zan wrote:Tim Drayton wrote:Birkibrisli wrote:zan wrote:Birkibrisli wrote:Zan wrote:Birkibrisli to Piratis' rescue once again
You started off by telling us that you could only put the TC side of the story and that others should put forward the GC side...Apart from Nikitas, who is more interested in saving face and justifying the GC actions...Who else has ventured an account of what the GCs did. Not a sausage And by you saying that you only know the Turkish side , does that not make your account a little one sided because as these things were going on what were the GCs doing. This whole thead is a waste of time and a blatant attack on the Turkish Cypriot people by you.
You have shown your colours many times Bir and you are doing it again here. You asked for back up to show that the GCs accept their part on all this and you got nothing. You asked for back up again and you still are getting nothing...You clearly believe that the TCs are to blame for everything with your claim that the information is out here...So why don't you find it and post a balanced thread instead of running us into the ground. What does it take for you to realise that these people do not play fair. You have given them the feeling that they are right and we are wrong...As if they needed any encouragement.....Where is your balance.....Why don't you just admit that you hate the TCs and the Turks equally and have done with it. Your house lays in ruin in the "RoC" and still we are to blame. We suffer embargoes at the hands of our killers and still you blame us. hat sort of a man are you??? If you end up living with the likes of Piratis then good...You deserve each other!!!
What happened to my New years Greetings.....I sent you one at that false name you gave me...You know the one..The one that you made up to fool me into thinking you were someone else...Te one that you don't check any more because it was meant just for me.......
Sorry,Zan. I wasn't ignoring you. I was out walking off the excess kilos I put on during the silly season.
Now,Piratis needs no rescueing from anyone,as you know well.
But I am starting to seriously worry about your cognitive processes,as they seem to include many distortions. My whole argument is that in a historical and complex struggle like ours it is impossible for the entire blame to be only on one side... So how can you think that I think all the blame is on the TCs???
I am doing what I think is the right thing to do...That is to dig up those facts and historical events which are ignored by our propaganda machine,and try to put things in their true prespective. I believe only if and when we can all see the clear picture and our role in this messy affair,only then can we find a fair and lasting peaceful solution. Not by repeating endlessly accusations based on one-sided half-truths,exaggerations or plain old lies...This applies to both sides. But it is not in my nature to rub other people's noses in their own mistakes. It will be counter productive in any case. Most people on this forum are intelligent enough to know the wrongs done by their side. If they don't choose to air it in public (and Piratis,Pyros,Kifeas,Bananiot,Cypezokyli,miltiades,humanist etc are on the record with their own self-criticisms) it does not mean I have to stop doing what I think is right.
And when will you realise that criticism does not equal hatred? Why should I hate my own kind? My son is half TC half Turkish anyway.Are you suggesting that I hate him every time I pull him up for doing something wrong??
I did not see the need to reply to your new years's greeting because i realised or thought it was generated by the computer. You know my real name so why should you use the name on my email address which is not mine. For your information,I have used a simple precaution and not used my real name when signing up to public forums on the net. But I explained that to you when I gave you my email address,I am sure. Everyone associated with this forum (with one exception you can guess) have that email address for me. So stop being paranoid...
Really....
Your only offer of a solution was " dissolve the TRNC and walk into the "RoC" and demand they let us back into the Cyprus Republic under the Zurich agreement". Do you realise that there is no Cyprus republic and the Zurich agreement has been made null and void by them. Did you not see the many speeches made by various GC leaders to that fact. They did it in 1964 and have denied it ever since to us. So your simplistic approach to the problem is to ask us to allow them to move into their homes and give them full control of the country and put ourselves back into the 3% that they forced us into back in the 60's and start complaining from there and they will see our plight and give us back our rights.....Nice plan govnor.......And you have a problem with my cognitive thinking
I think it is high time that you put your demands on the table with the likes of Piratis and see the response you get. I have asked you to write to the "RoC" administration to see what they say to your proposals and give us the answer but you know the result so you will not do it. Give us your final request from the GCs so that they can agree or disagree with you and stop this trying to be all things to all men crap. It would be more useful than this pointless thread in which you are getting no confessions from the GC at all but reasons as to why they are refusing to give us back our Cyprus republic. Then and only then will your cognitive thinking afford you the real picture. Lets have it Bir.......Lets have a discussion on how you are going to get the likes of Tpap to see it your way??????
I do not buy your explanation as to why you did not want to send me, by return, the new years greetings that I sent you. You want to play the saint all the time so a kindly reminder that I got your name mixed up with that on your actual email address would have been the right thing to do would it not. The greeting was not computer generated because it would not have contained any name if it was. I am not that good with computers as I have told you before. But even so...It came from an individual and courtesy dictates that a return of greeting is the way to go. Maybe a little hate got in the way hey!!! Me and Boomers have been taking chunks out of each other for a long time now but he returned my message with heartfelt best wishes and ha earned my respect...Although I secretly liked him anyway regardless of his piss taking abilities.
Zan...I am really sorry about the greeting business. I know less about computers than you do probably. I swear when I saw the wrong name on it,I assumed it was a generic message that you gave the computer to send automatically to all the people in your address book. On principle I never reply to generic messages generated by computers. There is no way in the world I would not return a greeting if I knew it was individually sent. I can only appologise and ask you to trust me on this. Sorry,mate.
The problem I have with you is that you seem to totally lack any empath and compassion for the GCs. You seem unable to go beyond what is written in Denktash's propaganda manuals. You jump on the GC desire for Enosis and use that to justify everything that has happened to them.
Of course it was wrong of them to seek Enosis,but from our perspective only. For them it was a very legitimate demand. For the first time in all their history they had a real chance of deciding their own fate. They were in overwhelming majority,Cyprus was ruled by Britain which was Greece's ally and protector. Why wouldnt they want to unite with the country they considered to be their motherland? If the roles were reversed and we were in the majority by 82% do you think we would say "it would be nice to be reunited with our motherland ,but we won't ask for that because we must consider the feelings of our fellow Cypriots"??? Have you ever considered this? If not ,why not?
And how would you feel if you were forced to share power equally,nay if you were forced to give a relatively small minority more powers than you got yourself??? And you were forced to sign an agreement which would essentially mean the end of your long cherished dream? And you were told this is the best you can get,take it or leave it...
All this does not mean that the TCs deserved the treatment they got from the GCs between 1964-74. The other side of the coin is,the GCs had little regard for the feelings of the TCs while making their dash for Enosis. And they probably had conscious or subconsious desire to punish the TCs for siding with the British,and for being part of the despised former rulers.
And you seem to totally ignore the fact the TCs were ready to jump out of the RoC government when the push came. They were preparing the ground for some time,since the beginning of of 1957, for sure.
You are wrong about the 1960 agreement being null and void. That cannot be done unilaterally. RoC owes its existance to the Zurich and London agreements of 1959. Tpapa gets his legitimacy from the same agreement. And the original Turkish intervention was legitimate under the same agreements. Turkey became an occupying power for failing to carry out her responsibility under the same agreements. And made matters worse by transporting the settlers in contradiction to international agreements. There is nothing stopping Talat to demand the rights of the TCs in the RoC under the 1960 constitution. But he can't have his cake and eat it too. He has to chose between the trnc and the RoC. And the choice is not his,so this is only academic.
The biggest mistake Makarios and the GCs did was not to realise what kind of an opponent they were facing in Denktash. They failed to see that he was not just a Turkish nationalist,he was a Turanist, a pan-Turkist ideolog who would stop at nothing to expand the borders of Turkey,and to unify the Turkic nations under one leader,one flag,one new empire.
Why do you think they got rid of first Faiz kaymak and then Dr Kuchuk to install Denktash???Because the other two were not as fanatical about partition as Denktash was...But we won't go there now.
If we fail to see both sides of the coin,and to consider the events in the time frame they occured,we will never get beyond trying to apportion blame for what happened. My frustration is that I see partition as a disaster for the TCs,self-induced ethnic cleansing and loss of identity and culture. I am essentially trying to wake you,the TCs up. I don't have the time and the energy to put both sides of the coin . If you feel the GCs are not forthcoming with their own admission of mistakes,nothing is stoppping you from filling in the gaps. If you are so certain of your facts just jump in whenever you see something is not "balanced" and state your case. I always said I want this to be a team effort. We will get nothing by shuting up and sweeping everything under the carpet,Zan. You are an intelligent and sensitive person,mate. you can make a great contribution if you approach this in the right spirit. And please stop misrepresenting my ideas. I never sugggested we go back to how things were between 1964-74. I would be bonkers to do so,given my life experiences. I can see only one solution which Cypriots can implement themselves.That is to return to the original RoC,prepared to negotiate the 13 points Makarios wanted to change to make the state more democratic and easier to run,and make another go at creating a nation of Cypriots...
Bir,
Re your comment about 'the kind of opponent they were facing in Denktash', I would ask if the buck really stops at Denktash.
Major Ismail Tansu, who served as a major in the Turkish army and was attached to the Special War Department where he was assigned the task of arming the TMT, describes in his book entitled "Aslında Kimse Uymuyordu" (In Fact Nobody Was Sleeping) how in June 1958 both Denktash and Dr Kutchuk were invited to the Modern Palas Hotel in Ankara and were interviewed by senior officers within the Special War Department. The purpose of this meeting was to decide who should be their right-hand man in Cyprus, and they chose Denktash. (This quote comes from page 249 of Niyazi Kızılyürek's "Milliyetçilik Kıskacında Kıbrıs")
The Special War Department, as everybody in Turkey knows, is the "deep state" itself. This shadowy entity is similar to the organisation known as "Gladio" in Itay, and similar organisations were set up by NATO in all front-line states with the aim of enabling a rear-guard guerrilla campaign to be waged in the event that these countries came under Soviet occupation. I wonder if there existed something similar in Greece? The Special War Department was lead by people who underwent special training, mainly in America, in things like unconventional warfare and propaganda techniques. The "deep state" in Turkey over time flourished and extended its tentacles into all aspects of political life. I believe that it is behind the campaign currently being waged in Turkey to set Turks and Kurds at each others' throats. The reason they are doing this is unclear to me.
The point is that when I read about the the way the TMT operated, it has the Turkish "deep state" written all over it. The words "faili meçhul" (a murder committed by persons unknown) are used in Turkey virtually as a euphemism for an assassination committed by the "deep state". How many people in Turkey know that the first ever "faili meçhul" was probably committed in Cyprus (Fazıl Önder 24 May 1958)? You are right to say that Makarios did not realise what kind of opponent he was facing, but I think that Denktash was no more than a puppet, and the real opponent was the Special War Department in Turkey, which made the cause of partioning Cyprus its own at the end ofthe fifties. Moves like the "from Turks to Turks campaign", giving villages pure Turkish names and fining people for speaking Greek all point to an orchestrated campaign led by people with a profound knowledge of how to wage psychological warfare. These moves all paved the way for what was to come. The puppet masters of this campaign were indeed experts in psychological warfare, and they were trained in this art in America at NATO's expense.
I think that the disputes between the first Turkish ambassador to the RoC, Emin Dirvana and Denktash are very significant. They clearly point to a dichotomy in the approach towards Cyprus of the official Turkish government, and the "deep state". The former supported the new Republic, while the latter were immediately working to undermine it. The circumstances under which Emin Dirvana was forced to return to Ankara, which have never been fully explained, smell of the tactics of the deep state.
I have no doubt that, ideologically speaking, Denktash was committed to the cause of Taksim, but I would question whether he was really anything more than a puppet in the hands of the Turkish Special War Department. Look how quickly he was dropped when he no longer suited Turkey's interests.
You wonder if if Greece has got a similar organisation.....
So Emin Dirvana was not protecting Turkey's true interests when, following the murders of Ayhan Hikmet and Muzaffer Gürkan, he summoned Denktash and Dr Kutchuk to his office, suggested that this event be investigated by a special commission and, should it emerge that either Denktash or Kutchuk were culpable of these murders, they be resettled in Turkey (an event described by Denktash himself on page 169 of volume 10 of his memoirs). Dirvana was trying to rid Cyprus of this cancer. The interests of the Turkish deep state are not synonymous with Turkey's interests.
So without Turkey how dose the deep state survive..... 
