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How geopolitics underminded democracy in Cyprus in 1960

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How geopolitics underminded democracy in Cyprus in 1960

Postby Salonikios » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:30 pm

Well Cyprus is an island in eastern Mediterranean which was due to it's geostrategical importance submitted in Assyrian, Egyptian, Mycenaean, Persian, Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Arab, Crusade, Venetian, Ottoman and finally British rule.Irrespective of the number of years of it's reign -and the subsequent immigration off and on the island which the conquests triggered - there were some who influenced the island greatly comparing to others some who left their mark and some who didn't.

What's a fact is that when colonialism started to crack under the pressure of the emerging movement for self-determination and independence shortly after the WW2, the island had an overwhelmingly Orthodox christian population with a substantial minority of Muslims under a British administration which was trying to grasp helplessly onto the island and it's position near the Suez canal and the Middle East oils.Before continuing it is wise to refer shortly to one-two things about Muslims and their perception of peace and well-administration which explains to an extent their stance not only in Cyprus but in all post-Ottoman Balkan states.

Ottoman empire was a theocracy so the leader of every community in the empire was it's religious leader.In the case of Orthodox Christians it was the Patriarch of Constantinople and specifically in Cyprus was the bishop of the island who had some traditional (dating from Byzantine era) privileges.So Church was granted the role of the political economic and spiritual leader of the community by the Ottomans themselves.

So enough for the moaning about the role of the Church in Cyprus cauze Ottomans are the ones to blame.Ottomans granted the Church with exceptional rights Ottomans granted them the 91% of arable land in Cyprus.Ottomans led to having an archbishop running politics in the island with all disastrous results we know.

But what about inter-community relations in the island :?: Well Muslims on the island were mostly converts (Orthodox and Venetians) to Islam plus the small Ottoman garrison.The mixed up villages were always very few and very rare.In fact both communities interacted only in big cities and there living in different districts.

A non-Muslim in the empire couldn't testify against a Muslim.Had to pay excessive taxes to the administration, had to build a house always in elevation lower than a Muslim's, had to not ring the bell of it's church if that was bothering nearby Muslims generally was a second-class citizen whose rights (the very basic ones that he had) were at the mercy of the local Ottoman administrator and everyone knows that Ottomans administrators weren't choosed because of their capabilities but more likely because of the ever present baksisi that was indeed a good investment as he would latter make for the money he spent to buy the position with further taxing his non-Muslims subjects.

So as India, Pakistan and African countries started steadily to gain independence Cypriot people demanded so but with one big difference.Muslim Cypriots who identified with Turkey called for British rule to remain.Called for imperialists to stay.But why this :?:

Well first of all Britain-the most capable colonial power ever and the great advocatives of divide and conquer- wanted to keep the island as much longer under it's boot as possible.So to the unfaithful Greek-Cypriots who demanded a referendum for independence (what's more democratic than the population of the island deciding for it's self) they responded with huggings repression jail etc.But at the same time in order to transfer the matter from independence to inter-communal conflict they started favoring Turks in police recruits in state positions so that the 18% of the population to account for more than half of the policemen.

But why Turks sided with Britain :?: More importantly why did they do that when 1)EOKA 1 was speaking about independence and then Enosis through referendums 2) Noone cared about Turks (i mean killing them etc)

In other words there wasn't any threat of them being wiped out which it's like a joke as we see Muslims living in Greece reaching 100,000 whilst Greeks in Turkey being 2,000 down of 300,000!!!!

In any case Muslims seem to like to give minority status to other(even when CypriotGreeks accounts as much as 80% of the island) but themselves can't settle with minority rights when they make up just the 18%.


After Britain's humiliation in Suez Canal (1956) and Eden's resignation they made their mind about keeping two bases and giving independence to the rest of the island but instead of letting it's own people decide the drew Greece and Turkey to the matter.

The point was simple.If there was a referendum Cypriots would decide overwhelmingly for independence and maybe for Union with Greece that shaking the future status of British bases and more importantly their relations with Turkey.Funny enough Turkish Cypriots although claiming Cypriotness after 1974 where asking for British to stay or alternatively for Ottoman-Turkish rule to be reestablished.Either way so much for their Cypriotness.

In this context with a Greek state which didn't even heal the scars from civil war and internal turmoil an agreement for Cypriots without Cypriots was reached the Zurich agreement and the 1960 constitution was put in action which guaranteed the 18% Turks rights almost as if the were 50%.The minority leader could veto all kind of laws have separate districts generally it was a constitution that above all would guarantee one thing.

The island's split for ever and the British bases.

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Postby T_C » Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:09 pm

I don't think GCs ever realise the "seriousness" of annexing the country to Greece!!! They're trying their hardest to stop the same thing happening to 36% of the island but sometimes they just can't seem to understand why we didn't want the same thing happening to the WHOLE country. Imagine that?? If there was a GOOD CHANCE that Turkey was about to take over the whole island! Wouldn't the GCs have done ANYTHING to stop it happening? I don't even need to answer that but it's the same for us. You might see us as a minority and think "they should of let us unite with Greece" but trust me I think the GCs know the fire that burns inside us for Cyprus, they just think their ones more "valid" because of their 3000 year history but it's no different for us regardless...and uniting with Greece for us was UNTHINKABLE, and considering how it was done where no one asked TCs for their opinions, it was like giving up our country to foreigners!! (sound familiar??) :wink:

We won't ever agree but I just don't understand what you expected us to do? No one even consulted us about enosis, and that was the GCs who we'd been living with for hundreds of years....imagine what it would of been like when the GREEKS came. :shock:
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Postby Piratis » Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:01 pm

T_C wrote:I don't think GCs ever realise the "seriousness" of annexing the country to Greece!!! They're trying their hardest to stop the same thing happening to 36% of the island but sometimes they just can't seem to understand why we didn't want the same thing happening to the WHOLE country. Imagine that?? If there was a GOOD CHANCE that Turkey was about to take over the whole island! Wouldn't the GCs have done ANYTHING to stop it happening? I don't even need to answer that but it's the same for us. You might see us as a minority and think "they should of let us unite with Greece" but trust me I think the GCs know the fire that burns inside us for Cyprus, they just think their ones more "valid" because of their 3000 year history but it's no different for us regardless...and uniting with Greece for us was UNTHINKABLE, and considering how it was done where no one asked TCs for their opinions, it was like giving up our country to foreigners!! (sound familiar??) :wink:

We won't ever agree but I just don't understand what you expected us to do? No one even consulted us about enosis, and that was the GCs who we'd been living with for hundreds of years....imagine what it would of been like when the GREEKS came. :shock:


T_C as I said several times I 100% understand why you didn't want Enosis and I excuse your reaction.

What you confuse though is that Enosis was the legitimate desire of the great majority of the Cypriot people after being oppressed by foreign rulers for centuries. You are asking for us to "imagine" how it would be for us if we were in your position. Guess what: We were in your position for 3+ centuries, in fact in a way worst position as we were not equal Ottoman citizens, but second category ones. And even though we are the great majority of this island do you think anybody asked us if we wanted to be part of the Ottoman empire or not? Cyprus being liberated and becoming part of the newly formed Greek state would only be just. If you claim the opposite then you should also claim that no part of the Hellenic world should have been liberated because it used to be ruled by Ottomans and Muslim minorities where formed.

So don't confuse our legitimate cause for enosis, with the cause of partition. Partition is something enforced by outsiders, not something which is the democratic desire of Cypriots. Partition involves ethnic cleansing and mass violations of human rights non of which is required by enosis.

So I understand why you didn't want enosis, and I excuse your reaction, but please don't try to equate the legitimate desire of the Cypriots with the crime of partition.
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:30 pm

T_C wrote:I don't think GCs ever realise the "seriousness" of annexing the country to Greece!!! They're trying their hardest to stop the same thing happening to 36% of the island but sometimes they just can't seem to understand why we didn't want the same thing happening to the WHOLE country. Imagine that?? If there was a GOOD CHANCE that Turkey was about to take over the whole island! Wouldn't the GCs have done ANYTHING to stop it happening? I don't even need to answer that but it's the same for us. You might see us as a minority and think "they should of let us unite with Greece" but trust me I think the GCs know the fire that burns inside us for Cyprus, they just think their ones more "valid" because of their 3000 year history but it's no different for us regardless...and uniting with Greece for us was UNTHINKABLE, and considering how it was done where no one asked TCs for their opinions, it was like giving up our country to foreigners!! (sound familiar??) :wink:

We won't ever agree but I just don't understand what you expected us to do? No one even consulted us about enosis, and that was the GCs who we'd been living with for hundreds of years....imagine what it would of been like when the GREEKS came. :shock:


There is one thing I cannot understand.

For he Gcs annexation of the island to Turkey equals hell for sure. The reason is because they have bad memories from the Ottoman era.

What were the bad memories of the TCs against the Greeks, i mean where exactly were basing their fears for Enosis?

Was it more a matter of "national pride" than fear?
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Postby Salonikios » Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:33 pm

T_C wrote:I don't think GCs ever realise the "seriousness" of annexing the country to Greece!!! They're trying their hardest to stop the same thing happening to 36% of the island but sometimes they just can't seem to understand why we didn't want the same thing happening to the WHOLE country. Imagine that?? If there was a GOOD CHANCE that Turkey was about to take over the whole island! Wouldn't the GCs have done ANYTHING to stop it happening? I don't even need to answer that but it's the same for us. You might see us as a minority and think "they should of let us unite with Greece" but trust me I think the GCs know the fire that burns inside us for Cyprus, they just think their ones more "valid" because of their 3000 year history but it's no different for us regardless...and uniting with Greece for us was UNTHINKABLE, and considering how it was done where no one asked TCs for their opinions, it was like giving up our country to foreigners!! (sound familiar??) :wink:

We won't ever agree but I just don't understand what you expected us to do? No one even consulted us about enosis, and that was the GCs who we'd been living with for hundreds of years....imagine what it would of been like when the GREEKS came. :shock:


As i understand it's not the Greek monsters you afraid of but the democracy thing.In any case TC wouldn't be second class to GK as GKs in Ottoman era.They would be a respected and protected minority part of a liberal republic(as Greece and Cyprus already are) so where is your fear based :?: When Greek state had as formal policy the extinction of Turks:?:

GK were 82 and you 18 percent and if 82 percent wanted independence or a union with Greece (with in any case respect to the rights of any TC or GK who would disagree) i don't see the problem.That's the point of democracy.

Anyway i don't think that Cyprus would have united necessarily with Greece.In fact the more Turkey stands as threat the more GC want to find security to "mother Greece".Cyprus could have been the biggest proof of coexistence between Greeks and Turks without the traditional inter-communal depictions of monster Turks and Greeks via-versa.GK would be the more open Greeks to Turks and TC the more open Turks to Greeks.

As it is now the situation is completely the opposite.Sadly enough off-course.
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Postby T_C » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:44 pm

Piratis wrote:
T_C wrote:I don't think GCs ever realise the "seriousness" of annexing the country to Greece!!! They're trying their hardest to stop the same thing happening to 36% of the island but sometimes they just can't seem to understand why we didn't want the same thing happening to the WHOLE country. Imagine that?? If there was a GOOD CHANCE that Turkey was about to take over the whole island! Wouldn't the GCs have done ANYTHING to stop it happening? I don't even need to answer that but it's the same for us. You might see us as a minority and think "they should of let us unite with Greece" but trust me I think the GCs know the fire that burns inside us for Cyprus, they just think their ones more "valid" because of their 3000 year history but it's no different for us regardless...and uniting with Greece for us was UNTHINKABLE, and considering how it was done where no one asked TCs for their opinions, it was like giving up our country to foreigners!! (sound familiar??) :wink:

We won't ever agree but I just don't understand what you expected us to do? No one even consulted us about enosis, and that was the GCs who we'd been living with for hundreds of years....imagine what it would of been like when the GREEKS came. :shock:


T_C as I said several times I 100% understand why you didn't want Enosis and I excuse your reaction.

What you confuse though is that Enosis was the legitimate desire of the great majority of the Cypriot people after being oppressed by foreign rulers for centuries. You are asking for us to "imagine" how it would be for us if we were in your position. Guess what: We were in your position for 3+ centuries, in fact in a way worst position as we were not equal Ottoman citizens, but second category ones. And even though we are the great majority of this island do you think anybody asked us if we wanted to be part of the Ottoman empire or not? Cyprus being liberated and becoming part of the newly formed Greek state would only be just. If you claim the opposite then you should also claim that no part of the Hellenic world should have been liberated because it used to be ruled by Ottomans and Muslim minorities where formed.

So don't confuse our legitimate cause for enosis, with the cause of partition. Partition is something enforced by outsiders, not something which is the democratic desire of Cypriots. Partition involves ethnic cleansing and mass violations of human rights non of which is required by enosis.

So I understand why you didn't want enosis, and I excuse your reaction, but please don't try to equate the legitimate desire of the Cypriots with the crime of partition.


Ok Piratis for YOU to understand 100% why we opposed Enosis then you must know our fears were justified. I'm not trying to challenge you but enosis would of led to the violations of TCs human rights in one way or another...We weren't getting on as it was and that was the Cypriots only...I dread to think what it would of been like with the mainlanders. :?

It may of been your legitamite right but it didn't help you not even asking us our opinion as though we didn't even exist...
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Postby humanist » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:06 pm

T_C
I don't think GCs ever realise the "seriousness" of annexing the country to Greece!!! They're trying their hardest to stop the same thing happening to 36% of the island but sometimes they just can't seem to understand why we didn't want the same thing happening to the WHOLE country. Imagine that?? If there was a GOOD CHANCE that Turkey was about to take over the whole island! Wouldn't the GCs have done ANYTHING to stop it happening? I don't even need to answer that but it's the same for us. You might see us as a minority and think "they should of let us unite with Greece" but trust me I think the GCs know the fire that burns inside us for Cyprus, they just think their ones more "valid" because of their 3000 year history but it's no different for us regardless...and uniting with Greece for us was UNTHINKABLE, and considering how it was done where no one asked TCs for their opinions, it was like giving up our country to foreigners!! (sound familiar??)

We won't ever agree but I just don't understand what you expected us to do? No one even consulted us about enosis, and that was the GCs who we'd been living with for hundreds of years....imagine what it would of been like when the GREEKS came.


What is your point dude. We have heard it all before. How many times have we heard this enosis crap now? T-C you can get stuck back there in the 50's or you can become a man of new principles and ideas.
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Postby RebelWithoutAPause » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:12 pm

Ok Piratis for YOU to understand 100% why we opposed Enosis then you must know our fears were justified. I'm not trying to challenge you but enosis would of led to the violations of TCs human rights in one way or another...We weren't getting on as it was and that was the Cypriots only...I dread to think what it would of been like with the mainlanders.

It may of been your legitamite right but it didn't help you not even asking us our opinion as though we didn't even exist...


T_C, your showing your ignorance once again with regards to your quote i've put in bold.

While the rule and the actions of Turkish military has quite a strong backing with the people of Turkey, the short Greek military rule in Greece was strongly opposed by the Greek people who overturned the Junta themselves and threw its leaders in jail. This is where the Greeks and Turks are quite different, because while the Turks look to the Turkish military like some kind of demi-gods, the Greeks look at its military and rule with common sense.

Therefore, I expect you think that because the Greek Junta, which ran EOKA B, was in power in Greece, it must have the full support with the mainland Greeks...No, they are not the Turks - they can think with a sensible mind. Infact, youd probably like the mainland Greeks more than the Greeks from Cyprus, as they are a lot more forward and progressive thinking.

T_C, you do this trait which seems to be typical of Turks on this website and try to deceive people into thinking that the actions of a few in power represent the same ideologies as the people they rule. Maybe thats the case of the Turks because Ataturk told you to do so - but not for the Greeks.
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Postby Piratis » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:46 pm

T_C wrote:
Piratis wrote:
T_C wrote:I don't think GCs ever realise the "seriousness" of annexing the country to Greece!!! They're trying their hardest to stop the same thing happening to 36% of the island but sometimes they just can't seem to understand why we didn't want the same thing happening to the WHOLE country. Imagine that?? If there was a GOOD CHANCE that Turkey was about to take over the whole island! Wouldn't the GCs have done ANYTHING to stop it happening? I don't even need to answer that but it's the same for us. You might see us as a minority and think "they should of let us unite with Greece" but trust me I think the GCs know the fire that burns inside us for Cyprus, they just think their ones more "valid" because of their 3000 year history but it's no different for us regardless...and uniting with Greece for us was UNTHINKABLE, and considering how it was done where no one asked TCs for their opinions, it was like giving up our country to foreigners!! (sound familiar??) :wink:

We won't ever agree but I just don't understand what you expected us to do? No one even consulted us about enosis, and that was the GCs who we'd been living with for hundreds of years....imagine what it would of been like when the GREEKS came. :shock:


T_C as I said several times I 100% understand why you didn't want Enosis and I excuse your reaction.

What you confuse though is that Enosis was the legitimate desire of the great majority of the Cypriot people after being oppressed by foreign rulers for centuries. You are asking for us to "imagine" how it would be for us if we were in your position. Guess what: We were in your position for 3+ centuries, in fact in a way worst position as we were not equal Ottoman citizens, but second category ones. And even though we are the great majority of this island do you think anybody asked us if we wanted to be part of the Ottoman empire or not? Cyprus being liberated and becoming part of the newly formed Greek state would only be just. If you claim the opposite then you should also claim that no part of the Hellenic world should have been liberated because it used to be ruled by Ottomans and Muslim minorities where formed.

So don't confuse our legitimate cause for enosis, with the cause of partition. Partition is something enforced by outsiders, not something which is the democratic desire of Cypriots. Partition involves ethnic cleansing and mass violations of human rights non of which is required by enosis.

So I understand why you didn't want enosis, and I excuse your reaction, but please don't try to equate the legitimate desire of the Cypriots with the crime of partition.


Ok Piratis for YOU to understand 100% why we opposed Enosis then you must know our fears were justified. I'm not trying to challenge you but enosis would of led to the violations of TCs human rights in one way or another...We weren't getting on as it was and that was the Cypriots only...I dread to think what it would of been like with the mainlanders. :?

It may of been your legitamite right but it didn't help you not even asking us our opinion as though we didn't even exist...


Yes, your fears were justified due to what happened in some other Turkish populations in Greece and Greek populations in Turkey. I wouldn't say I underatnd you 100% if this was not the case.

This doesn't mean that if enosis happened your human rights would be violated. Say for example that some close relative of yours dies in a plane crash. Then you would have a very justified fear of planes, but it doesn't mean that planes where made to kill you or that if you got on a plane you would die too. Still the fear would be justified and understandable.

Similarly the enosis cause was not created to violate any of your rights, and under normal circumstances it wouldn't. However your fear that things could go wrong and not normal is justified.

So I do not blame you for siding with the British to defeat enosis, but I don't think you can blame us for wanting our freedom after so many centuries of foreign rulers. Independence was first proposed by Makarios in 1959. Until then freedom = enosis.

As I said another time a true independence would be the best solution that would satisfy the greater number of Cypriots and would give to Cyprus its freedom without doing what a significant % of the population opposed for justified reasons. However to tell you the truth I, and probably the GC leaders of the time, knew that those powers that have huge interests in Cyprus would never allow small Cyprus to be truly independent, and this was proven with the 1960 agreements that they made and forced on us. (with "guarantor powers", areas of Cyprus remaining under colonial rule, dividing the Cypriot people along ethnic lines so it would be easier to manipulate etc)
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Postby Viewpoint » Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:50 am

Piratis wrote:
T_C wrote:
Piratis wrote:
T_C wrote:I don't think GCs ever realise the "seriousness" of annexing the country to Greece!!! They're trying their hardest to stop the same thing happening to 36% of the island but sometimes they just can't seem to understand why we didn't want the same thing happening to the WHOLE country. Imagine that?? If there was a GOOD CHANCE that Turkey was about to take over the whole island! Wouldn't the GCs have done ANYTHING to stop it happening? I don't even need to answer that but it's the same for us. You might see us as a minority and think "they should of let us unite with Greece" but trust me I think the GCs know the fire that burns inside us for Cyprus, they just think their ones more "valid" because of their 3000 year history but it's no different for us regardless...and uniting with Greece for us was UNTHINKABLE, and considering how it was done where no one asked TCs for their opinions, it was like giving up our country to foreigners!! (sound familiar??) :wink:

We won't ever agree but I just don't understand what you expected us to do? No one even consulted us about enosis, and that was the GCs who we'd been living with for hundreds of years....imagine what it would of been like when the GREEKS came. :shock:


T_C as I said several times I 100% understand why you didn't want Enosis and I excuse your reaction.

What you confuse though is that Enosis was the legitimate desire of the great majority of the Cypriot people after being oppressed by foreign rulers for centuries. You are asking for us to "imagine" how it would be for us if we were in your position. Guess what: We were in your position for 3+ centuries, in fact in a way worst position as we were not equal Ottoman citizens, but second category ones. And even though we are the great majority of this island do you think anybody asked us if we wanted to be part of the Ottoman empire or not? Cyprus being liberated and becoming part of the newly formed Greek state would only be just. If you claim the opposite then you should also claim that no part of the Hellenic world should have been liberated because it used to be ruled by Ottomans and Muslim minorities where formed.

So don't confuse our legitimate cause for enosis, with the cause of partition. Partition is something enforced by outsiders, not something which is the democratic desire of Cypriots. Partition involves ethnic cleansing and mass violations of human rights non of which is required by enosis.

So I understand why you didn't want enosis, and I excuse your reaction, but please don't try to equate the legitimate desire of the Cypriots with the crime of partition.


Ok Piratis for YOU to understand 100% why we opposed Enosis then you must know our fears were justified. I'm not trying to challenge you but enosis would of led to the violations of TCs human rights in one way or another...We weren't getting on as it was and that was the Cypriots only...I dread to think what it would of been like with the mainlanders. :?

It may of been your legitamite right but it didn't help you not even asking us our opinion as though we didn't even exist...


Yes, your fears were justified due to what happened in some other Turkish populations in Greece and Greek populations in Turkey. I wouldn't say I underatnd you 100% if this was not the case.

This doesn't mean that if enosis happened your human rights would be violated. Say for example that some close relative of yours dies in a plane crash. Then you would have a very justified fear of planes, but it doesn't mean that planes where made to kill you or that if you got on a plane you would die too. Still the fear would be justified and understandable.

Similarly the enosis cause was not created to violate any of your rights, and under normal circumstances it wouldn't. However your fear that things could go wrong and not normal is justified.

So I do not blame you for siding with the British to defeat enosis, but I don't think you can blame us for wanting our freedom after so many centuries of foreign rulers. Independence was first proposed by Makarios in 1959. Until then freedom = enosis.

As I said another time a true independence would be the best solution that would satisfy the greater number of Cypriots and would give to Cyprus its freedom without doing what a significant % of the population opposed for justified reasons. However to tell you the truth I, and probably the GC leaders of the time, knew that those powers that have huge interests in Cyprus would never allow small Cyprus to be truly independent, and this was proven with the 1960 agreements that they made and forced on us. (with "guarantor powers", areas of Cyprus remaining under colonial rule, dividing the Cypriot people along ethnic lines so it would be easier to manipulate etc)


We fought for what we believed was right and will continue to do so, we will never allow you to dominate or brush us to one side, we will not allow you to take decisions for us when we are totally against them, the sooner you understand this the better it will be for everyone.
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