Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

Zan,

If Turkey had no interest in Cyprus why the clandestine importation of arms? Why the continuing teaching of invasion tactics in the Turkish military academies? Things are not set up unless they are intended ot be used.

The policy was locked in and is still there. Turkey is undergoing a crisis now because all these policies it has clash with EU requirements. The military in Turkey have a special position in the country. There is no other country in the EU hat affords the military the same participation in government as Turkey. If this system does not change the policy in Cyprus will stay the same.

The phrase "deep state" is not a foreign invention, Turks themselves coined it and use it often.

Where do you get all this rubbish....Turkey never invented anything you say and then pile on all the negative invention For god sake, listen to yourself will you



Defence is not there to be used unless attacked....Is that something you understand???????Turkey was n Cyprus before and after the Zurich agreement...It had no reason to take all of Cyprus. It certainly had no money or resources as we are constantly told by you guys.....You can't have it all ways....

[zan]

Your interpretations against ACTUAL reports of the day on the day.....

Can you guys tell me whether the 9/11 attacks were a conspiracy...In your opinion???

From: WASHINGTON POST, 16.02.1964 ARTICLE BY ROBERT H. ESTABROOK
"...Archbishop Makarios, robed adn bearded cleric who serves as President of Cyprus, has a Byzantine talent for equitation....his Government deliberately provoked the clashes and is bent upon the extermination of the Turkish population..."

From; EVENING POST, 15.1.1964 REPORTED BY JOHN WHITE FROM NICOSIA, CYPRUS
Background to the London Conference

"This week 2,000 miles from that dusty Cypriot road, men are meeting round a table in london to try to sort out the tragedy of Cyprus. Their aim will be to find a solution to a problem which has produced wide-spread murder, arson, looting and kidnapping. It is profoundly to be hoped they discover such a solution. But very few people I met in Cyprus last week have much faith in this painfully arranged Conference. As the Greek Cypriot taxi man who drove me around Nicosia said: "The conference will solve nothing. It is just words."

When I asked him for his solution he said "If the Turks want to stay - O.K. But they can't have any rights. they should not have the good jobs. They are the minority and must do what we say."

"Some Greeks are more extremist than the taxi man. They don't merely wish to deprive the Turks of all rights. They want to deprive them of the right to live. I have heard men say all Turks should die and these were men with nervous trigger fingers."

" Many Greek and Turkish Cypriots are embittered - understandably - and some are apparently resigned to everlasting conflict. 'I would like to live peaceably with the Greeks' said one Turk, 'But I do not see how it can be done.' Possibly he spoke for many others."

"The British Army in Cyprus have been playing a most difficult role. One of their jobs has been to try and build confidence between Greeks and Turks."

"Last Thursday hundreds of soldiers were drafted into a suburb of Nicosia to safeguard Turkish families coming back to their homes and 'restore confidence'. I saw more Turks going than coming back. As one of them said 'My four your old daughter was shot by my next door neighbor. I don't want to return and be killed.'.."

Zan...I am still back in January,1958.
Why don't you comment on what I am writing,and fill in the gaps if you see any??? What is one-sided about what I am writing? I am retelling historical events after all...

History is written by the victor...You seem to think that your thinking is the victor so ...........

And again you are contradicting ourself....Why ask others, and now me again, to fill in the gaps if you are telling history as it is....What F****g gaps if you are telling it is. till we are only getting the GCs that are jumping on the bandwagon that you are pulling with a nose wring on and no GC purging of the spirit. If you just want a pat on the back...then.....Yasa be yegen.......Or where you not serious when you asked for this team spirit.....

[denizaksulu]

Your interpretations against ACTUAL reports of the day on the day.....

Can you guys tell me whether the 9/11 attacks were a conspiracy...In your opinion???

From: WASHINGTON POST, 16.02.1964 ARTICLE BY ROBERT H. ESTABROOK
"...Archbishop Makarios, robed adn bearded cleric who serves as President of Cyprus, has a Byzantine talent for equitation....his Government deliberately provoked the clashes and is bent upon the extermination of the Turkish population..."

From; EVENING POST, 15.1.1964 REPORTED BY JOHN WHITE FROM NICOSIA, CYPRUS
Background to the London Conference

"This week 2,000 miles from that dusty Cypriot road, men are meeting round a table in london to try to sort out the tragedy of Cyprus. Their aim will be to find a solution to a problem which has produced wide-spread murder, arson, looting and kidnapping. It is profoundly to be hoped they discover such a solution. But very few people I met in Cyprus last week have much faith in this painfully arranged Conference. As the Greek Cypriot taxi man who drove me around Nicosia said: "The conference will solve nothing. It is just words."

When I asked him for his solution he said "If the Turks want to stay - O.K. But they can't have any rights. they should not have the good jobs. They are the minority and must do what we say."

"Some Greeks are more extremist than the taxi man. They don't merely wish to deprive the Turks of all rights. They want to deprive them of the right to live. I have heard men say all Turks should die and these were men with nervous trigger fingers."

" Many Greek and Turkish Cypriots are embittered - understandably - and some are apparently resigned to everlasting conflict. 'I would like to live peaceably with the Greeks' said one Turk, 'But I do not see how it can be done.' Possibly he spoke for many others."

"The British Army in Cyprus have been playing a most difficult role. One of their jobs has been to try and build confidence between Greeks and Turks."

"Last Thursday hundreds of soldiers were drafted into a suburb of Nicosia to safeguard Turkish families coming back to their homes and 'restore confidence'. I saw more Turks going than coming back. As one of them said 'My four your old daughter was shot by my next door neighbor. I don't want to return and be killed.'.."

Zan...I am still back in January,1958.
Why don't you comment on what I am writing,and fill in the gaps if you see any??? What is one-sided about what I am writing? I am retelling historical events after all...

History is written by the victor...You seem to think that your thinking is the victor so ...........

And again you are contradicting ourself....Why ask others, and now me again, to fill in the gaps if you are telling history as it is....What F****g gaps if you are telling it is. till we are only getting the GCs that are jumping on the bandwagon that you are pulling with a nose wring on and no GC purging of the spirit. If you just want a pat on the back...then.....Yasa be yegen.......Or where you not serious when you asked for this team spirit.....

[Nikitas]

Zan likes to keep scores, so he posted the figures:

"According to Purcell (1969:270-, 293) of the 287 Greek Cypriots killed during
1955-60, 60 died at the hands of Turkish Cypriots,106 were killed by the security forces and at least 112 by EOKA (with a possible maximum of 200), while 84 Turkish Cypriots were killed by Greek Cypriots and 7 by the British. "

Zan you forgot the TCs killed by TMT in your tally. Intentionally or by accident?

[Nikitas]

Deniz

"Greece has 'changed' since joining the EU. If and when Turkey joins, do you think Turkeys attitude would change? Or would Turkey remain as 'obstinate' as it is now?"

The answer is yes. The EU, for all its failings, has some minimum standards. The participation of the military in politics is a European wide taboo. If it happened in Greece then it can happen in Turkey.

In Greece, after the Imia crisis, the chief of the armed forces was summarily dismissed. It is unthinkable now that Erdogan could summon Bouyoukanit to his office and dismiss him. In the EU it would not be. Prhaps this accounts for the resistance the deep state is showing towards the EU.

[zan]

Zan likes to keep scores, so he posted the figures:

"According to Purcell (1969:270-, 293) of the 287 Greek Cypriots killed during
1955-60, 60 died at the hands of Turkish Cypriots,106 were killed by the security forces and at least 112 by EOKA (with a possible maximum of 200), while 84 Turkish Cypriots were killed by Greek Cypriots and 7 by the British. "

Zan you forgot the TCs killed by TMT in your tally. Intentionally or by accident?

I was sure that you or Bir would "Fill in the gaps".......More sure than Bir anyway.....

[Nikitas]

Zan asks:

"Where do you get all this rubbish....Turkey never invented anything you say and then pile on all the negative invention For god sake, listen to yourself will you "

regarding the clandestine import of arms and its intentions about Cyprus.

Well at university in London I happened to have a fellow student who was one of the volunteer officers from Turkey who fought in Kokkina. He gave me information about the armaments they used and they were not the cheap shotguns often portrayed here. THe assault by the Greek army units and the Cypriot irregulars were stopped with concentrated heavy machine gun fire. THe arms had been stockpiled there for months before, landed by submarine. He too was landed by submarine.

In other parts of this forum there have been posts about the role of the British in giving arms to the TCs during the 1963-68 period. A trade that culminated in the death of a British intelligence officer.

The plans for Cyprus are in numerous statements made by Turkish Generals and officials every time they refer to the strategic importance of Cyprus to Turkey and not allowing it to fall in enemy hands. Having already defined the GCs as enemies what do you think these statements mean?

When Gul (as foreign minister) said his goal was to end GC sovereignty the interpretation is that he wants the dissolution of Cyprus, why?

[T_C]

The thing about BK is that he sometimes seems toooo desperate and I just wish he'd go to the north and see that the people are NOT not desperate for a solution AT ALL! Reading Sener Levent articles doesn't give you a clear enough picture I'm afraid, while I agree he's an admirable man, he's made his name by going against the TRNC and thats all he can do. If he's not doing that then who would Sener Levent be? Would the GCs buy his work if it's not anti-TRNC?!?!?

It's like Kikapu whos made a name for himself on the forum for being on the GC side. The other day I was reading this section of the forum where Phoenix wrote one of her anti-T-TC essays, Kikapu came in..completely ignored phoenix (like he does with EVERY bit of abuse we recieve) and jumped straight into starting an argument with VP.

And even though I don't agree with BKs strategy most of the time, I do have more respect for him because I can see that he's doing it for the over all good of everyone in Cyprus which is fine by me. BUT like Kikapu he has a tendency to feel no way about scolding TCs but come GCs turn he quivers in the corner or tries to diffuse the situation quick which absolutely sucks! It's like he's treding on egg shells and it's enough to show me that HE KNOWS (maybe even subconciously) that he cannot afford to go against GCs no matter how right he is. Theres been many times where BK could of gone on to make his point and instead has opted to keep quiet so as not to upset the GCs. I've said this before but it's these types of actions that are putting the GCs on a pedastal and while they think that they're doing the right thing by arguing with partitionists they're failing the WHOLE of the TC community by doing so.

The partitionists just don't trust the GCs...it's as simple as that and sorry to let you know but MOST TCs deep down are partitionists. They are not "Turks", the Turks are the "annexationists", the partitionists simply do not trust the GC government. The GCs want the North so badly that they will say and do ANYTHING HUMANLY POSSIBLE to get it back, which is why it's not as easy believing the things they say about "unifying" and which is WHY they're always asking for safeguards!

And by the way, I ask again, why is it so hard for people to understand that WE DO NOT TRUST A GC GOVERNMENT!!!! No matter what anyone says or what documents you put infront of us, after all thats happened we do not trust the GC government! It's understandable for GCs not to trust TCs but is it so hard to understand that WE DON'T TRUST THEM?!?!? Someone PLEASE explain that to me?!?

I'm sorry but it gets really tiresome while we tell people that WE DO NOT TRUST THE GC GOVERNMENT...and they keep trying go round the corners and ignoring one of the most important issues. The TCs DO NOT want to be governed by Greek Cypriots just as much as the GCs don't want to be governed by TCs. ITS AS SIMPLE AS THAT, IT WORKS BOTH WAYS and it's NOT a one sided affair so you can't just blame the TCs for not wanting that.

If theres a TC (other than BK and Kikapu) who wouldn't mind being governed by a GC government then PLEASE PLEASE speak out.

[zan]

Zan asks:

"Where do you get all this rubbish....Turkey never invented anything you say and then pile on all the negative invention For god sake, listen to yourself will you "

regarding the clandestine import of arms and its intentions about Cyprus.

Well at university in London I happened to have a fellow student who was one of the volunteer officers from Turkey who fought in Kokkina. He gave me information about the armaments they used and they were not the cheap shotguns often portrayed here. THe assault by the Greek army units and the Cypriot irregulars were stopped with concentrated heavy machine gun fire. THe arms had been stockpiled there for months before, landed by submarine. He too was landed by submarine.

In other parts of this forum there have been posts about the role of the British in giving arms to the TCs during the 1963-68 period. A trade that culminated in the death of a British intelligence officer.

The plans for Cyprus are in numerous statements made by Turkish Generals and officials every time they refer to the strategic importance of Cyprus to Turkey and not allowing it to fall in enemy hands. Having already defined the GCs as enemies what do you think these statements mean?

When Gul (as foreign minister) said his goal was to end GC sovereignty the interpretation is that he wants the dissolution of Cyprus, why?

I had a friend that said that all that was rubbish but there you go


Assuming that all that is true.......Megali idea....ENOSIS...Armed struggle......Does that have any significance to what was going on or are you going to constantly keep denying that the response to these were justified. You have already tried to dismiss the fact that ENOSIS was a goal of he GCs and Piratis gave you an example of the vote where 93% voted for ENOSIS. Makarios swore an oath to ENOSIS. Then you go on about some surplus weapons from Greece and ask us to swallow that hook line and sinker......Turkey didn't need those arms you infer on either...... How about the surplus general and the surplus tanks and the surplus soldiers........For gods sake

[Nikitas]

I did not deny that ENosis was the goal in the 50s. What I tried to do was to put in the context of the time: post WWII at a time of decolonisation, by a community that did not have much direct iknowledge of what it wanted to unite with, nor any chance to debate the alternatives.

Megali Idea was an imperial dream definitively defeated in 1923. It was of another time and had nothing to do with the Enosis movement of Cyprus. You only need to think a little to see this. How many people in the outskirts of Ankara voted to be united with Greece in 1919? Was there a plebiscite in Asia Minor asking the Greeks there if they wanted to unite with Greece? In Cyprus on the other hand 93 per cent of GCs, or 75 per cent of the total population chose Enosis.

In Megali Idea you had a series of wars, not just one, between states, in Cyprus there was a guerrilla campaign which Greece supported in a weak and indirect way. There was not a single mainland Greek fighting with EOKA.

Comparing the dream of Megali Idea with the Enosis movement is a manufactured assertion that has no bearing on reality.

My eyewitness friend at university was there with a scholarship from the Turkish foreign ministry. I think he is a reliable source as to the facts he mentioned. He is corroborated by BBC newsreels which clearly show machineguns firing from Kokkina. And also by British military reports of the time. I have them somewhere and will retrieve them for you when I have the time.