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This should upset some of you

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby zan » Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:17 am

phoenix wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:
phoenix wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:
phoenix wrote:
bilako22 wrote:Cyprus -Turkish troops = Greeks beating the shit out of TCs.


Cyprus + Turks = Extinction of TCs



We praise you for your intellgence then you join in the 'magic formula club.

I thought you would be the first person to point out that

one fig + one cucumber does not give you anything else other than one fig and one cucumber. Tut tut tut. :lol: :lol:

How are you by the way. Still recovering from Hogmannay by the looks. Way below par I'd say. I wish you a speedy recovery. Perhaps your imminent departure to Cyprus is unsettling you. :lol: I am sure there will be a warm welcome waiting for you, somewhere. :lol:


:lol: Care to sort out this fine mess you have made deniz? :lol:

(If you look back, I was the first to start with the formula :D . . . without realising that so many of you do not have a mathematical clue).



OK mathematical genius.

Prove to me that one fig plus one cucumber does not result in one fig and one cucumber.

Others have used the formulas prir to you Phoenix mou.


As a Genetic Engineer who tinkered with plant genes for 9 years I can turn your one fig or one cucumber to millions of figs and cucumbers, minituarized or blown up to gigantic proportions.

I can insert genes from the fig into the cucumber and produce "figumbers". :D

As for the formulae I believe you will find on page 2 of this thread,


phoenix wrote:The solution to the Cyprus problem is the removal of the Turkish troops ....

Simple algebra:

Cyprus - Turks = Solution

.... and thank you for coming out to Cyprus to support me with garlands . . . or where you planning to propel them from the UK :lol:


. . . . It's not something I am bothered about, just defending myself against your rude assertion that I joined in with your formulae uninvited when I was present at the conception . . . :lol:


Isn't that the same as:

Cyprus =Turks
.............Cyprus
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Postby phoenix » Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:22 am

zan wrote:
phoenix wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:
phoenix wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:
phoenix wrote:
bilako22 wrote:Cyprus -Turkish troops = Greeks beating the shit out of TCs.


Cyprus + Turks = Extinction of TCs



We praise you for your intellgence then you join in the 'magic formula club.

I thought you would be the first person to point out that

one fig + one cucumber does not give you anything else other than one fig and one cucumber. Tut tut tut. :lol: :lol:

How are you by the way. Still recovering from Hogmannay by the looks. Way below par I'd say. I wish you a speedy recovery. Perhaps your imminent departure to Cyprus is unsettling you. :lol: I am sure there will be a warm welcome waiting for you, somewhere. :lol:


:lol: Care to sort out this fine mess you have made deniz? :lol:

(If you look back, I was the first to start with the formula :D . . . without realising that so many of you do not have a mathematical clue).



OK mathematical genius.

Prove to me that one fig plus one cucumber does not result in one fig and one cucumber.

Others have used the formulas prir to you Phoenix mou.


As a Genetic Engineer who tinkered with plant genes for 9 years I can turn your one fig or one cucumber to millions of figs and cucumbers, minituarized or blown up to gigantic proportions.

I can insert genes from the fig into the cucumber and produce "figumbers". :D

As for the formulae I believe you will find on page 2 of this thread,


phoenix wrote:The solution to the Cyprus problem is the removal of the Turkish troops ....

Simple algebra:

Cyprus - Turks = Solution

.... and thank you for coming out to Cyprus to support me with garlands . . . or where you planning to propel them from the UK :lol:


. . . . It's not something I am bothered about, just defending myself against your rude assertion that I joined in with your formulae uninvited when I was present at the conception . . . :lol:


Isn't that the same as:

Cyprus =Turks
.............Cyprus


:?

Zan dear, don't even try to do maths! You are the creative, artistic, poet type :lol:

Now, sleep well . . . . . I am definitely off now, to do some reading to quieten my thoughts, perchance to dream of sweet things . . . 8)
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Postby bilako22 » Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:07 am

Cyprus +Turks = Strong Cyprus
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Postby zan » Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:15 am

phoenix wrote:
zan wrote:
phoenix wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:
phoenix wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:
phoenix wrote:
bilako22 wrote:Cyprus -Turkish troops = Greeks beating the shit out of TCs.


Cyprus + Turks = Extinction of TCs



We praise you for your intellgence then you join in the 'magic formula club.

I thought you would be the first person to point out that

one fig + one cucumber does not give you anything else other than one fig and one cucumber. Tut tut tut. :lol: :lol:

How are you by the way. Still recovering from Hogmannay by the looks. Way below par I'd say. I wish you a speedy recovery. Perhaps your imminent departure to Cyprus is unsettling you. :lol: I am sure there will be a warm welcome waiting for you, somewhere. :lol:


:lol: Care to sort out this fine mess you have made deniz? :lol:

(If you look back, I was the first to start with the formula :D . . . without realising that so many of you do not have a mathematical clue).



OK mathematical genius.

Prove to me that one fig plus one cucumber does not result in one fig and one cucumber.

Others have used the formulas prir to you Phoenix mou.


As a Genetic Engineer who tinkered with plant genes for 9 years I can turn your one fig or one cucumber to millions of figs and cucumbers, minituarized or blown up to gigantic proportions.

I can insert genes from the fig into the cucumber and produce "figumbers". :D

As for the formulae I believe you will find on page 2 of this thread,


phoenix wrote:The solution to the Cyprus problem is the removal of the Turkish troops ....

Simple algebra:

Cyprus - Turks = Solution

.... and thank you for coming out to Cyprus to support me with garlands . . . or where you planning to propel them from the UK :lol:


. . . . It's not something I am bothered about, just defending myself against your rude assertion that I joined in with your formulae uninvited when I was present at the conception . . . :lol:


Isn't that the same as:

Cyprus =Turks
.............Cyprus


:?

Zan dear, don't even try to do maths! You are the creative, artistic, poet type :lol:

Now, sleep well . . . . . I am definitely off now, to do some reading to quieten my thoughts, perchance to dream of sweet things . . . 8)



Thanks...I think... :?

I like Bilako22' above but how about this one:

Cyprus = Cyprus
...................2
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Postby repulsewarrior » Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:49 pm

here deniz,

i promised you more detail


1.) a State, two National Assemblies; three governments: Bi-communal 2.) many small (but sustainable) enclaves scattered in either territory, to allow for the return of Cypriots either Turcophone or Grecophone as communities (as well as Individuals anywhere else), equitable and futuristic redistribution of land, and to accomodate settlers with homes, instead of houses; many parts: Bi-zonal.

The situation:

The possibility of a great number of people to be displaced, (again), to redress the injustice, of these hundreds of thousands of citizens who have already suffered illegal violations of their Basic Human Rights.

The island divided in two, with the two populations in isolation from each other.

A desire for a solution which provides equality of individual rights and a communal nature to the service which will be provided to the population.

Notwithstanding any previous agreements, the two communities cannot negociate independantly without Turkey's consideration.

The Solution:

Leave the island basically divided as it is.

Plan for the Right of Return, and allow for communities to be rebuilt, and to be large enough to provide for their own social-exchange. It is not important how many of these "cantons" or pockets are arranged, they will most likely be of mixed population, but the majority would be the opposite to the territory which surrounds it.

Plan for new settlements to be built so that the island can be better managed as a sustainable resource which can be developed, allowing for convenience and free movement for all citizens island wide.

In this manner, there is an opportunity for those who will be displaced to choose, and their is a greater chance for the individual to have a choice which is suitable.

The Constitution will be reformed.

The State, "Republic of Cyprus" will continue to exist, and it will be a better representitive of our will as a people because it will be sovereign in the defense of our Individual Rights.

Two states will exist who are sovereign, in providing the services citizens receive, in their territory, and their satelite states, the "Cantons".

The Federal Government will be lead by the leader whose party wins the greatest number of seats in the Upper House. The Lower House will have representatives independantly elected, and a speaker, whose function is to direct the House toward their votes on legislation, and to have selected the representatives whose work will be focused in Committee, by consensus. I may add that this House will evolve over time to represent regions.

The Upper House will have an equal number of seats for Turcophones and Grecophones. Each Citizen will vote for one of each group, not necessarily in support of the same Party, to represent their riding. Do the math. Only a leader who appeals to all citizens can win, and hold on to power.

The State of the northern... has a structure, and it seems to be appreciated by the population that it serves. The State of the southern...is up to that population there, to create, for themselves. I believe in this way, it will be possible to provide recognition for Minority rights, reciprocally for both populations, as well as the chance to promote diversity, within our own respective collectivities.

Cypriots, in voting for this "Plan" will renounce the association they have with their respective "motherlands", and they will accept that they are equal founding members in this stuggle to end subjugation.

I know...I know... the population of Cyprus is not 12 Million, yet. But that is the potential, with the world's population at 9 Billion.

Take a map of Cyprus, gather a handful of jewels and scatter them over the island. This reform, its geographic context described, in essence.

Take three governments: two which are zonal; sovereign over their territory, the usage du sol, representing the country's internal affairs, and one; Republic of Cyprus, sovereign as a country, having a reformed Constitution, an equal member of the EU.

Keep the same border since it seems that this was decided in 1962... but introduce the trade, reproportionalisation, organise so that land is redistributed toward progressive population growth, introduce a strategy for the repopulation of the island... through these "Cantons" , (not my idea... only agreeing to it, having read it as an idea discussed Mak-Denk1974),

Well that's not clear, again,

The Jewels, each one an island, and an inverse of the land that surrounds it. With this redistribution of the land, with it being a challenge to many of hardship, there is, at least in the end a home which is theirs, and a community, for their family to grow.


In my mind it is normal to see Turkish Cypriot Towns...in the south. Talk, about racism... often I meet Greeks who scowl, having said with that pride in my voice, "Kypros". I am older, now much blood in the water, under the bridge, but some still ask me, "How can you live, with your neighbour when they are Turkish?". What can I say, it is all we have known, in my case for about two hundred fifty years.

I grew up in a "mixed" village, I spit, it is not "the way", I resent the term, to me it is ignorant, even after our liberation in 1960, labeled, in association willingly, but without choice, we were fools, all of us, like lambs to the slaughter, in 1974, my Uncle his son and all our family, many of our village, stayed, and like people all around the world we cheered to think that Turkey would stop this turmoil, but they came, and the rest is a horror story, where... over time... am I to say the guilty should not be broken... no!...but of the ones who stood and watched, I wish the courage, at least for one of them, to stand up and say, "I saw a war crime, I should be guilty, because I did nothing to stop it", "this" is the man I saw... hopefully, our own court can redress the crimes, with verdicts that provide our society custom that is far more refined. And for those survivors: guilty or victims, rested souls.

For Chapfallen;
I say you will get past the first page and read the rest of the constitution of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. It is a well written document, written by a Cypriot, Rauf Denktash, (and it should be and can be amended).
Now.
If you can imagine, Greek Cypriot people making a constitution for a government where Greek is first, like their counterpart, then you can imagine two governments, who can claim their fielty to the Republic of Cyprus, a third government, having a new Constitution which respects these peoples' equality, having a bicameral legislature for their representation, defending their sovereignty as Individuals; Cypriots, as EU members.

As you say, Greekturc or Turcgreek, or whatever "doesn't matter", it is an internal dialog, our external dialog, the matter of exchange, on this we are focused as though none of us can speak English. Simply put, each Community shall deal with their Minority(ies), because they will have one, and it will grow far more complex in the near term with our introduction into the EU. ( as two homogenous parts, or bi-communal; each community having several, or many, parts) one cannot expect things to stay the same.



The Parliament: (bi-cameral)


Lower House:

Representation by population, electoral ridings having a relationship to geography, but having an equal number of voters in each.

The voter chooses a person from their community who is independent of party support, who represents them with the other elected representatives in this house through a speaker, voting by consensus on legislation which is passed by the Upper House. Their special power is that the seats in committee, the government is obliged to fill from the members of this House. Can amend a Bill, to become law if voted in favour by the Upper House.


The Upper House:

100 seats, 50 for Turkish Cypriot representatives, and 50 for Greek Cypriot representatives. The leader of the House is the President and his Party, having won a majority of the seats, each voter in the country having voted for their Turkish Cypriot Representative, and their Greek Cypriot Representative, from two lists of candidates, the parties provide.

Each citizen having three votes, they are empowered with a government which cannot act against the State because of its transparency.

Geography, History, Politics. Your comment please.
_________________
Cyprus: three goverments, one Capital and Free.

The

All peoples seek freedom in their association, expression, and movement. A solution in Cyprus requires the reform of its Constitution to conform. And it has been expressed that both sides in this conflict seek a Bi-Zonal Bi-Communal Federation.

In my mind Bi-Zonal does not mean two parts, as Bi-Communal is not two communities apart.

Therefore, I have provided for the geographic representation of this desire as the two existing parts with spots on both. Bi-Zonal.

As a Cypriot, each citizen votes for the best representative thricely: one turcophone and one grecophone, from two slates, by Party, for the Upper House, where the government is led; and one independant representative not having Party support, for the Lower House where there is sober thought, in a Bi-Cameral Legislature.

and

As a Turkish Cypriot, or as a Greek Cypriot, one would vote for your representative in one of two legislatures, depending on where you live, a majority respectively; if you live in "that" part or in one of its spots; otherwise you are voting as a minority, but in this case neither is refused their voting rights, and all voters, as dwellers, are treated equally.

Bi-Communal

This is my idea in a nutshell.

Your comments, thank-you.
_________________
The greatest discovery of my generation is that a human being can alter his life by altering his attitudes of mind...
Williams James (1842-1910)

Cyprus: three goverments; one Capital and Free.


...And where is the Communal Assembly(Chamber...)... where are its Greek Cypriot representatives? ...Never happened, and as a result boring conversations like this.

Fact is Dag, Turkish Cypriots were ignored, the center of your conversation for about sixty years,... like their needs are different to yours.

Rhe, if I can call you Rhe, be wise. The name of the game is subjugation. It does not need another label. I seek to be free, you>>

The past is dead, (and not just you) get over it. Wake up, unfreeze, and give, as a Christian, or a Moslem, or a Jew, as a Buhdist, or a Human being, you have a gift called love, to serve through reason, suffer peace.

I say that Cypriots love their island. They are united in their desire to have a life where their efforts are toward its betterment. They want to have the same basic Human rights, and to expect a custom of Goodfaith and Respect. Free Association, Expression, and Movement.

My goal is to convince you that the repopulation is good for us, [(Right of Return, Settlers/Displaced) Turkish and Greek] and as people politically, I suggest you figure the system I am proposing, with the possibility of Greek nearing extinction, and a Moslem majority, by population, just beyond our lifetime.

It is surprising to me how people choose to be a something, rather than a person first. Do you seriously believe that with the end of this impasse that our urban centers would not be the same, whether they have a Grecophone or Turcophone predominance. I say, embrace the change that membership into the EU will bring. Prepare for the onslaught when there is peace in the Middle East. Don't you look forward to an end to Africa's pain? Will we be welcoming?
_________________
The greatest discovery of my generation is that a human being can alter his life by altering his attitudes of mind...
Williams James (1842-1910)

Cyprus: three goverments; one Capital and Free.

Cyprus can do better, however, defending itself, by providing to the 90 million Turks, one-tenth of the distance from Greece, and the greatest threat to their security, an ally, not against Greece, but from the destabilising influences in this world today.

I see the supermilitarisation of the island, as dep says, with our membership in NATO, and as a member of the EU with established links toward its security via Britain already, ...it is possible.

Let's have the nukes on the island, but no one is carrying a gun. Offshore military HQ, for the UN and etc. for lease, if you will. You do know that all the worlds communication traffic crosses on our little island, and that our maritime and banking rival the largest in the world.

The debate has been interesting, and most informative, but the discussion should be focused on the military defense of Turkey, and ending the threat that this State senses from the island of Cyprus. The proposal is a Treaty, necessarily requirng the recognition of the Republic of Cyprus, and its sovereignty over all the island.

The reform of its Constitution is desired by the government of the day. However its resolve to maintain for the vast majority, a Grecophonic nature, must be balanced with the desire of Turkish Cypriots for self determination. Divided and isolated from each other, now for almost fifty years, their lives lack free movement, association, and expression. Much of this is unnatural, and there is the great hope that human behaviour is for social-exchange, and that Denktash will be marked as a hero, maybe two hundred years from now, because he took the first step and opened the border.

Turkey has nothing to fear from these people, united and free from subjugation, to direct their own lives toward prosperity. Cypriots are the people who lead in socialisation, for millenia. They are a people who are inclusive, they are peace loving, and they are welcoming. Cyprus, its vital culture, to survive in this Modern world, must be self governing, because strategically it cannot belong to anyone. This gift the world has promised to them. Turkey's foreign affairs, has this issue, and others to resolve.

A Treaty today provides the most powerful regional economy, exchange, with the largest maritime service, their neighbour, both profiting, gaining long term security, stability, and mutual defense. Part of the comprehensive package, toward ending the Cyprus problem, it is a premise that provides a venue, for an international relation, with Turkey as the benefactor from this esteem.

Cypriots can identify themselves as Greek Cypriot or Turkish Cypriot if and only if the Republic of Cyprus, and its government are free from linquistic (ethnic) bias. As an identity, this reformation must reflect their proportional representation and their equality as founding partners, these peoples. A bi-cameral legislature will provide for this need. As individuals, and as Europeans they can expect a government which allows for their individuality and equality.

Greek Cypriots can look back without despair, if they themselves control a government as their Turkish counterpart, requiring three governments, so that their relations as Cypriots, externally are satisfied by one Government, meeting the norms of a higher authority, and internally, having two Governments to represent these people as communities, providing the service these communities desire, sovereign in their territory, as they please.

I think the greatest fear for Turkish Cypriots, is the possibility of being overwhelmed by the "Greekness" of the vast majority of people living on the island. This will soon be replaced by the fear of so many other peoples who find this little island of value to them personally. Ironically both societies will suffer the same fear unless there are suitable provisions made to accomadate having minorities with seperate needs, by their respective National Assemblies.

In 1974, I remember a map, in the newspaper, the island, the line which divides it in two, and little circles scattered here and there, over all its territory, Makarios and Denktash in one of their meetings, during those heady days. Recently, I read a quote from Mr. Papoudopoulos, (sorry for the spelling) the current President of the Republic, from his youth, describing the population of Turkish Cypriots warmly, as a people whose population was scattered like sand, tossed over a map so that the grains would cover its whole surface. Demographic maps, I have seen, prove this sentiment and the reasoning of their proposals.

I do not propose to replicate the past. However, these notions, indeed resolve much of the anxiety, which comes from the Right of Return, and resettlement, for so many, because it has its historical basis. "Cantons", satelite territories, would add to the balance which would be required so that each of the counterparts, Greek and Turkish, has a majority of people who see themselves this way, within their territory for their self-determination. They provide a setting in which all people can demonstrate their commitment toward Basic Human Rights. New communities will be founded, and in others people will return to their homes, as communities. None will lack service as they prefer, nearby; none will lack a choice for their representation, as they desire. Each gain in the diversity this will add to their respective cultures. Most importantly, the reciprocation of respect by these two adversaries, sustains a benefit, which allows for the inclusiveness our Age requires from each one of us as human beings.

Finally, I would like to add, that Turkey must resolve this political issue, to end the prejudice it causes to its own people, and to be in harmony with the rest of the world's States; a Republic of Cyprus, and all its people Cypriots, must exist, without which there is no peace.

# posted by BAZ @ Friday, September 15, 2006 0 comments Link Url$>#links">links to this post
Friday, August 18, 2006


I would like to propose to you that the city of Nicosia as we know it today will have a population of about ! million in forty years, it is entirely possible for Famagusta to swell the population with its opening, almost immediately, by another 250,000 people. Water that is potable is the greatest restriction to our growth. However if the strategic location of Cyprus is taken in mind, and recognising that this ability to function global exchange exists since millenia, we must be prepared to envision the future, which will be the natural evolution toward serving these needs.

So the question is this, dear readers, how much water does Cyprus have?

Without water as an issue, I would also like to know your ideas on population growth, potential figures for each city, based on which industry or service, where there is most likely growth in population, are there towns that will become cities, and which villages will become towns, if somehow a peace plan, from international players(as an example), created the solution to our plight, for an environment which is completely safe, freest, and a standard of living which continues to improve


Imagine a bag of jewels, ten to seventeen of them. Hold them in your hand and toss them over the map of Cyprus. Call them cantons

Those that fall in the south, are Turkish Cypriot. Similarly, those that fall in the north will be "Greek".

Allow for the right of return, and for the resettlement of displaced persons, and all that is lacking is constitutional reform, and the creation of a Greek Cypriot state, equal to the exisiting Turkish Cypriot state, able in providing service to their citizens in their territory and these cantons.



It is very, possible that the demographics of the island will change significantly, especially with Turkey, because it is so close, and the cultural differences are fewer, to these emigrants' other choices. Also, the relationships that Turkophones in Cyprus will cultivate will include the interests of other Muslim people, which will further stimulate interest in immigration.

But the demands for potable water are already stretched to the point where it is rationed, and so our success, at providing a state, for the peaceable enjoyment of its' citizens, which allows for our great potential, is linked, both being the most basic of our needs.

If we assume, that the age of machines is over, that truly, we have entered a new age, whereby machines are built, without limitation, because of our abilities to process the information, which leads to their realisation, then water is not a problem. The huge advantages for us to be inclusive as a people, to other people, invites so much good from the contemporary world, (as well as the crime, and displays of greed, that come with it), that it is most prudent to be a leader in these matters of sustainability. If we do not want to be overwhelmed by a reality, where war is over, not just in our tiny state, but in all the states at war, to which we are the geographic center, then our constitution must be made resilient, to allow for our preeminence, in societies emerging, with needs like our own, to which our help will be greatly needed.

I would like to know, if you are living in Cyprus right now, while you are looking out your window, have things remained unchanged, even if you don't want them to change, as it is with the Dutch, can you imagine things unchanged, when there is accord? What will these changes be?

Also, someone, please post a map to which we can refer, thank-you.




http://www.financialmirror.com/more_new ... 83&type=st

Good news in Africa, and in the Middle East will encourage great mobility of these people. Europe and our inclusion in the EU will provide more immigration. The demographics will surely change. There is a great moment in our near future, and if it is a success it will head in this direction.


What has a population of over a Billion in the year 2107? If you thought of the USA then you are correct; only three times larger than it is today.

Demographics will surely change on this island, Cyprus. With peace in the Middle East and greater stability in Africa, we can expect an explosion in its population.

Interestingly, we must choose our future, today.

So I ask you, where would another 3 million people live, 100 years from now? Who do you expect them to be? Which small towns will grow to become our cities?
_________________



Malthus would say it is a natural evolution, because of the island's geographic position. Do we have enough water, the most precious resource, for this population to grow, without misery or conflict? That is an important question. Denial of what is evident will only serve to exacerbate our 'problem'.


One piece, it seems, is not enough for all of us either.

Therefore, geographically, the land of this island, having to be redistributed to those who will be without homes, and to those who wish to return to their homes, it must be divided in many parts. They, the displaced, can have their communities without destroying the social-fabric of the territory which surrounds them, spotting the whole island, as enclaves.

If Cypriots are willing to live as a minority otherwise, then three governments will defend the sovereignty they have over their lives. One where Cypriots can see themselves as Individuals, united and equal, as a State, and two National Assemblies, to serve their citizens, as people at their daily lives.


By definition, the word bi-zonal cannot mean a whole divided in two. There has never been a clear description of our leaders' intent, with respect to this issue of the Cyprus Problem. Accepting the 'fait accompli' of the Turkish Army's illegal acts is hardly a solution which the rest of the world can benefit from.


For the Republic of Cyprus to exist in the mind of Turkey, there must exist a 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus', and for that to exist, in my mind, there must be a 'GRSC': this would be bi-communal.

For there to be a Right of Return, and Rule of Law, there must be a recognition from both sides that restitution in this affair means a return to Turkish communities in its southern part, (and homes instead of houses for the Settlers), as it is likely that this will occur when Greek communities are reformed in the north.

Enclaves, call them cantons, pocketing each of the two parts we have today, will serve to divide the island, in a manner where free association, expression and movement exists equitably, in many parts, without destroying the integrity of the two communities as they exist today, gaining diversity and choice: this would be bi-zonal.

Therefore, a State can exist, devoid of bias, religious or otherwise, where its citizens can stand united as equals, for their betterment as individuals. And (at least) two Peoples sustain a National identity.
_________________
For the Republic of Cyprus to exist in the mind of Turkey, there must exist a 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus', and for that to exist, in my mind, there must be a 'GRSC': this would be bi-communal.

For there to be a Right of Return, and Rule of Law, there must be a recognition from both sides that restitution in this affair means a return to Turkish communities in its southern part, (and homes instead of houses for the Settlers), as it is likely that this will occur when Greek communities are reformed in the north.

Enclaves, call them cantons, pocketing each of the two parts we have today, will serve to divide the island, in a manner where free association, expression and movement exists equitably, in many parts, without destroying the integrity of the two communities as they exist today, gaining diversity and choice: this would be bi-zonal.

Therefore, a State can exist, devoid of bias, religious or otherwise, where its citizens can stand united as equals, for their betterment as individuals. And (at least) two Peoples sustain a National identity.
_________________


How about English as the first language of our State, so that the respect for Greek and Turkish can be sustained by each community through their own form of self representation; each respecting three Official Languages, each as a society, accomodating the needs of their citizens inclusively.

I cannot agree to a system of State which assigns to its citizens an identity which may define them for unequal treatment.

Imagine, in my world, you are a grecophone living in the North (or a tourcophone livung in the South); not living in an enclave:
You vote for a turcophone (grecophone) representative in a National Assembly as a minority where Turkish (Greek) is first, yet enshrined in its Constitution is recognition for the provision of services in other languages.

there is no fair solution without repopulation of the island.

Tearing the fabric which we have provided for ourselves for fifty years now is not a good idea. However, in terms of tailoring its defficiency to suit the needs of this society, pocketing the island is not a bad idea.

Imagine, in my world, having three votes, for your representation in the State, (the Republic of Cyprus), having a leader, our President, whose party has won a majority of seats, in an Upper House which is evenly divided, having the same number of seats for its turcophone and its grecophone representatives, elected from two slates of candidates, where each party must strive to provide for each citizen their choice of one Turkish Representative and one Greek Representative. And imagine the transparency of this government if it had to fill the seats in its committes with members of the Lower House, the third vote, who elected as independants without National Party support or affiliation, debate their findings, and vote for legislation, through their speaker by consensus, they are the representatives of their ridings and its population, for Good Government.
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What is agreed upon is bi-zonal and bi-communal. This does not mean two parts or two mutually exclusive governing authorities.

Secondly, we gained a form of autonamy because the world saw the subjugation of Cypriots as an abberation, contrary to the rights of individuals, in their pursuits as Human Beings. The solution which was agreed upon may have had its flaws but this is the premise which has preoccupied the UN for so long.

Thirdly, as Human Beings, and as the dwellers of this island, we have a responsibility to the rest of the world to find a solution to our problem which promotes the betterment of conditions for not just ourselves but toward all people.

We do not have the luxury of acting selfishly, or for the benefit of one group against the other because this thinking only promotes the intolerance which has caused so much suffering, here and in other places around the globe in conflict.

We need to reconsider the enterprise of governing ourselves so that it functions without the stigma of ethnicity. As a modern state moving forward, especially in the European context, we are neither turcophomes or grecophones first. Rather, we are people, all the same, with the same desires, having the same capacity to provide toward each other goodwill.

Greek Cypriots have no right to their dominion over the Republic of Cyprus. They have, on the other hand as much right to self determination as their brethren, the Turkish Cypriot community.

The Turkish Army occupies the land, and there is no reason to disallow hundreds of thousands displaced by this imbroglio their dignity or their Basic Human Rights. Greek Cypriots must reciprocate for the same reasons, the indignity wrought upon the displaced ten years earlier.

Enclave is not a dirty word. It is the core to a solution made in Cyprus if the two zones have many parts and if Cypriots can identify with two of three governments for their sovereignty as Cypriots and as members of one of two ethnicities.

Real is a solution which provides amicable relations between the two national bodies which are so important to our sustinance while we remain united as people for the freedom which is the desire of each and every soul.


The fairest solution to the Cyprus Problem is Bi- Communal and Bi-Zonal.

This means three governments and many parts.

BI-Zonal: The island divided as it is. In each territory enclaves, (several to many, big and/or small) dotting the landscape, where their counterpart can sustain a majority... which will provide for a fair redistribution of the land, without destroying the fabric of the existing cultures. On the contrary, it will provide for the diversity of each peoples.

BI-Communal: Two National Assemblies to govern the two Zones, Sovereign by Charter over their people's internal affairs, and guaranteed by Constitutional reform, each elected by all its citizens in a manner where one language is chosen to be an Official Language, but that their services can be provided in their counterpart's language, and in English. Thus, all Cypriots, Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots alike, can open their society to their global partners (and to each other) as peoples who are inclusive.

And

One Republic of Cyprus, for their governance as Individuals, European members, and as a State. Each citizen having a right to vote for three representatives (one Turkish Cypriot and one Greek Cypriot, as well as an Independant sitting in the lower house, being bi-cameral, having an upper house which is equally divided, where the leader (Greek Cypriot or Turkish Cypriot) must win a majority of seats, representing a Party, where they, in each riding, provide two candidates (one on each slate),as equals, representing their commitment toward bettering the condition of all people.
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Stav, your idea of a bicameral legislature is an excellent proposal. I choose however, to have the legislatures filled by members who must face the electorate, whose credibility rests with the people who elect them.

The Upper House is divided as you describe, equally. In my view Parties will form that base their programs on values which appeal to their whole constituency, rather than the ethnic majority, because for their candidates' election, each citizen has two votes, voting for these members from two slates of candidates, one turcophome and one grecophone. The leader of the Party who wins the majority of these seats gains power, and becomes our President for the duration.

The Lower House is our countervaling power, a chamber of second sober thought. Its members are Independant, without affiliation to the National Parties, they are voted to this House by their community, 'one man one vote', because of their aptitute, integrity, and/or in recognition of their achievement in Civic Affairs.

The leader has their committees, but there are seats to be filled with members of the Lower House. Thus, with their speaker elected by them, and a vote by consesus, their debate will inform the population on the issues, which surround the progress of legislative acts, and the transparency of their Government.

Three votes, that's Bi-Communal; not one vote, many votes, but two choices.

I would like to propose that the language of the legislatures is English, making available translations/ transcriptions available at least in the two remaining Official Languages.

I am afraid that in your hypothesis, the weakness is in the term "senior member", and the possibility that changing demographics could affect its balance.

....honestly, my heart is not into sorting it out right now but i post this stuff for you to read.
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Postby denizaksulu » Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:25 am

zan wrote:
phoenix wrote:
zan wrote:
phoenix wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:
phoenix wrote:
denizaksulu wrote:
phoenix wrote:
bilako22 wrote:Cyprus -Turkish troops = Greeks beating the shit out of TCs.


Cyprus + Turks = Extinction of TCs



We praise you for your intellgence then you join in the 'magic formula club.

I thought you would be the first person to point out that

one fig + one cucumber does not give you anything else other than one fig and one cucumber. Tut tut tut. :lol: :lol:

How are you by the way. Still recovering from Hogmannay by the looks. Way below par I'd say. I wish you a speedy recovery. Perhaps your imminent departure to Cyprus is unsettling you. :lol: I am sure there will be a warm welcome waiting for you, somewhere. :lol:


:lol: Care to sort out this fine mess you have made deniz? :lol:

(If you look back, I was the first to start with the formula :D . . . without realising that so many of you do not have a mathematical clue).



OK mathematical genius.

Prove to me that one fig plus one cucumber does not result in one fig and one cucumber.

Others have used the formulas prir to you Phoenix mou.


As a Genetic Engineer who tinkered with plant genes for 9 years I can turn your one fig or one cucumber to millions of figs and cucumbers, minituarized or blown up to gigantic proportions.

I can insert genes from the fig into the cucumber and produce "figumbers". :D

As for the formulae I believe you will find on page 2 of this thread,


phoenix wrote:The solution to the Cyprus problem is the removal of the Turkish troops ....

Simple algebra:

Cyprus - Turks = Solution

.... and thank you for coming out to Cyprus to support me with garlands . . . or where you planning to propel them from the UK :lol:


. . . . It's not something I am bothered about, just defending myself against your rude assertion that I joined in with your formulae uninvited when I was present at the conception . . . :lol:


Isn't that the same as:

Cyprus =Turks
.............Cyprus


:?

Zan dear, don't even try to do maths! You are the creative, artistic, poet type :lol:

Now, sleep well . . . . . I am definitely off now, to do some reading to quieten my thoughts, perchance to dream of sweet things . . . 8)



Thanks...I think... :?

I like Bilako22' above but how about this one:

Cyprus = Cyprus
...................2



Bizim rezil gari, hiyar ve inciri anlayamadi. :lol: :lol:
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Postby zan » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:08 am

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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