Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

fewwww ... I am glad I exploded in the other topic otherwise I would add to the spoiling of this really fine topic started by my friend Birkibrisli.
Some quick comments first:

a)There's one specific person who never realized that this is a narrative topic to which people could add/correct/ input their own versions and or comments IF APPLICABLE.That specific person spent hundreds of words fighting the issues (as if he felt compelled to disagree with everything) and accusing Bir that the GCs do not put their own version down! Whereas on 99% of the narrative there was not any other version to put down anyway ...

b)Babel really started when Eric started pouring his TMT hatred poison as usual

and
c) Babel continued upto this very point with another scapegoat.

Bir, as I said in the other topic I really admire the empathy and patience you can show to everyone. Congrats man, you really deserve it.

Now my input on the "didn't help" request (I guess I will be No 4 after deniz'es one liner)
It is really difficult for me to start with the words "it didn't help". I prefer the words "the wrong-doings"
Well was there any right doing from any side on the first place? The answer is clearly NO. I don't see anything that the Cypriots did right starting from the 50s until 1974.
But anyway as a GC I am supposed to speak for the wrong-doings of the GCs. I will speak for the 60s-70s cause I know nothing from before

a)For the majority of GCs the TCs not only didn't count but they didn't exist either. They were some rebels hidden in their enclaves, who cares about them?
b)Total lack of knowledge of what was going on and how life was for the TCs. 25,000 TC refugees (1 out of 5) concentrated in enclaves abandoning their villages living like gypsies and nobody really knew or cared about it.
c)While the Standard of living of the GCs was doubling every year after independence, the Standard of living of the TCs was more or less stagnated, if not getting lower.
d)State orchestrated plan to cause as many difficulties as possible to have the TCs abandon the place. This in modern language is called "attempted ethnic cleaning".
e)I don't consider the number of casualties during those years as important as d above. But to the heart of the average TC they had the most major impact.
f)Makarios, his Ministers, the vast majority of GC officials never hagged the TC community with love and respect, and never tried to make them one of us, and make them our little weak brother that needed help. Teachers in schools, priests, and our enlightened ones never educated the masses in this direction. On the contrary they were educating them the opposite.
g)The church instilled our souls too much hatred for everything non Christian Orthodox. Even the Jehovan witnesses were portraited to us like devil. Imagine the Turks who were mouslim. I believe if the TCs were not in Cyprus, the ethnic troubles would be GCs Vs the Maronites.

NB. these are just my add ons to what Piratis has said.

[Jerry]

You are absolutely right Pyrpolizer and Piritas in what you say about the attitude of GCs to TCs in the 60s but don't forget these enclaved Cypriots were the seen as the descendants of the Ottomans who had oppressed Cyprus for centuries and whose presence on the island had resulted in visits from Turkish warplanes. The mistake the Government made was in not differentiating between local and mainland Turks, and encouraging the majority to do the same. The 60s was a waiting game, would most TCs leave to seek better lives abroad or would the Greek Cypriots do something stupid and open the door to Turkey. There were leaders on both sides who believed that given enough time they would gain the upper hand, not unlike the situation we have today.

[Pyrpolizer]

Like I said Jerry just tell me one thing any of the 2 sides did right back then. Nothing man, all wrongs one after the other....

[Viewpoint]

I don't hate Greek Cypriots, I don't trust them that I accept but don't mix the 2 because they are totally different, I wouldn't expect you to understand.

Well VP, when you make statements that
"you don't want Greek spoken around you and around your children",
begs to differ with your above claim.

I stand by what I say and I am sure there are GCs who feel the same about raising their children in an environment where Turkish is predominanetly spoken. If I wanted that I would move to Greece.

[Viewpoint]

All forum members take note how this person twists turns and squirms trying to deflect attention from answering questions, when challenged about his lies.

Keep worming Mr Greek Cypriot.

I hope the Forum members will not take any note, or else they will discover what a anti Greek Cypriot and a Racist idiot you are....

Oops, too late VP. Apparently you were discovered to be the above long long time ago.!!

Another deflection off the real subject, your lies, keep squirming it makes good entertainment.

A racist for calling you a Greek Cypriot, whats so racist about that, are you ashamed of being classed in the same league and in unison with your brothers?

If I were a GC, no problem, but since I'm not and you know full well that I'm not, by saying that I'm in a vindictive fashion, is what makes you a Racist and Greek Cypriot Hating Bigot, that you really, really are.

Do you have anymore excuses you would like for me to explain to you, you Greek Cypriot Hater.

For me you are a GC, you constnatly run TCs and the TRNC into the ground and you have nothing to do with my community so for me and I am sure many others you are nothing more that a pure GC, which if you feel is an insult then thats your problem.

[Natty]

Natty said:

"This thread is really fascinating reading, thank you Bir for starting it..

Nikitas I'm interested to know what your opinion is of Makarios?"

Yes, thank you Bir.

I am afraid my opinion of Makarios is not flattering to the man. He was first and foremost a priest, and not just any priest but a monk, with the characteristics that the job entails- self denial, self discipline, deep belief in the divine order and I suspect a belief in his divine destiny which was to unite Cyprus with Greece.

Makarios failed to respect the state of Cyprus. Sounds odd, but the evidence is there and I am not referring to the oft quoted speeches about Enosis that TC members like to quote. desire for Enosis does not preclude respect for your state. Details like handing over control of the National Guard to Greek officers, are a sign of lack of respect for the state.

Failing to understand the way in which states in general function and plan their course is the Makarios way. He could not perceive that Turkey is a state with long standing policies that were put in place years before and would be pursued for years to come, the same goes for the UK, the USA and Greece. He could not understand that you cannot counter such national policies with faith in the justice of your cause alone. Nor could he accept that Greece might have malevolent intentions towards Cyprus.

He did not understand military power either. The combination of these two traits are embodied in the orders given to the Tactical Reserve Force who were keeping an eye on the mainland Greek officers in 1974. They were withdrawn every morning at 6. He could not understand that tanks can be started and driven after 6 am! Nor did he believe that Greece would move against him when he challenged them with that letter of his asking for the officers to be recalled. He did not see Greece as a state with its own plans for Cyprus and for him.

He was incapable of accepting rejection. There is a book by his confidential secretary which was briefly circulated and then withdrawn. She describes how he pitied politicians who had to fight close elections. He was happy to enter elections where his share would be crushing. Had there been a candidate who could really rival him the chances are that Makarios would have withdrawn from politics.

On the plus side there is no doubt that he loved GCs and did a lot for them. I remember life before 1960 when most GCs were subsistence farmers and lived a hand to mouth existence. It was Makarios and the ministers he chose who encouraged cash crop farming and established an efficient administration that returned a lot of benefits to the people. But he loved GCs, there was not equal care for the benefits to TCs, not even during the 1967-73 period. Had there been equivalent steps to encourage TC prosperity in those years things might be different today.

Personally I find this attitude to the TCs baffling for a man of God and twice as confusing for a Cypriot. You would think that he would find the economic plight of the TCs, a considerable part of the Cypriot population, embarassing at least. Instead the hardship was used as a means to pressure the TCs and thus made them pay for the hardline tactics used by Denktash. Which brings us back to his inability to understand the function of a state. He was more a tribal leader than a president.

Hi Nikitas, thank you for your detailed responce. Sorry that it’s taken me so long to reply, I haven’t visited the forum for a while. I suppose you could say that I come from your average Greek Cypriot family with very average political views. My immediate family at least supported EOKA and therefore Enosis during the 50's, then supported independence and Makarios during the 60's and were very Anti Junta/ EOKA B. I've never really discussed with my family how they felt Makarios did on a political level, so it’s interesting to read other peoples opinions of him. I am no expert on the policies of Makarios, I’m definitely still learning about the events of the past, but as far as I can tell he refused to play ball to what the super powers wanted for Cyprus, and for that I respect him, but since reading more about him I'm starting to believe that maybe he wasn't the best man for the ‘top job‘ so to speak. As you say, a good spiritual leader yes, but a good political leader? I don’t know…

I have to say that I've read so many conflicting views on how the TC's were treated by Makarios that it's an aspect of the history of the Cyprus problem that really confuses me. For example I'm told that after 1967 Makarios did help some TC's who were coming out of the enclaves, but then again I'm also told that he's aim was to oppress the TC's and, on an extreme level rid the Island of them. I'd really like to know more about what you of think about this? And more about how you feel Makarios could have helped the TC community? I'd also like if you could explain more about what you mean when you say that the economic hardship the TC community was living in was used as a means to pressure them?

And no, I did not support Grivas as the alternative to Makarios

Don't worry, I never thought you were a Grivas man, somehow you don't seem the type...

[Nikitas]

Natty,

Makarios will be one of those personalities that will divide historians for years to come. The key for me is the tribal aspect, and that about sums it up for me.

His treatment of the TCs baffles me. He was an intelligent man, so he must have realised their situation- caught between Denktash and the TMT on one side and the callousness of the Republic on the other who treated them as mutineers, but there were no bold moves to bring them back into the mainstream of Cypriot life. When Turkey invaded and the TCs were gathered in the Episcopi base waiting to be taken north, he appeared in his presidential limo and tried to address them. It was too little and more than too late, the people nearly stoned him and he left obviously pissed off. Reaching out to them was one of the things he ought to have done ten years earlier.

In some ways I think Denktash envied Makarios. I saw an interview on BBC (if I remember) where Denktash spoke in awe of Makarios' self discipline. During an eight hour meeting Denktash and the UN envoy sent out for orange juice and sandwiches several times. They went to the bathroom at times. Makarios sat in his chair and did not move, eating and drinking nothing. A true monastic soul used to going 40 days without substantial food, eight hours must have been a picnic!

[Natty]

Hi Pypolizer, I have to say I agree with most of what you wrote, but there are a some of your opinions that I have a few questions about...

d)State orchestrated plan to cause ot getting lower. as many difficulties as possible to have the TCs abandon the place. This in modern language is called "attempted ethnic cleaning".

What do you think this state orchestrated plan involved? What were the difficulties faced by the TC's?

f)Makarios, his Ministers, the vast majority of GC officials never hagged the TC community with love and respect, and never tried to make them one of us, and make them our little weak brother that needed help. Teachers in schools, priests, and our enlightened ones never educated the masses in this direction. On the contrary they were educating them the opposite.

From reading your previous posts I know that you grew up in Cyprus during this period, so I'd love to know more about how you were educated to view the TC community? When learning about the past, I don't think it gets much better that reading peoples personal experiences. Also do you think that the way the GC's viewed the TC's during this period would have differed in any way if the constitution had been different and if the TC extremists were not following a partition plan?

g)The church instilled our souls too much hatred for everything non Christian Orthodox. Even the Jehovan witnesses were portraited to us like devil. Imagine the Turks who were mouslim. I believe if the TCs were not in Cyprus, the ethnic troubles would be GCs Vs the Maronites

Thankfully I have never come across a priest that showed such extreme views, but again I’d like to know more about your own personal experiences of the church clergy during the troubled era of the 60's. Would there have been another 'ethnic conflict' in Cyprus, if there wasn’t a TC community? It's an intriguing thought, but I'm not entirely sure I believe there would have been. However I'm interested to know more about why you feel the opposite?

I'd also like to add on another wrong doing of our community...

h) The Government put military blockades on the TC enclaves, but it seems the blockades became something more, making the conditions in the enclaves hard for the TC occupants. I believe that it was some sort of 'scare tactic' used by the Government to scare the TC's out, but from what I can see it only made things worse...

[Pyrpolizer]

Hi Pypolizer, I have to say I agree with most of what you wrote, but there are a some of your opinions that I have a few questions about...

d)State orchestrated plan to cause ot getting lower. as many difficulties as possible to have the TCs abandon the place. This in modern language is called "attempted ethnic cleaning".

What do you think this state orchestrated plan involved? What were the difficulties faced by the TC's?

f)Makarios, his Ministers, the vast majority of GC officials never hagged the TC community with love and respect, and never tried to make them one of us, and make them our little weak brother that needed help. Teachers in schools, priests, and our enlightened ones never educated the masses in this direction. On the contrary they were educating them the opposite.

From reading your previous posts I know that you grew up in Cyprus during this period, so I'd love to know more about how you were educated to view the TC community? When learning about the past, I don't think it gets much better that reading peoples personal experiences. Also do you think that the way the GC's viewed the TC's during this period would have differed in any way if the constitution had been different and if the TC extremists were not following a partition plan?

g)The church instilled our souls too much hatred for everything non Christian Orthodox. Even the Jehovan witnesses were portraited to us like devil. Imagine the Turks who were mouslim. I believe if the TCs were not in Cyprus, the ethnic troubles would be GCs Vs the Maronites

Thankfully I have never come across a priest that showed such extreme views, but again I’d like to know more about your own personal experiences of the church clergy during the troubled era of the 60's. Would there have been another 'ethnic conflict' in Cyprus, if there wasn’t a TC community? It's an intriguing thought, but I'm not entirely sure I believe there would have been. However I'm interested to know more about why you feel the opposite?

I'd also like to add on another wrong doing of our community...

h) The Government put military blockades on the TC enclaves, but it seems the blockades became something more, making the conditions in the enclaves hard for the TC occupants. I believe that it was some sort of 'scare tactic' used by the Government to scare the TC's out, but from what I can see it only made things worse...

Hi Natty,

To tell you the truth I wasn't that old then to have a real understanding of the world around me. My father was forcing me to read the newspaper every day and tell him what I understood. Well I wasn't understanding much

My grandfather had some "suspicious" background. He was one of 7 orphans and grew up in the streets of a complex of villages when his father got re-married. The "suspicion" about him was that he received Turkish education, I mean he could speak, write and read in Turkish but he could not do so in Greek. He never revealed how was that. When I was a little boy by grandpa was one of the few Greeks who dared cross to the Turkish sector and meet with his friends give me a hair cut at TC barbers etc. When the borders opened I recognised all the places he was taking me...

Anyway when I started having some understanding of the word around me I started wondering where are the Turks of Cyprus and how was it I couldn't easily see as many as when my grandpa was alive. At that stage I started getting some understanding as to what happened to the Turks of Cyprus.
At some stage I learned that it was extremely difficult for a Turk to transfer his lands and properties to another Turk in Cyprus. Probably I learned that from newspapers probably from one of the few TCs by family had contacts -I don't remember. This was my first let's say reaction against this state. When I grew older I got the details fully. There were too many obstacles at the government level for anything a TC would try to do to advance either economically or socially. For example when the Cypriots started exporting fresh produce by air there was clear discrimination against the TCs at the airport and delaying tactics so that the products of TCs would rote and become non-exportable.

I don't remember if that was when the TCs started having their policy from "Turk to a Turk", but imo this policy was countered at government level to either "from Turk to a Greek" or "nothing".
Evil actions from both sides and the one who suffered the most of course was the weaker TC community.

I will continue later as lunch is waiting....

[Pyrpolizer]

From reading your previous posts I know that you grew up in Cyprus during this period, so I'd love to know more about how you were educated to view the TC community? When learning about the past, I don't think it gets much better that reading peoples personal experiences. Also do you think that the way the GC's viewed the TC's during this period would have differed in any way if the constitution had been different and if the TC extremists were not following a partition plan?

How education influences kids. It is like a movie dear Natty when you have to associate with the good guys (the heros) and reject the bad guys. My first bad guy/enemy were the Persians. Until 3rd grade in Elementary school we were taught about Alexander the Great and his wars with the Persians. History was such a fascinating lesson back then and like I said it was like watching a movie.I could hardly wait for the next episode. We had only one teacher those years an extremely beautiful blondie from mainland Greece. I think at the 6th grade we started learning about Greece under the Ottomans and a new bad guy started emerging, the Turks. Until I graduated the elementary school I was so confused that I thought the Persians and the Turks were the same thing!! At high school we were doing all sorts of international and European history including of course the period of Greece under the Ottoman Turks. As all our books were coming from Greece believe it or not we were taught almost nothing about Cyprus’s history. In this respect we were taught nothing about the TC’s. I personally was confused from school history as to who our "national" enemies were. Were they the Persians, the Arabs, the Turks, the Bulgarians??? I knew the TCs were Turks but somehow the image I had for them contadicted the image I got from school history about the Ottoman era.Imagine the image one gets when he hears how the Turks pronged Athnasios Dhiakos compared with the Turks he met in real life in Cyprus. Barbaians on one side, plain easy and calm people on the other.

Now regarding your question as to what if the consitution was different. That wouldn’t be enough imo. Sooner or later we would scrab it and do Enosis. There were 3 wrongs:The constitution, our desire for Enosis and TCs desire for taksim. If all these 3 were different, even if the TCs would start with simple minority rights, the situation would evolve until today to the point that the TCs would get subtantial political rights, key positions in the Government, and be the regulating factor for all political decissions. Probably they would even elect a president for at least one term considering how pissed of we are today with all those GC Presidents we had.

Thankfully I have never come across a priest that showed such extreme views, but again I’d like to know more about your own personal experiences of the church clergy during the troubled era of the 60's. Would there have been another 'ethnic conflict' in Cyprus, if there wasn’t a TC community? It's an intriguing thought, but I'm not entirely sure I believe there would have been. However I'm interested to know more about why you feel the opposite?

Well the previous generation were very relegious. They were creating their own enemies based on relegion. It was not the priests who were doing it it was the people themselves. When the Jehovan witnesses started showing up in the early 70s and then the Children of God they were almost viewed as the devil himself. I have no doubt the mouslim relegion was viewed as something beyond hell. Do you know that until today there are people who have stickers on their doors saying "we do not wish to have visits from Jehovan witnesses. If you are one please leave".

Now here’s a little secret. We did not have problems with only the TCs before 1974. The Maronites were treated bad as well. It was AFTER 1974 when they realized they can’t have two enemies. I remember very well how they started employing Maronites in much greater proportions than their population in the Government AFTER 1974. Up until today there is preferential treatment to the Maronites as a matter of fact. So slowly slowly they became one of us, but it was not always like that. Imo if the TCs were not in Cypus we would chose the Maronites to kick out of Cyprus.
On a side note as you know the Maronites are Catholics and according to their releigion they CANNOT GET A DIVORCE. (until death takes us apart, remember?). There is too much adultery going on among the Maronites from this simple fact, and the GCs, racist peasants as we always were, tend to generalise and say all Maronite women are prostitudes.
As for the Armenians the situation was different I mean they were always very dynamic and much richer than the average Cypriot, so they were always prevailing without much need for any political power or government jobs.