Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

"BTW, you may have been the "local habitans" but you never owned Cyprus."

This phrase says it all. Colonial attitude at its best. It is sad taht TCs on this board have not reacted.

Can you, Eric, point out to any nation whose inhabitants "owned" their country before it became independent? Did the Turks own Turkey? Did the Italians own Italy or the French France? In the dark place where you live have you not heard of ideas like self determination and popular sovereignty?

[Nikitas]

"When I realised the colonial power was intend on dividing the Turkish and Greek Cypriots"

When GC posters state the same the hate mongers and some Brits on this forum shout foul. Well, how do you judge Dr Ihsan Ali's statement? Was he also a GC propagandist and trickster?

[Tim Drayton]

Birkibrisli to Piratis' rescue once again

You started off by telling us that you could only put the TC side of the story and that others should put forward the GC side...Apart from Nikitas, who is more interested in saving face and justifying the GC actions...Who else has ventured an account of what the GCs did. Not a sausage And by you saying that you only know the Turkish side , does that not make your account a little one sided because as these things were going on what were the GCs doing. This whole thead is a waste of time and a blatant attack on the Turkish Cypriot people by you.

You have shown your colours many times Bir and you are doing it again here. You asked for back up to show that the GCs accept their part on all this and you got nothing. You asked for back up again and you still are getting nothing...You clearly believe that the TCs are to blame for everything with your claim that the information is out here...So why don't you find it and post a balanced thread instead of running us into the ground. What does it take for you to realise that these people do not play fair. You have given them the feeling that they are right and we are wrong...As if they needed any encouragement.....Where is your balance.....Why don't you just admit that you hate the TCs and the Turks equally and have done with it. Your house lays in ruin in the "RoC" and still we are to blame. We suffer embargoes at the hands of our killers and still you blame us. hat sort of a man are you??? If you end up living with the likes of Piratis then good...You deserve each other!!!


What happened to my New years Greetings.....I sent you one at that false name you gave me...You know the one..The one that you made up to fool me into thinking you were someone else...Te one that you don't check any more because it was meant just for me.......

Sorry,Zan. I wasn't ignoring you. I was out walking off the excess kilos I put on during the silly season.

Now,Piratis needs no rescueing from anyone,as you know well.

But I am starting to seriously worry about your cognitive processes,as they seem to include many distortions. My whole argument is that in a historical and complex struggle like ours it is impossible for the entire blame to be only on one side... So how can you think that I think all the blame is on the TCs???

I am doing what I think is the right thing to do...That is to dig up those facts and historical events which are ignored by our propaganda machine,and try to put things in their true prespective. I believe only if and when we can all see the clear picture and our role in this messy affair,only then can we find a fair and lasting peaceful solution. Not by repeating endlessly accusations based on one-sided half-truths,exaggerations or plain old lies...This applies to both sides. But it is not in my nature to rub other people's noses in their own mistakes. It will be counter productive in any case. Most people on this forum are intelligent enough to know the wrongs done by their side. If they don't choose to air it in public (and Piratis,Pyros,Kifeas,Bananiot,Cypezokyli,miltiades,humanist etc are on the record with their own self-criticisms) it does not mean I have to stop doing what I think is right.

And when will you realise that criticism does not equal hatred? Why should I hate my own kind? My son is half TC half Turkish anyway.Are you suggesting that I hate him every time I pull him up for doing something wrong??

I did not see the need to reply to your new years's greeting because i realised or thought it was generated by the computer. You know my real name so why should you use the name on my email address which is not mine. For your information,I have used a simple precaution and not used my real name when signing up to public forums on the net. But I explained that to you when I gave you my email address,I am sure. Everyone associated with this forum (with one exception you can guess) have that email address for me. So stop being paranoid...

Really.... ....You worry about my cognitive process when in one post you say to utu that the "RoC" has hijacked the Cyprus Republic and then here you try to justify their wrong doings. We all know the dirty tricks that went on by both sides and that neither one is a saint but by your actions you are allowing them to get away with our country. You back the likes of Piratis who do not want to give our country back and our rights. They twist and turn with their lies as to why they should hold onto it and you give them encouragement with threads like this. You excuse their ENOSIS claims in which both Makarios and Grivas SWORE an oath for ENOSIS and you then tell me that ENOSIS was dead with the Zurich agreement. You then are unable to follow the reasoning behind their actions to achieve this goal and the first phase involves getting us out of government.....But I will not go on about that here because I am sure you will ignore it again......The fact that your father had such problems with the TMT is all you care about mate and I am sorry about that but that was why I gave you the short reply of "He who lives by the sword". This should have been cancelled out by all those that were killed by EOKA both TC and GC but you hold a grudge against those you fought with and not the ones you fought against. You have the right to be angry with them but not the right to sell your people down the line because of it...Your anger with the TMT is over-riding everything else that you know to be true. ENOSIS was the main factor of all these troubles and whether it exists today or not is not the problem..The problem is they still have our Republic and you are siding with those that do not want to give it back because of some sort of chivalry that you think rubbing their noses in it would demean. DO you want your Republic back or not or is this call for a return to the Zurich agreement just another smoke screen??? DO you honestly believe they are going to give it back with the way Piratis and Kifeas talk.

Your only offer of a solution was " dissolve the TRNC and walk into the "RoC" and demand they let us back into the Cyprus Republic under the Zurich agreement". Do you realise that there is no Cyprus republic and the Zurich agreement has been made null and void by them. Did you not see the many speeches made by various GC leaders to that fact. They did it in 1964 and have denied it ever since to us. So your simplistic approach to the problem is to ask us to allow them to move into their homes and give them full control of the country and put ourselves back into the 3% that they forced us into back in the 60's and start complaining from there and they will see our plight and give us back our rights.....Nice plan govnor.......And you have a problem with my cognitive thinking The whole process of constitution and everything else about Cyprus has to be renegotiated and the fact that that is what has been happening since and they have not given an inch and prefer to hold onto power and through a hasty decision the UN gave them the power to do so is OK by you.

I think it is high time that you put your demands on the table with the likes of Piratis and see the response you get. I have asked you to write to the "RoC" administration to see what they say to your proposals and give us the answer but you know the result so you will not do it. Give us your final request from the GCs so that they can agree or disagree with you and stop this trying to be all things to all men crap. It would be more useful than this pointless thread in which you are getting no confessions from the GC at all but reasons as to why they are refusing to give us back our Cyprus republic. Then and only then will your cognitive thinking afford you the real picture. Lets have it Bir.......Lets have a discussion on how you are going to get the likes of Tpap to see it your way??????



I do not buy your explanation as to why you did not want to send me, by return, the new years greetings that I sent you. You want to play the saint all the time so a kindly reminder that I got your name mixed up with that on your actual email address would have been the right thing to do would it not. The greeting was not computer generated because it would not have contained any name if it was. I am not that good with computers as I have told you before. But even so...It came from an individual and courtesy dictates that a return of greeting is the way to go. Maybe a little hate got in the way hey!!! Me and Boomers have been taking chunks out of each other for a long time now but he returned my message with heartfelt best wishes and ha earned my respect...Although I secretly liked him anyway regardless of his piss taking abilities.

Zan...I am really sorry about the greeting business. I know less about computers than you do probably. I swear when I saw the wrong name on it,I assumed it was a generic message that you gave the computer to send automatically to all the people in your address book. On principle I never reply to generic messages generated by computers. There is no way in the world I would not return a greeting if I knew it was individually sent. I can only appologise and ask you to trust me on this. Sorry,mate.

The problem I have with you is that you seem to totally lack any empath and compassion for the GCs. You seem unable to go beyond what is written in Denktash's propaganda manuals. You jump on the GC desire for Enosis and use that to justify everything that has happened to them.
Of course it was wrong of them to seek Enosis,but from our perspective only. For them it was a very legitimate demand. For the first time in all their history they had a real chance of deciding their own fate. They were in overwhelming majority,Cyprus was ruled by Britain which was Greece's ally and protector. Why wouldnt they want to unite with the country they considered to be their motherland? If the roles were reversed and we were in the majority by 82% do you think we would say "it would be nice to be reunited with our motherland ,but we won't ask for that because we must consider the feelings of our fellow Cypriots"??? Have you ever considered this? If not ,why not?

And how would you feel if you were forced to share power equally,nay if you were forced to give a relatively small minority more powers than you got yourself??? And you were forced to sign an agreement which would essentially mean the end of your long cherished dream? And you were told this is the best you can get,take it or leave it...

All this does not mean that the TCs deserved the treatment they got from the GCs between 1964-74. The other side of the coin is,the GCs had little regard for the feelings of the TCs while making their dash for Enosis. And they probably had conscious or subconsious desire to punish the TCs for siding with the British,and for being part of the despised former rulers.
And you seem to totally ignore the fact the TCs were ready to jump out of the RoC government when the push came. They were preparing the ground for some time,since the beginning of of 1957, for sure.

You are wrong about the 1960 agreement being null and void. That cannot be done unilaterally. RoC owes its existance to the Zurich and London agreements of 1959. Tpapa gets his legitimacy from the same agreement. And the original Turkish intervention was legitimate under the same agreements. Turkey became an occupying power for failing to carry out her responsibility under the same agreements. And made matters worse by transporting the settlers in contradiction to international agreements. There is nothing stopping Talat to demand the rights of the TCs in the RoC under the 1960 constitution. But he can't have his cake and eat it too. He has to chose between the trnc and the RoC. And the choice is not his,so this is only academic.

The biggest mistake Makarios and the GCs did was not to realise what kind of an opponent they were facing in Denktash. They failed to see that he was not just a Turkish nationalist,he was a Turanist, a pan-Turkist ideolog who would stop at nothing to expand the borders of Turkey,and to unify the Turkic nations under one leader,one flag,one new empire.
Why do you think they got rid of first Faiz kaymak and then Dr Kuchuk to install Denktash???Because the other two were not as fanatical about partition as Denktash was...But we won't go there now.

If we fail to see both sides of the coin,and to consider the events in the time frame they occured,we will never get beyond trying to apportion blame for what happened. My frustration is that I see partition as a disaster for the TCs,self-induced ethnic cleansing and loss of identity and culture. I am essentially trying to wake you,the TCs up. I don't have the time and the energy to put both sides of the coin . If you feel the GCs are not forthcoming with their own admission of mistakes,nothing is stoppping you from filling in the gaps. If you are so certain of your facts just jump in whenever you see something is not "balanced" and state your case. I always said I want this to be a team effort. We will get nothing by shuting up and sweeping everything under the carpet,Zan. You are an intelligent and sensitive person,mate. you can make a great contribution if you approach this in the right spirit. And please stop misrepresenting my ideas. I never sugggested we go back to how things were between 1964-74. I would be bonkers to do so,given my life experiences. I can see only one solution which Cypriots can implement themselves.That is to return to the original RoC,prepared to negotiate the 13 points Makarios wanted to change to make the state more democratic and easier to run,and make another go at creating a nation of Cypriots...

Bir,

Re your comment about 'the kind of opponent they were facing in Denktash', I would ask if the buck really stops at Denktash.

Major Ismail Tansu, who served as a major in the Turkish army and was attached to the Special War Department where he was assigned the task of arming the TMT, describes in his book entitled "Aslında Kimse Uymuyordu" (In Fact Nobody Was Sleeping) how in June 1958 both Denktash and Dr Kutchuk were invited to the Modern Palas Hotel in Ankara and were interviewed by senior officers within the Special War Department. The purpose of this meeting was to decide who should be their right-hand man in Cyprus, and they chose Denktash. (This quote comes from page 249 of Niyazi Kızılyürek's "Milliyetçilik Kıskacında Kıbrıs")

The Special War Department, as everybody in Turkey knows, is the "deep state" itself. This shadowy entity is similar to the organisation known as "Gladio" in Itay, and similar organisations were set up by NATO in all front-line states with the aim of enabling a rear-guard guerrilla campaign to be waged in the event that these countries came under Soviet occupation. I wonder if there existed something similar in Greece? The Special War Department was lead by people who underwent special training, mainly in America, in things like unconventional warfare and propaganda techniques. The "deep state" in Turkey over time flourished and extended its tentacles into all aspects of political life. I believe that it is behind the campaign currently being waged in Turkey to set Turks and Kurds at each others' throats. The reason they are doing this is unclear to me.

The point is that when I read about the the way the TMT operated, it has the Turkish "deep state" written all over it. The words "faili meçhul" (a murder committed by persons unknown) are used in Turkey virtually as a euphemism for an assassination committed by the "deep state". How many people in Turkey know that the first ever "faili meçhul" was probably committed in Cyprus (Fazıl Önder 24 May 1958)? You are right to say that Makarios did not realise what kind of opponent he was facing, but I think that Denktash was no more than a puppet, and the real opponent was the Special War Department in Turkey, which made the cause of partioning Cyprus its own at the end ofthe fifties. Moves like the "from Turks to Turks campaign", giving villages pure Turkish names and fining people for speaking Greek all point to an orchestrated campaign led by people with a profound knowledge of how to wage psychological warfare. These moves all paved the way for what was to come. The puppet masters of this campaign were indeed experts in psychological warfare, and they were trained in this art in America at NATO's expense.

I think that the disputes between the first Turkish ambassador to the RoC, Emin Dirvana and Denktash are very significant. They clearly point to a dichotomy in the approach towards Cyprus of the official Turkish government, and the "deep state". The former supported the new Republic, while the latter were immediately working to undermine it. The circumstances under which Emin Dirvana was forced to return to Ankara, which have never been fully explained, smell of the tactics of the deep state.

I have no doubt that, ideologically speaking, Denktash was committed to the cause of Taksim, but I would question whether he was really anything more than a puppet in the hands of the Turkish Special War Department. Look how quickly he was dropped when he no longer suited Turkey's interests.

[zan]

"When I realised the colonial power was intend on dividing the Turkish and Greek Cypriots"

When GC posters state the same the hate mongers and some Brits on this forum shout foul. Well, how do you judge Dr Ihsan Ali's statement? Was he also a GC propagandist and trickster?

Perhaps you would get your answer if you were to ask yourself what he would say if EOKA approached him for membership.

[Nikitas]

Eric said:

"When you talk about ENOSIS you are not just talking abut the 50's. Apart from that it is a fact that the Brits let a hell of a lot of Greeks settle in Cyprus and that's why you became a majority in such high numbers in a very short time. From 1960 to 1963 a shit load of Greek soldiers were brought into Cyprus to guarantee a swift and successful ENOSIS bringing with them shit load of guns and ammo.

You said "Greece encouraged the Enosis struggle but it did not actively help it beyond sending some surplus small arms." and that's why I called you a liar and you are lying, Greece was there in Cyprus murdering us TCs for ENOSIS, you know it and we know it so stop lying."

You have dates and events mixed up in your head.

A division of troops (8000) with their armaments was landed in Cyprus by Greece in late 1964. It stayed there until 1968 when the dictator Papadopoulos agreed at talks on the Evros river to withdraw them.

HOw does that affect the state of affairs in the 50s? If there were many Greek mainlanders in Cyprus in the 50s helping EOKA how come not one was ever arrested or killed by the British? Simply because there weren't any.

The reference to help in my posts was made in regard to the 50s. That was the time of the EOKA struggle for Enosis.

I challenged people here before to point to just ONE family of mainland Greeks who settled in Cyprus during British rule. No one has come forth with any names. During British rule the Aliens Act applied in Cyprus as they did in the rest of the British Empire. My mother could not live in Cyprus even though she married a Cypriot until after she got her British citizenship. Even though my father was an officer in the British Navy she was not allowed residence because she was an alien.

SO who is the liar?

[zan]

Birkibrisli to Piratis' rescue once again

You started off by telling us that you could only put the TC side of the story and that others should put forward the GC side...Apart from Nikitas, who is more interested in saving face and justifying the GC actions...Who else has ventured an account of what the GCs did. Not a sausage And by you saying that you only know the Turkish side , does that not make your account a little one sided because as these things were going on what were the GCs doing. This whole thead is a waste of time and a blatant attack on the Turkish Cypriot people by you.

You have shown your colours many times Bir and you are doing it again here. You asked for back up to show that the GCs accept their part on all this and you got nothing. You asked for back up again and you still are getting nothing...You clearly believe that the TCs are to blame for everything with your claim that the information is out here...So why don't you find it and post a balanced thread instead of running us into the ground. What does it take for you to realise that these people do not play fair. You have given them the feeling that they are right and we are wrong...As if they needed any encouragement.....Where is your balance.....Why don't you just admit that you hate the TCs and the Turks equally and have done with it. Your house lays in ruin in the "RoC" and still we are to blame. We suffer embargoes at the hands of our killers and still you blame us. hat sort of a man are you??? If you end up living with the likes of Piratis then good...You deserve each other!!!


What happened to my New years Greetings.....I sent you one at that false name you gave me...You know the one..The one that you made up to fool me into thinking you were someone else...Te one that you don't check any more because it was meant just for me.......

Sorry,Zan. I wasn't ignoring you. I was out walking off the excess kilos I put on during the silly season.

Now,Piratis needs no rescueing from anyone,as you know well.

But I am starting to seriously worry about your cognitive processes,as they seem to include many distortions. My whole argument is that in a historical and complex struggle like ours it is impossible for the entire blame to be only on one side... So how can you think that I think all the blame is on the TCs???

I am doing what I think is the right thing to do...That is to dig up those facts and historical events which are ignored by our propaganda machine,and try to put things in their true prespective. I believe only if and when we can all see the clear picture and our role in this messy affair,only then can we find a fair and lasting peaceful solution. Not by repeating endlessly accusations based on one-sided half-truths,exaggerations or plain old lies...This applies to both sides. But it is not in my nature to rub other people's noses in their own mistakes. It will be counter productive in any case. Most people on this forum are intelligent enough to know the wrongs done by their side. If they don't choose to air it in public (and Piratis,Pyros,Kifeas,Bananiot,Cypezokyli,miltiades,humanist etc are on the record with their own self-criticisms) it does not mean I have to stop doing what I think is right.

And when will you realise that criticism does not equal hatred? Why should I hate my own kind? My son is half TC half Turkish anyway.Are you suggesting that I hate him every time I pull him up for doing something wrong??

I did not see the need to reply to your new years's greeting because i realised or thought it was generated by the computer. You know my real name so why should you use the name on my email address which is not mine. For your information,I have used a simple precaution and not used my real name when signing up to public forums on the net. But I explained that to you when I gave you my email address,I am sure. Everyone associated with this forum (with one exception you can guess) have that email address for me. So stop being paranoid...

Really.... ....You worry about my cognitive process when in one post you say to utu that the "RoC" has hijacked the Cyprus Republic and then here you try to justify their wrong doings. We all know the dirty tricks that went on by both sides and that neither one is a saint but by your actions you are allowing them to get away with our country. You back the likes of Piratis who do not want to give our country back and our rights. They twist and turn with their lies as to why they should hold onto it and you give them encouragement with threads like this. You excuse their ENOSIS claims in which both Makarios and Grivas SWORE an oath for ENOSIS and you then tell me that ENOSIS was dead with the Zurich agreement. You then are unable to follow the reasoning behind their actions to achieve this goal and the first phase involves getting us out of government.....But I will not go on about that here because I am sure you will ignore it again......The fact that your father had such problems with the TMT is all you care about mate and I am sorry about that but that was why I gave you the short reply of "He who lives by the sword". This should have been cancelled out by all those that were killed by EOKA both TC and GC but you hold a grudge against those you fought with and not the ones you fought against. You have the right to be angry with them but not the right to sell your people down the line because of it...Your anger with the TMT is over-riding everything else that you know to be true. ENOSIS was the main factor of all these troubles and whether it exists today or not is not the problem..The problem is they still have our Republic and you are siding with those that do not want to give it back because of some sort of chivalry that you think rubbing their noses in it would demean. DO you want your Republic back or not or is this call for a return to the Zurich agreement just another smoke screen??? DO you honestly believe they are going to give it back with the way Piratis and Kifeas talk.

Your only offer of a solution was " dissolve the TRNC and walk into the "RoC" and demand they let us back into the Cyprus Republic under the Zurich agreement". Do you realise that there is no Cyprus republic and the Zurich agreement has been made null and void by them. Did you not see the many speeches made by various GC leaders to that fact. They did it in 1964 and have denied it ever since to us. So your simplistic approach to the problem is to ask us to allow them to move into their homes and give them full control of the country and put ourselves back into the 3% that they forced us into back in the 60's and start complaining from there and they will see our plight and give us back our rights.....Nice plan govnor.......And you have a problem with my cognitive thinking The whole process of constitution and everything else about Cyprus has to be renegotiated and the fact that that is what has been happening since and they have not given an inch and prefer to hold onto power and through a hasty decision the UN gave them the power to do so is OK by you.

I think it is high time that you put your demands on the table with the likes of Piratis and see the response you get. I have asked you to write to the "RoC" administration to see what they say to your proposals and give us the answer but you know the result so you will not do it. Give us your final request from the GCs so that they can agree or disagree with you and stop this trying to be all things to all men crap. It would be more useful than this pointless thread in which you are getting no confessions from the GC at all but reasons as to why they are refusing to give us back our Cyprus republic. Then and only then will your cognitive thinking afford you the real picture. Lets have it Bir.......Lets have a discussion on how you are going to get the likes of Tpap to see it your way??????



I do not buy your explanation as to why you did not want to send me, by return, the new years greetings that I sent you. You want to play the saint all the time so a kindly reminder that I got your name mixed up with that on your actual email address would have been the right thing to do would it not. The greeting was not computer generated because it would not have contained any name if it was. I am not that good with computers as I have told you before. But even so...It came from an individual and courtesy dictates that a return of greeting is the way to go. Maybe a little hate got in the way hey!!! Me and Boomers have been taking chunks out of each other for a long time now but he returned my message with heartfelt best wishes and ha earned my respect...Although I secretly liked him anyway regardless of his piss taking abilities.

Zan...I am really sorry about the greeting business. I know less about computers than you do probably. I swear when I saw the wrong name on it,I assumed it was a generic message that you gave the computer to send automatically to all the people in your address book. On principle I never reply to generic messages generated by computers. There is no way in the world I would not return a greeting if I knew it was individually sent. I can only appologise and ask you to trust me on this. Sorry,mate.

The problem I have with you is that you seem to totally lack any empath and compassion for the GCs. You seem unable to go beyond what is written in Denktash's propaganda manuals. You jump on the GC desire for Enosis and use that to justify everything that has happened to them.
Of course it was wrong of them to seek Enosis,but from our perspective only. For them it was a very legitimate demand. For the first time in all their history they had a real chance of deciding their own fate. They were in overwhelming majority,Cyprus was ruled by Britain which was Greece's ally and protector. Why wouldnt they want to unite with the country they considered to be their motherland? If the roles were reversed and we were in the majority by 82% do you think we would say "it would be nice to be reunited with our motherland ,but we won't ask for that because we must consider the feelings of our fellow Cypriots"??? Have you ever considered this? If not ,why not?

And how would you feel if you were forced to share power equally,nay if you were forced to give a relatively small minority more powers than you got yourself??? And you were forced to sign an agreement which would essentially mean the end of your long cherished dream? And you were told this is the best you can get,take it or leave it...

All this does not mean that the TCs deserved the treatment they got from the GCs between 1964-74. The other side of the coin is,the GCs had little regard for the feelings of the TCs while making their dash for Enosis. And they probably had conscious or subconsious desire to punish the TCs for siding with the British,and for being part of the despised former rulers.
And you seem to totally ignore the fact the TCs were ready to jump out of the RoC government when the push came. They were preparing the ground for some time,since the beginning of of 1957, for sure.

You are wrong about the 1960 agreement being null and void. That cannot be done unilaterally. RoC owes its existance to the Zurich and London agreements of 1959. Tpapa gets his legitimacy from the same agreement. And the original Turkish intervention was legitimate under the same agreements. Turkey became an occupying power for failing to carry out her responsibility under the same agreements. And made matters worse by transporting the settlers in contradiction to international agreements. There is nothing stopping Talat to demand the rights of the TCs in the RoC under the 1960 constitution. But he can't have his cake and eat it too. He has to chose between the trnc and the RoC. And the choice is not his,so this is only academic.

The biggest mistake Makarios and the GCs did was not to realise what kind of an opponent they were facing in Denktash. They failed to see that he was not just a Turkish nationalist,he was a Turanist, a pan-Turkist ideolog who would stop at nothing to expand the borders of Turkey,and to unify the Turkic nations under one leader,one flag,one new empire.
Why do you think they got rid of first Faiz kaymak and then Dr Kuchuk to install Denktash???Because the other two were not as fanatical about partition as Denktash was...But we won't go there now.

If we fail to see both sides of the coin,and to consider the events in the time frame they occured,we will never get beyond trying to apportion blame for what happened. My frustration is that I see partition as a disaster for the TCs,self-induced ethnic cleansing and loss of identity and culture. I am essentially trying to wake you,the TCs up. I don't have the time and the energy to put both sides of the coin . If you feel the GCs are not forthcoming with their own admission of mistakes,nothing is stoppping you from filling in the gaps. If you are so certain of your facts just jump in whenever you see something is not "balanced" and state your case. I always said I want this to be a team effort. We will get nothing by shuting up and sweeping everything under the carpet,Zan. You are an intelligent and sensitive person,mate. you can make a great contribution if you approach this in the right spirit. And please stop misrepresenting my ideas. I never sugggested we go back to how things were between 1964-74. I would be bonkers to do so,given my life experiences. I can see only one solution which Cypriots can implement themselves.That is to return to the original RoC,prepared to negotiate the 13 points Makarios wanted to change to make the state more democratic and easier to run,and make another go at creating a nation of Cypriots...

Bir,

Re your comment about 'the kind of opponent they were facing in Denktash', I would ask if the buck really stops at Denktash.

Major Ismail Tansu, who served as a major in the Turkish army and was attached to the Special War Department where he was assigned the task of arming the TMT, describes in his book entitled "Aslında Kimse Uymuyordu" (In Fact Nobody Was Sleeping) how in June 1958 both Denktash and Dr Kutchuk were invited to the Modern Palas Hotel in Ankara and were interviewed by senior officers within the Special War Department. The purpose of this meeting was to decide who should be their right-hand man in Cyprus, and they chose Denktash. (This quote comes from page 249 of Niyazi Kızılyürek's "Milliyetçilik Kıskacında Kıbrıs")

The Special War Department, as everybody in Turkey knows, is the "deep state" itself. This shadowy entity is similar to the organisation known as "Gladio" in Itay, and similar organisations were set up by NATO in all front-line states with the aim of enabling a rear-guard guerrilla campaign to be waged in the event that these countries came under Soviet occupation. I wonder if there existed something similar in Greece? The Special War Department was lead by people who underwent special training, mainly in America, in things like unconventional warfare and propaganda techniques. The "deep state" in Turkey over time flourished and extended its tentacles into all aspects of political life. I believe that it is behind the campaign currently being waged in Turkey to set Turks and Kurds at each others' throats. The reason they are doing this is unclear to me.

The point is that when I read about the the way the TMT operated, it has the Turkish "deep state" written all over it. The words "faili meçhul" (a murder committed by persons unknown) are used in Turkey virtually as a euphemism for an assassination committed by the "deep state". How many people in Turkey know that the first ever "faili meçhul" was probably committed in Cyprus (Fazıl Önder 24 May 1958)? You are right to say that Makarios did not realise what kind of opponent he was facing, but I think that Denktash was no more than a puppet, and the real opponent was the Special War Department in Turkey, which made the cause of partioning Cyprus its own at the end ofthe fifties. Moves like the "from Turks to Turks campaign", giving villages pure Turkish names and fining people for speaking Greek all point to an orchestrated campaign led by people with a profound knowledge of how to wage psychological warfare. These moves all paved the way for what was to come. The puppet masters of this campaign were indeed experts in psychological warfare, and they were trained in this art in America at NATO's expense.

I think that the disputes between the first Turkish ambassador to the RoC, Emin Dirvana and Denktash are very significant. They clearly point to a dichotomy in the approach towards Cyprus of the official Turkish government, and the "deep state". The former supported the new Republic, while the latter were immediately working to undermine it. The circumstances under which Emin Dirvana was forced to return to Ankara, which have never been fully explained, smell of the tactics of the deep state.

I have no doubt that, ideologically speaking, Denktash was committed to the cause of Taksim, but I would question whether he was really anything more than a puppet in the hands of the Turkish Special War Department. Look how quickly he was dropped when he no longer suited Turkey's interests.

You wonder if if Greece has got a similar organisation..... Every one is allowed to protect it's interests but Turkey

[zan]

From: PERIODIKA, 6.2.1994 (Greek Cypriot weekly magazine) From an interview with Mr. Ayionatitis, the leader of the Greek Political Party "Ergatikei Demokratika Association"

"Greek Cypriot leadership says that the Cyprus problem began in 1974; but it began long before this and even before the independence (1960)...Power-holders on our side were oppressing Turkish Cypriots before 1974..."

"...We should not forget that before 1974 Turkish Cypriots had been treated like Negroes...Turks were doing the worst work but receiving the least money. Turks had not had any control over the island's economy."

"Reverting to the state of affairs before 1974 would not be a justified move at all. Turks will never agree to this. And we have to admit one more thing: If Turkey arrived in 1974 to save the Turkish Cypriots, the latter were really in need of being saved. No one could know what the coupists would do if they took over. Turkish Cypriots were concerned about their fate in case Cyprus was united with Greece and they were justified with their concern. It is because of this concern that Turkish Cypriots have been fighting against Enosis since 1945. Under this climate, there remains to be no justification for refugees to return to their homes."


I suppose that Turkey was responsible for us being treated in such a fashion as well.

[Kikapu]

So when (not if) the British and the Turks would approach the TCs and tell them that they are not just Cypriots but instead "equal partners" and that if they collaborate with them to help them maintain some troops and some control over Cyprus, that in return they would grand to them huge gains on the loss of the rest of Cypriots, do you think TCs would reject this proposal? Even when the British and the Turks would remind them of the old adversary between Greeks and Turks?

I understand what you are saying Piratis as far as the British not wanting to let go of "their" island completely as they had done with the rest (almost all) of their former colonies, was the reason in creating the 1960 Constitution as they did, expecting problems to arise from it, which they can then just watch it from a distance as "Cyprus Burns", and one can see this very clearly with their very passive to no action towards the 1963 GC's-TC's conflict, 1974 Coup by the Junta, and the 1974 Invasion by Turkey. So my question to you and Bir and others is, why didn't Britain when she was ready to let Cyprus go, did not divide the island into 3 parts based on the size of the population along ethnic lines, which would have been approx. 16% of the island to the TC's, 78% for the GC's and just keep 6% for herself to operate the bases. Do not take these %'s as absolute but only to make a point here, and that is, why didn't the British do the above and saved everyone from disaster that has happened since 1960.

Would the GC's or the TC's would have minded had this was done, and would there have been any interest by the GC's to seek Enosis with Greece or Taksim by the TC's with Turkey. Britain only wanting to maintain their military bases on the island could have made it very clear, that they would not want any other military power on the island, be it be from Greece or Turkey. A peaceful partition back then could have been established and if the two communities then wanted to have any kind of a Confederation with each other in the future, that too would have been possible, which would have been more Democratic than the 1960 Constitution or the AP.

So, what were the Brits up to back in 1960, is what I want to know.??

[BirKibrisli]

The TC/Turkish demand for 'Cyprus to be returned to her previous rulers' was of course an ambit claim. It was invented and manipulated by the British to serve their own purposes. By 1956 however Cyprus problem had reached a new turning point...

The 15 July,1955 edition of Turkey's influential "Forum" magazine had come up with a new solution : The Partition (Taksim) of Cyprus between Turkey and Greece... On 25 February 1956,this idea was repeated in the Turkish parilament by the independent member for Manisa,Hikmet Bayur.
And on 19 July 1956,in an speech to the House of Commons,the Conservative MP Walter Elliot put the idea of partition officially on the British political agenda as "something to be seriously considered as the final solution".

The idea gained enough momentum to be reported in the Athens newspapers on 14 october 1956.And by the end of 1956 the idea was warmly embraced by the Turkish prime Minister Menderes who,not so long ago,was on record for saying that Cyprus was not a piece of cloth to be torn up any which way...

By the end of 1957,the TMT slogan "Ya Taksim Ya Olum"(Partition or Death) was painted all over Cyprus in blood-red paint.. Yet there were still people warning of the gravity of such a solution as early as January,1957. Following is a translation of the appropriate sections of a letter (translation by me-BK) to Professor Nihat Erim (later to be appointed Prime Minister by the Military) who was the Head of the committee preparing the official Turkish policy on Cyprus:

" ...Turks and Greeks of Cyprus are one indivisible people who have lived together for hundreds of years on these lands. They have ploughed fields together,worked side by side in workshops as brothers together,lived side by side together and embraced each other in towns and villages,laughed together in good times and cried together in the bad times,sharing a common fate...

"...The idea of Partition mentioned in the British Parilament recently is not only impractical but also impossible to serve as a lasting solution. Turkish and Greek Cypriots do not live separately in their exclusive areas. Such a solution would necessitate internal migration which will prove impossible to accomplish without serious ramifications...

" Our heroic nation has taken the lead role in the libertion struggle against colonialism in the Near and Middle East. This is written in gold in our own history,and it is admired by the rest of the world. It is our bigest wish to see this honorable historical tradition continue. And History has put that responsibility primarily on your own shoulders..."

Signed
Administrator
Turkish Cypriot Branch
AKEL

The TC members of AKEL were not alone in opposing the emerging policy of Partition. Another prominent TC who strongly opposed Partition was Dr Ihsan Ali. Originally from Paphos,Dr Ali first became prominent as the representative on the KATAK (the first serious TC political association established in 1943). He was a well-liked local doctor with plenty of integrity who,in 1953, was elected as a councillor on the Paphos Municipal Council. In an interview given to a foreign journalist in 1960 he had this to say:

" I was the first TC politician to speak openly against Partition. I was saying,' gentlemen, the talks are heading towards Taksim. This is a dirty trick by the imperialists. Partition is a diabolical solution.'

"When I realised the colonial power was intend on dividing the Turkish and Greek Cypriots,I resigned from my position. In March,1958 Denktash,who had become the leader of TMT, invited me to work and cooperate with him. I refused because I knew in which direction Denktash's terrorist plans were heading. They were heading towards brother killing brother..." (Schmidt, Auf der Suche nach Aphrodite,Leipzig,1966,p.246)

As I mentioned earlier,in its first official statement made on 29 November,1957 the TMT called on all Turkish Cypriots to show total obedience to TMT directions. Dissenters and traitors "will be mercilessly crushed" was the accompanying chilling warning...

The first direct action attributed to the TMT was what came to be known as "the 27-28 January incidents"... Allow me to put this scene in proper perspective for you...By the end of 1957,the idea of Partition (Taksim) was being discussed between England,Turkey,Greece,and the USA in secret or semi-official talks. The EOKA was speeding up its terror campaign against the British and some leftist GC targets. Sir Hugh Foot had just replaced field Marshall Harding as the Governor. On 5 December,1957 3 Turkish Cypriots were killed near Paphos,and the British authorities were quick to point the finger at the EOKA.(It was later discovered that the killings were non-political,having to do with personal grievances.) In Nicosia the TCs took it upon themselves to attack the GC sector and set some shops and buildings on fire. On 12 December 1957 Greece had a small victory at the UN,when a resolution was passed to accept a Greek proposal which left the door open for future action on the self-determination right of Cypriots as a whole. The new governor,Sir Hugh Foot,had announced his own plans for Cyprus which involved not partition but a form of self-government. And on 26 January,1958 the British Foreign Minister Lloyd accompanied Sir Hugh to Ankara to discuss his self-determination proposals. Despite Turkish insistent on immediate Partition of the island,the British had stood firm on Sir Hugh's self-government idea,which would allow the Greek and Turkish Cypriots to go on living together for the foreseeable future...

So,on 27 January,1958, organised by the TMT,Turkish Cypriots came out in large numbers in Nicosia's Sarayonu Square to demand their final solution : Partition or Death... People from all walks of life including trade unions,small business organisations,farmers groups,and school students begun a noisy demonstration...Shouting slogans against Sir Hugh Foot they attacked armed British soldiers with sticks,stones,and broken bottles.
This was the first time the Turkish Cypriots were protesting against the British in Cyprus. In the ensuing melee 2 TCs (one a woman) were ran over and killed by a British army truck.The following day 3 young male TCs were killed instantly when their car was fired upon by British soldiers near the Kyrenia gate.On the same day (28 January,1958)in similar incidents in Famagusta 2 more TCs were killed. The unexpected clash between the British authorities and the TCs moved a former governor of Cyprus,Lord Winster,to observe, "Great Britain is paying the price for encouraging the idiotic Turkish/TC policy of Partition..." (Manchester Guardian,7 February 1958)...

As well as the 7 deaths,70 people were injured including women and children.In his memoirs published in the Soz newspaper, Teacher and Journalist Arif Hasan Tahsin reports an incident told him by a nurse,Sevim Ulfet : " There were dead and wounded people everywhere at the hospital that day. I spotted Rauf Denktash who had come to visit the wounded.'For Allah's sake stop this violence,' I said to Denktash, 'enough is enough'...
'We need these deaths to make the world hear our voice,' Denktash answered. I exploded,' Then why don't you and Dr Kuchuk go out there and get yourselves killed. That would really make the world stop and listen!'" (Soz Newspaper,2 December,1982)

That must've been one of the few times in his life Denktash was lost for words...

[Nikitas]

Re Tim's question " I wonder if there existed something similar in Greece? "

The answer is yes. There was a special army section charged with preparing for guerilla operations should Greece ever be occupied by a foreign power. It was an American plan and it was uncovered in the 80s or early 90s. The code name was "sheepskin" or some such and among the preparations were secret arms caches all over the country.

Once uncovered there was such an outcry by leftists in Greece that it was thoroughly dismantled. It was perhaps the last bastion of the old right wing pro American system to be dismantled.

I also believe that the EDMA movement in Cyprus was part of this American inspired and led obsession to prevent a communist takeover at any cost.

TCs posting here tend to be obsessed with EOKA as an anti Turkish force and thus fail to see how it was used in other ways. The mainland Greek army personnel who came to Cyprus after 1960 were fanatic anticommunists. With American blessings they set up an anticommunist machine which involved some former EOKA men. Among the tactics used was the selection of right wing recruits in the National Guard who remained as spies on their fellow villagers after they completed their service.

FOr the Greeks this anti communism might have been a reasonable development following the civil war in Greece between the communists and the government forces. In Cyprus we had no such problem and AKEL was a legal party. Cypriots could not fully understand this anticommunist mania and to overcome this inability the mainland Greek officers used nationalist ideology to indoctrinate people. Soon we had the terminology in place, you were either a patriot or a communist and Greek Cypriot society was divided with the blessings of the "motherland". The division in Cypriot minds became something different- the hard line Enosis, right wing pro Greece minority facing a pro Makarios pro independence majority. The harder the mainlanders tried to establish a following the less they succeeded. This partly explains why they resorted to the clumsy resurrection of EOKA in its B version and to the violent campaign of 1972-73.

Tim also points to another aspect that I consider important. The Turkish and Greek officers trained for these possible guerilla wars against probable enemies trained at the same time and place. That is where contacts between mainlanders were established and (this is personal belief, I cannot prove it yet) where the idea of double union was hatched along with parallel actions to suppress leftists in both communities and eradication of the "red danger" in Cyprus.