how close they had come to becoming a serious thread for the establishment. If you are informed in this area please feel free to talk about it here.

As to my father's reasons for leaving the TMT,I thought that was self explanatory. Father was an independent thinker,and a unionist. He had joined the TMT to help protect the TC community from the feared EOKA attacks. He was really a passivist,and I guess a Cypriot nationalist. When he realised how the TMT was being used in the attempt to prepare the ground for Partition,he didn't want to be a part of it. But the problem was once you were in the TMT,and privy to certain information,there was usually one way you got out of it,feet first in an horizontal position...
Somehow he managed to convince Nalbantoglu,who was Denktash's right-hand man in the TMT,that it was wiser to let him go quietly than with a big bang...

[BirKibrisli]

Having made the World stop and take notice of the TCs,the second stage of the operation could now begin. The aim now was to prove that the two communities could not possibly live peacefully together.

The date chosen for action was Saturday,7 June,1958. In events reminicent of those in Istanbul during 6-7 September,1955,a bomb was thrown from a passing car. The target was the Turkish Information office,in Kyrenia Rd, Nicosia...It was around 10 pm,and people were out and about in the balmy Nicosia summer night. Rumours fast spread that the Turkish quarter of Nicosia was under GC attack. People run out of their homes and open-air cinemas,and urged on by agent provocateurs,hundreds of TCs poured into the GC business sector of Nicosia setting shops on fire and destroying whatever they came across.When the frenzied attack came to an end two innocent GCs lay dead for no other reason than being at the wrong place at the wrong time...The following day in Larnaca 2 more GCs lost their lives in similar unprovoked attacks. Roudy protest meetings were held in Limassol,but without any loss of life.

This was the beginning of weeks of inter ethnic attacks and counter attacks,where Grivas would finally allow his EOKA fighters to turn their guns on TCs,resulting in 100s of innocent deaths from both sides. What shocked people most was the degree of violence and horror associated with most of the deaths.

It became known later that Sir Hugh had warned the Turkish Foreign Ministry and Rauf Denktash himself,against the possibility of such ethnic violence started primarily by the TCs. He requested that measures be taken to stop any such action. Not only did Denktash do nothing to prevent
the violence,he later tried to justify it. Let's hear it from the master manipulator himself : " The bombing incident should be separated from the TC action which followed. Our reaction was normal. In the circumstances ,our youth was only doing their duty. You could argue they might have gone too far. But it wasn't the TCs who were shedding blood,ignoring people's right to life and property during the preceding 4 years. It was the GCs...Those who created the atmosphere of hate and mistrust,those who tried to obtain political gains by violent action,should have expected the TC to behave in a similar manner..." (Milliyet Newspaper,22 December,1966)...

Denktash never admitted that the bomb on the 7 June,1958 was thrown by the TCs. But reliable TC sources have no doubt the bomb was thrown by one of Denktash's close associates for the reason of "increasing political tension amongst the TCs"...(Ahmet An,Kibris'ta Firtinali Yillar,1996,p.117)

I have no wish to dwell on the horrible inter-ethnic violence in our sorry history. But there is one incident which stands out. This must be told as it clearly indicates the complicity between the TMT and the British colonial power at the time. It is called "the Gonyeli massacre" and it took place on 12 June,1958...

The day before, the British forces had arrested about 50 GCs,for allegedly preparing to attack a Turkish village. They were packed in a truck and,escorted by an armoured vehicle,taken to a field near the TC village of Gonyeli near Nicosia. They were told to walk,through the fields, back to their village which was about 8 miles away. Thinking that the GCs had come to attach their village,and urged on by provocateurs no doubt,the TCs of Gonyeli set upon these unarmed GCs and hacked 9 of them to death before the British forces returned to save the rest.
Eight TCs were arrested and charged with murder,but were found not guilty for lack of sufficient evidence.

This incident fueled other ethnic violence and for a while no one(female,male,young or old) was safe from arbitrary violence,and many innocent people from both sides were killed in terrifyingly cruel ways.
By the first half of of July,58,the death tully was 35 TCs and 55 GCs,and 170 people seriously injured.Immediately after these incidents 700 GCs of the predominantly TC village of Kuchuk Kaymakli left their homes for safer GC areas,and the TC inhabitants of the Paphos village of Akursos moved on mass to the TC dominated village of Shillura,starting the first recorded self-expulsions and ethnic cleansing in Cyprus.The British policy of divide and rule was giving fruits.Soon other villages would follow suit,and life in Cyprus would never be the same again...

Due to the frequent curfews,and people's fears to move about freely,business and trade were badly affected all over the island.
Andreas Ziartides,the general secretary of the PEO,estimated the cost to the building industry for those two months alone to be in excess of 600 thousand pounds sterling. TC workers now refused to go back to their jobs in GC owned factories. Professionals like lawyers refused to attend court in unsafe areas,and doctors and dentists from both sides begun losing their longstanding clients of the "other" ethnic persuation. Partition was well and truly on its way... (Charles Foley,Legacy of Strife,Middlesex,1964

[Piratis]

Are we to have a BBF just in the north state? ı would get the GCs invoved in every area of society and due to the fact that I would be confident that I would not try to discrminate or control them I would all them veto rights on issues that were sensative to thir community.

Your turn you answer the question?

Which are the issues that are sensitive to their community exactly? And you would just give them some vetoes? How about veto on everything they decide that is sensitive for them, 50% power share and all the other things you demand from a country where the majority are Greek Cypriots? Would you give all those to a a GC minority in a country where the TCs where the majority?

If you would, then the solution would be very easy.

[denizaksulu]

Having made the World stop and take notice of the TCs,the second stage of the operation could now begin. The aim now was to prove that the two communities could not possibly live peacefully together.

The date chosen for action was Saturday,7 June,1958. In events reminicent of those in Istanbul during 6-7 September,1955,a bomb was thrown from a passing car. The target was the Turkish Information office,in Kyrenia Rd, Nicosia...It was around 10 pm,and people were out and about in the balmy Nicosia summer night. Rumours fast spread that the Turkish quarter of Nicosia was under GC attack. People run out of their homes and open-air cinemas,and urged on by agent provocateurs,hundreds of TCs poured into the GC business sector of Nicosia setting shops on fire and destroying whatever they came across.When the frenzied attack came to an end two innocent GCs lay dead for no other reason than being at the wrong place at the wrong time...The following day in Larnaca 2 more GCs lost their lives in similar unprovoked attacks. Roudy protest meetings were held in Limassol,but without any loss of life.

This was the beginning of weeks of inter ethnic attacks and counter attacks,where Grivas would finally allow his EOKA fighters to turn their guns on TCs,resulting in 100s of innocent deaths from both sides. What shocked people most was the degree of violence and horror associated with most of the deaths.

It became known later that Sir Hugh had warned the Turkish Foreign Ministry and Rauf Denktash himself,against the possibility of such ethnic violence started primarily by the TCs. He requested that measures be taken to stop any such action. Not only did Denktash do nothing to prevent
the violence,he later tried to justify it. Let's hear it from the master manipulator himself : " The bombing incident should be separated from the TC action which followed. Our reaction was normal. In the circumstances ,our youth was only doing their duty. You could argue they might have gone too far. But it wasn't the TCs who were shedding blood,ignoring people's right to life and property during the preceding 4 years. It was the GCs...Those who created the atmosphere of hate and mistrust,those who tried to obtain political gains by violent action,should have expected the TC to behave in a similar manner..." (Milliyet Newspaper,22 December,1966)...

Denktash never admitted that the bomb on the 7 June,1958 was thrown by the TCs. But reliable TC sources have no doubt the bomb was thrown by one of Denktash's close associates for the reason of "increasing political tension amongst the TCs"...(Ahmet An,Kibris'ta Firtinali Yillar,1996,p.117)

I have no wish to dwell on the horrible inter-ethnic violence in our sorry history. But there is one incident which stands out. This must be told as it clearly indicates the complicity between the TMT and the British colonial power at the time. It is called "the Gonyeli massacre" and it took place on 12 June,1958...

The day before, the British forces had arrested about 50 GCs,for allegedly preparing to attack a Turkish village. They were packed in a truck and,escorted by an armoured vehicle,taken to a field near the TC village of Gonyeli near Nicosia. They were told to walk,through the fields, back to their village which was about 8 miles away. Thinking that the GCs had come to attach their village,and urged on by provocateurs no doubt,the TCs of Gonyeli set upon these unarmed GCs and hacked 9 of them to death before the British forces returned to save the rest.
Eight TCs were arrested and charged with murder,but were found not guilty for lack of sufficient evidence.

This incident fueled other ethnic violence and for a while no one(female,male,young or old) was safe from arbitrary violence,and many innocent people from both sides were killed in terrifyingly cruel ways.
By the first half of of July,58,the death tully was 35 TCs and 55 GCs,and 170 people seriously injured.Immediately after these incidents 700 GCs of the predominantly TC village of Kuchuk Kaymakli left their homes for safer GC areas,and the TC inhabitants of the Paphos village of Akursos moved on mass to the TC dominated village of Shillura,starting the first recorded self-expulsions and ethnic cleansing in Cyprus.The British policy of divide and rule was giving fruits.Soon other villages would follow suit,and life in Cyprus would never be the same again...

Due to the frequent curfews,and people's fears to move about freely,business and trade were badly affected all over the island.
Andreas Ziartides,the general secretary of the PEO,estimated the cost to the building industry for those two months alone to be in excess of 600 thousand pounds sterling. TC workers now refused to go back to their jobs in GC owned factories. Professionals like lawyers refused to attend court in unsafe areas,and doctors and dentists from both sides begun losing their longstanding clients of the "other" ethnic persuation. Partition was well and truly on its way... (Charles Foley,Legacy of Strife,Middlesex,1964

BK, you mention the 'complicity of TMT and the British'. However, in your narrative you do not mention TMT at all. Are you suggesting the 'provocateurs were TMT or affilliates. Do you have any evidence for this. Doubtless, the killings did happen and on a British website Army Officer accounts call this one of the biggest blunders of the British Army in Cyprus. In a time when tensions were rising it would not be unusual for locals to keep 'watch' on any suspicious looking movement of peoples.