Cyprus-Forum.com

[CopperLine]

I can see where people get their basic wrong information from - see the article scrolling at the bottom of this forum page from the Cyprus Mail with the title 'Turkey guilty of human rights violaions. Committee for Missing Persons unable to lead effective investigations, EU court says.' Even the title is wrong. The ECHR is NOT an EU court.

Then it says 'The sole dissenting opinion was filed by Turkish Cypriot judge Gonul Basaran Eronen who was representing Turkey on the ECHR panel.' No he was NOT representing Turkey. He was an ECHR judge who happens to be Turkish/TC.

Since the reporter, Jean Christou, is also unlikely to have read the judgments my guess is that he is largely trasnscribing a government press release. The bulk of this case is not about Turkish agents having carried out the alleged killings (killing is an abuse the human right to life) but is about the alleged failure of Turkish authorities to investigate the disappearances of a number of people (the right to a fair investigation and trial is also a human right, as is the right to be free from cruel or degrading treatment)

[CopperLine]

DT

for gods sake Copperline...the council simply votes on a shortlist of 3 proposed by the state.

And ? What's your point ?

1. I repeat the state does not appoint, the CoE does
2. This process applies to all ECHR judges. There is nothing exceptional about Turkey or Turkish judges.
3. On other threads we've had people insisting on the independence and integrity of the CoE, and yet now the implication is that still Turkey can pack a court with its yes-men despite the CoE.

Yet again you guys think that by attacking the person you are striking at the heart of the issue. You are so mistaken. Have a look at the process, have a look at the procedure, have a look at the structures, have a look at the reasoning, have a look the context.


DT
I earlier responded to Nikitas about your comment regarding the list of Turkey cases before the ECHR. Basically I said, yes let's find what happens in others cases, especially Cyprus-related cases, and see what the evidence is for dissenting opinions. Somebody though has to trawl through the ECHR cases for the last nine years or so - will you volunteer ?

[DT.]

DT

for gods sake Copperline...the council simply votes on a shortlist of 3 proposed by the state.

And ? What's your point ?

1. I repeat the state does not appoint, the CoE does
2. This process applies to all ECHR judges. There is nothing exceptional about Turkey or Turkish judges.
3. On other threads we've had people insisting on the independence and integrity of the CoE, and yet now the implication is that still Turkey can pack a court with its yes-men despite the CoE.

Yet again you guys think that by attacking the person you are striking at the heart of the issue. You are so mistaken. Have a look at the process, have a look at the procedure, have a look at the structures, have a look at the reasoning, have a look the context.


DT
I earlier responded to Nikitas about your comment regarding the list of Turkey cases before the ECHR. Basically I said, yes let's find what happens in others cases, especially Cyprus-related cases, and see what the evidence is for dissenting opinions. Somebody though has to trawl through the ECHR cases for the last nine years or so - will you volunteer ?

my point is copperline that if Turkey proposed Rauf Denktash, Serdar Denktash and Eroglu as its 3 candidates the council would pick one of the 3.

[boomerang]

Pyropolizer, Boomerang
It is not rhetoric. It is not spin.

You can either take a serious look at the court proceedings and the different judicial opinons without prejudice, or you can be dismissive with prejudice. I can't stop you choosing the latter, I can't make you choose the former. But by choosing the latter you've simply confirmed everything that I've been arguing - you haven't read the case, you haven't approached without prejudice and you have concluded exactly what you assumed.

You can either pay serious attention to how courts work, how law develops and how judgments (not 'condemnations') are formed, or you can persist in your fantasy land in which what actually goes on in courts and how laws are interpreted and implemented is irrelevant to your prejudices about them.

You've assumed that I personally agree with dissenting Judge Eronen. But since I have not read his full opinion nor the full opinion of the other judges I'm simply not in a position to comment. Neither are you. But that hasn't stopped you mouthing off, quite literally, from sheer ignorance and prejudice.

You see Boomerang your outrage at me is based upon total ignorance of ECHR. You said

I understand that 6 judges came to the same conclusion and one appointed by the state in question

But this is just not true. ECHR judges are appointed through the Council of Europe, they are not state appointments. Go and have a look at the ECHR Convention - I've posted links to it enough times on this forum. Nobody who has bothered to read that document can come to the conclusion that judges 'are appointed by the state in question.' Here it is, again, from the ECHR website :

Judges are elected by the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, which votes on a shortlist of three candidates put forward by Governments. The term of office is six years, and judges may be re-elected. Their terms of office expire when they reach the age of seventy, although they continue to deal with cases already under their consideration.

Judges sit on the Court in their individual capacity and do not represent any State. They cannot engage in any activity which is incompatible with their independence or impartiality or with the demands of full-time office.

Please read it.

Strooth now I m gonna add wiggler to the you as well...I can't believe that you are so fucking thick...man you take the cake... this is you copperline....spin, spin, wiggle

Look its rather simple...6 judges, as clearly pointed by you, condemned turkey by their own interpretation...We are talking 6 individuals looking at the case from different angles...hence they came to the same conclussion...BLOODY GUILTY...

On the other hand we have a judge representing turkey, thats has seen the case, and seen none of the other 6 angles...now you get it?

Man I said before you are thick, but you take the cake...

Now I would like to see these different perceptions of the case that came to the same conclusion...The one that said no, who the hell cares, especially if he is representing turkey...

Now please no spin, spin, wiggle tactics...try and stay focused on what we are discussing...

PS...Now its a good time for you to come out and tell us if you are a TC or a turk...Not that means anything...just want to know as to who I am talking to...

[RAFAELLA]

pantheman wrote

Its like asking the wolf to guard the lambs.

This is exactly how TCs feel in Cyprus without the protection of our big brother Turkey. I doubt if we would be around for more than a week or 2.

That's why 100s of Tcs come to the free areas to work, that's why 100s of Tcs do their shopping from the free areas, etc, .... because they like being eaten alive!

[RAFAELLA]

European court rules against Turkey in missing Greek Cypriots case

The European Court of Human Rights has ruled against Turkey in a missing persons' case of several Greek Cypriots.

The ruling announced by the European court concerns a case that originated with nine claims against Turkey lodged with the European Commission of Human Rights in January 1990.
The applicants are 18 Greek Cypriot nationals, nine of whom have been considered missing since they were taken captive by the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) during military action in Cyprus in 1974. They have not been accounted for since. The other nine applicants are the parents or spouses of the missing applicants.

While dismissing the Turkish government's preliminary objections, the court held that there had been a continuing violation of Article 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights -- which says that everyone's right to life shall be protected by law -- on account of the failure of the Turkish authorities to conduct an effective investigation into the whereabouts and fate of Greek Cypriot missing persons who disappeared in life-threatening circumstances; that there had been a continuing violation of Article 5 of the convention -- which says that everyone has the right to liberty and security of person -- by virtue of the failure of the Turkish authorities to conduct an effective investigation into the whereabouts and fate of the Greek-Cypriot missing persons, in respect of whom there was an arguable claim that they were in Turkish custody at the time of their disappearance; and that there had been a continuing violation of Article 3 of the convention -- which says that no one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment -- in respect to the relatives of the Greek Cypriot missing persons.

Meanwhile, the Anatolia news agency reported from Strasbourg that Turkish officials have been preparing to appeal the ruling. After receiving the official appeal by Turkey, a six-judge chamber will decide whether the case will be referred to the 17-member Grand Chamber. Officials at the Foreign Ministry in Ankara were not available for comment when approached by Today's Zaman on Thursday afternoon.

The court's ruling is the first such ruling concerning Greek Cypriots' complaints over missing persons; thus it has a significant importance since it may set a precedent for similar cases opened against Turkey.

The ruling was made with six votes to one as Gönül Başaran Erönen, Turkish member of the seven-member chamber, stated a different opinion.

The court also held by six votes to one that Turkey is to pay the applicants within three months from the date on which the judgment becomes final the amount of 4,000 euros per application for costs and expenses, plus any taxes that may be applicable.

According to the United Nations, 1,468 Greek Cypriots and 502 Turkish Cypriots are still listed as missing from inter-communal violence in 1963-64 and from the 1974 Turkish intervention. Unlike the Turkish Cypriot north, the Greek Cypriot south refuses to declare its missing as dead -- a point the north calls "purely political," but which Greek Cypriots insist is for humanitarian reasons.

11.01.2008
Today's Zaman Ankara
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do load=detay&link=131386

I wonder if Gönül Başaran Erönen is aware of the European Convention on Human Rights. If not, then why the hell is warming up a chair at ECHR?
It obvious why she didn't find TR guilty and I believe that this is something that should worries ECHR.

[CopperLine]

DT

Three questions.

1. The Denktash x2 and Eroglu weren't proposed. Why not ? If you are arguing that the CoE is forced to take the least worst of a bad bunch, then doesn't your principle apply to every other shortlist of every other signatory state ? If so, is your argument that the ECHR is just composed of a bunch of lousy second rate politically driven judges ? Is that the kind of Court that has just issued the Vardovas judgement ?
2. Are you suggesting that Turkey should not be allowed to offer a list of judges, but that other ECHR convention countries can still offer a list of judges ?
3. Is your objection one against how judges are appointed to the ECHR and how the ECHR operates as a court (of which Turkish judges are but one part) or are you objecting to the opinion of this judge who happens to be Turkish ?

[humanist]

gee weez Turkey has been found guilty of vioaltion of human rights ............ so what says Turkey, like its the first time. I wonder if the international community can come up with a strategy to get Turkey out, or whether the courts are just mouthing withourt a purpose.

[RAFAELLA]

Turkey hopes Grand Chamber will correct ruling on missing Cypriots

Monday, January 14, 2008
ANKARA – Turkish Daily News

Turkey remains hopeful that the Grand Chamber will view favorably its appeal of the top European court's recent ruling in a case revolving around nine Greek Cypriots missing since 1974.

The Grand Chamber is the appeals body of the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR).

“The Chamber may rule that these nine Greek Cypriots, 30 years after their disappearance, can no longer be considered missing persons and should be ‘presumed dead,' in line with the rationa temporis principle of international law,” said one Turkish diplomat, who asked not to be identified.

According to this principle, a court may allow the families of missing persons to initiate legal procedures, such as those required for inheritance, on the assumption that the missing are no longer alive.

“In our case, more than 30 years have passed since their disappearance,” the official said. “That means the Chamber should reverse its ruling. However it is a very complicated and technical issue. The Court, itself, is confused on this case.”

The EHCR Thursday ruled that Turkey violated the right to life of nine Cypriots by failing to investigate their disappearance during its 1974 intervention in northern Cyprus. The decision represents the EHCR's final ruling on the case, which the missing persons' relatives filed in 1990.

The Cypriots went missing after being apprehended by Turkish forces during the military intervention that left the Mediterranean island split into ethnic Greek and Turkish sectors.

By a 6-1 vote, judges at the Strasbourg-based court ruled that "there had been a continuous violation of Article 2 (right to life) of the European Convention on Human Rights resulting from Turkey's failure to conduct an effective investigation into the whereabouts and fate" of the nine Cypriots.http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=93579

“The Chamber may rule that these nine Greek Cypriots, 30 years after their disappearance, can no longer be considered missing persons and should be ‘presumed dead
The majority of these 9 missing persons were captured by the Turkish army and were transfered to Adana prisons. Therefore, Tr is responsible to give information regarding their fate and also explain how these people "disappeared".
...and why a person who was 19-20 years old in 1974 should be considered dead after 30 years. What has Tr done with these people?

[halil]

Debates are continuing on the European Court of Human Rights’ decision against Turkey on the issue of missing persons in Cyprus.

The ECHR’s latest verdict on the case Varnava and others said Turkey violated the European Convention on Human Rights on the issue of missing persons and at the same time the Greek Cypriots’ demand for compensation was rejected.

If Turkey does not appeal against the ECHR’s verdict on the Varnava and others case, the verdict will gain its certainty within 3 months.

Evaluating the verdict to the TAK News Agency, former Attorney General Zaim Necatigil stated that the principles used while viewing the cases on Greek Cypriot missing persons were not applied in cases brought on Turkish Cypriot missing persons.

Pointing out that the Turkish Cypriot applications which were brought to the ECHR in 2001 on missing persons were rejected by the Court by presenting the deadline as a reason, Mr Necatigil said `if there is a violation of deadline, then this should be applied to both sides. There is a deadline for all applicants or for none`.