Cyprus-Forum.com

[T_C]

Have you not been seeing the news and how many CHILDREN are killing eachother everyday in the UK?

Funny you don't see that in the same light...oh but wait the others are crazy Muslims living in the dark ages who are killing people for their religion...they should be more like us Westerners and kill for drugs, sex and money instead!

[cyprusgrump]

Have you not been seeing the news and how many CHILDREN are killing eachother everyday in the UK?

Funny you don't see that in the same light...oh but wait the others are crazy Muslims living in the dark ages who are killing people for their religion...they should be more like us Westerners and kill for drugs, sex and money instead!

How many today for instance… or yesterday?

[Southerner]

Have you not been seeing the news and how many CHILDREN are killing eachother everyday in the UK?

Funny you don't see that in the same light...oh but wait the others are crazy Muslims living in the dark ages who are killing people for their religion...they should be more like us Westerners and kill for drugs, sex and money instead!

Yes but none of us are saying how good the west or Christianity is, so get your points right, it is plonkers such quamersland (pox be unto him) coming on here trying to tell us that islam is a religion of peace; when it really is a religion of pieces, the pieces being of human bodies.
Nobody came on here promoting Christianity or the west, Quamersland came on here promoting islam slagging off western morals and being critical of the Chreistian faith.

[Tim Drayton]

It doesn't really matter if we are addressing Wasim or Ahmad, although it would be nice to have some idea who you are talking to.

I am glad that this individual has finally managed to show some human decency and is pepared to reject the argument that a Saudi employer may rape his housemaid based on the claim that she is his "right-hand possession".

This still leaves us with the question of why Sharia law permits this kind of abuse to take place. This is the question we have to ask because brother Ahmad ... or is it Wasim? ... has made it clear that he wishes to impose Sharia law on us in Europe. The real point is that this imam who serially raped his housemaid went scot-free and continues to run a training establishment for Muslim clerics.

If we want to discuss Sharia law in Saudi Arabia, there is a very well documented case where the Indonesian embassy hired a top-notch Saudi lawyer for one of its citizens, Nour Miyati.

This case began, as reported by the Arab News (NOT a Western media outlet), when this Indonesian housemad was hospitalised:

"JEDDAH, 23 March 2005 — A 25-year-old Indonesian woman who came to Saudi Arabia as a guest worker will have several of her fingers, toes and part of her right foot amputated because of gangrene after being tied up for a month in a bathroom by her Saudi sponsor, who also apparently beat her severely, injuring her eye and knocking several of her teeth out."

This, seemingly, was a punishment for not cleaning the house properly, and she was also left without food for the time she was tied up. Amazingly, Nour Miyati was subsequently sentenced to 79 lashes for falsely accusing her sponsor and his wife of torturing her! (I suppose she gave herself gangrene). However, the top-notch lawyer hired by the embassy successfully appealed this ruling and the poor maid avoided punishment.

Lawyer, Nasser Al-Dandani, stated, “This proves the integrity of the Saudi judicial system,”.

Her sponsor, by the way, was found to be innocent, but his wife was found guilty of certain minor transgressions - but not of tying the maid up for a month (the gangrene was claimed to have been caused by an illness which the maid was already suffering from when she came to Saudi!).

As I said, this case is very well documented, and I can post pages of details of this trial here if you really want to debate the way Sharia law works in Saudi Arabia.

The reason I keep raising these points is not necessarily to show that there are a lot of bad people in Saudi Arabia, but because these cases all show that Sharia law permits gross violations of human rights to occur in a way that would be impossible in European countries. Yes, there may well be a Westerner wicked enough to tie up his housemaid for a month. However, there is no way that such a person would walk scot-free from a court anywhere in Europe given the amount of evidence that existed here to demonstrate the employer's guilt. You are arguing that we should adopt Sharia law. I say the points I have raised all show that Sharia law stinks and the legal systems in modern, secular countries protect human rights much better. The onus is on anybody who wants us to adopt Sharia law to demonstrate why it is better.

As I have asked before, what is wrong with the secular rule of law as practised in Europe? This system guarantees freedom of conscience to everyone. There is not a single European country in which Muslims may not openly practise their religion and also set up private schools in which they may educate their children along Islamic lines. Let me once more quote chapter 109 of the Quran:

1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!
2. I worship not that which ye worship,
3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
6. To you be your Way, and to me mine.

What is wrong, in the spirit of verse 6 above, in me going my way and you going your way? Why do have to impose your way (Sharia law) on me?

[Tim Drayton]

This is what a SAUDI ARABIAN blogger has to say about the Nour Miyati case. There are plenty of people in Saudi who can see that there are serious abuses going on and want to do see change. Why are you in such denial, QAMERSLAND?

http://nzinghas.blogspot.com/2005/03/do ... oyees.html

I was going to write a bit about having maids and drivers here in Saudi. Then I read about Nour Miyati, a house maid that was so badly abused by her employers that she has to undergo amputation for several limbs. She was severely beaten,tied up and locked in a bathroom for a month. Gangrene set in and now she has to undergo amputation, rehabilitation and a slew of other medical procedures as well as be disfigured for the rest of her life. As the story is told it appears her sponsor came home one day and was peeved because she hadn't cleaned the entire house before he got there. As of the time I'm writing this, the people responsible have not been arrested, they are being questioned only and this is under 'investigation'.

Its time Saudi gets much more serious on such crimes, which do happen way to often in this country. The abuse comes in many forms, verbally, physically including at times rape, being overworked, and not paid their salaries. Recently they have made some changes, like banning those who have abused their maids from sponsoring anyone else. Of course they are free to simply have a family member sponsor a maid for them, so it isn't affective.

These maids and other cheap manual laborers that come into this country, mainly from Asia and parts of Africa, only want to make a living. The pay is very minimal, average maid pay is 600 SR (160 USD) a month, and the hours are extremely long. Most maids are up at dawn and don't go to bed unless the employers allow them. So that means if a maid works for a typical Saudi family that is up late, 2 am -3 am the maid is up, her sleep is little to none. This was a comment from Laqeesha (our maid) that when she worked for a Saudi family in Riyadh she was up most times until 1-2 am and still expected to be up at the crack of dawn to start her day all over again.

Now I can't get Laqeesha to sleep in to save my life, its just an internal clock for her. After fajr prayer (before sunrise) she is up and is going for the rest of the day, I used to take it personally when I told her to sleep in and she wouldn't. That is until I found out it this is her routine when she is home, so I can't expect to change her. She is very happy that our kids are in bed by 7 pm and 8:30 pm on the weekends, her days are much shorter. And I don't expect her, nor want her, to clean toilets every single day. I don't really care if the day goes by and you haven't gotten to all the housework because you've been busy doing other things. Perhaps this is a reflection of my own life, I used to clean houses and watch other peoples children, I know how difficult it is. I've explained that to her, and I told her I wouldn't ask her to do anything I wouldn't do and I wouldn't expect anything more from her than I would be willing to give.

Perhaps if Saudi families cleaned a few toilets of their own and waited on other people they would have a bit more empathy for the work maids do. I highly doubt that but I feel optimistic this morning. There is an overall problem with a mentality that sees maids and other hired help as 'less' than or not on the same 'level'. And this is far from it being just Saudis, contrary to the hate filled garbage being spewed on various blogs. This same mentality exists in most privileged households that have hired domestic help. You don't see the maid of the very rich in the US sitting at their dinner table, swimming in their pool, or not working long hard hours. The mentality is still present, the difference is that there is a recourse for abuse in the US when there hardly is any here.

If more Saudis, or anyone for that matter, who abused their domestic help were brought to public punishment there may be less of it. If children were prevented from showing a total lack of respect to their family maids and drivers perhaps the cycle wouldn't continue. Yes children have totally no respect for maids and treat them as any obnoxious child treats others. I've seen children, kick, hit, and bite their maids, and although this is a reflection of children's behavioral phases, the difference is no one corrects them. That is unless I'm around, I will yell at other peoples children if they behave disrespectfully towards others. I don't care whose child it is, and yes I do expect others to do the same to my children if they see them doing something wrong and I don't. Correct them, let them know what they did was wrong and they can't get away with it, it isn't acceptable and they will have to change their behavior.

There are many documented cases of abuse of migrant workers within Saudi Arabia. Human rights organizations do recognize it and speak about it. But there is really no public addressing of this issue in Saudi, until now. Yes the case of Nour Miyati is making headlines, more columnists are seeking to not only speak about it, but calling on the government to actually do something. A few simple steps can actually bring about change.

1. Bring harsher punishments to those found to be abusive. And that doesn't mean to buy their way out of it for its simply to easy and doesn't bring change. The punishments should be given publicly and equally, so if a maid is raped by a Saudi let him meet the same exact punishment that say a migrant worker would if he raped a Saudi woman.

2. Not just ban the sponsor from bringing in another maid, ban him from living in a house that has a maid. And enforce it, just like a parole officer in the US would enforce that a parolee not live where he/she shouldn't.

3. Make all labor laws applicable to migrant workers, at the moment this is not the case. Under the labor laws a person can not go without pay for months or years at a time but they do not apply to domestic employees.

4. Create agencies that are accessible to the workers to address these problems. If a maid is raped she shouldn't have to wonder where to go. All contact information should be known by her before she comes to Saudi Arabia. The agencies should be open and available to them when they need help and work for the benefit of the migrant worker, not for the Saudi employee.


Maids have enough to contend with, leaving their families and loved ones for two years at a time. Walking into a strangers home, living with strange people not related to them. Hoping that they receive payment as agreed and on time. There is enough worry for them without the added unknown horror of abuse in any form. These men and women have the right, as all others in the world, to seek employment and not be taken advantage of by anyone, Muslim or otherwise.

And it isn't a greater shame for me that Muslims are at the giving end of abuse, for it is equally shameful no matter who does it. But for non Muslims to use such events to make all Muslims, especially Gulf Arabs into heinous monsters is revolting. There majority of migrant workers don't go through abuse, they are paid on time, they receive adequate housing, and are treated respectfully. Yes, there are a significant number of workers who are abused in one fashion or another, but to use their plight to promote hatred is just as ugly as a person who abuses them. Exploitation happens in many forms and that should be remembered.

For the specific case of Nour Miyati, its my hope that justice will be done. It is my hope that the employer and his wife both be charged and punished in relation to this horrendous crime. As for my maid, she's extremely happy here in our home. She will return to Indonesia by next Ramadhan and send back a family member to work for us because she has decided not to return. From working with us she has built a new home and is now saving extra money for future needs.
POSTED BY NZINGHA AT 1:56 PM

[Southerner]

The dark side of Islam

If anyone from the muslim supporters club answers the above frightening post it will be the usual pre recorded garbage of "islam is a peaceful religion no true muslim would do this" it was obviously womans fault for behaving like whore, followed by 100 lines of what is wrong with the Bible.

Any of those usual garbage answers are nulified by the fact that a true muslim court tried the case.

[Southerner]

Have you not been seeing the news and how many CHILDREN are killing eachother everyday in the UK? :

Have you not seen how many of these are not idigenous UK people but from ethnic minorities especialy in London.
The Home Secretary stated this weekend that she would not feel safe out walking at night in certain areas of London.

[shahmaran]

To be honest, most of the petty street crimes are committed by the lower class Brit youths who walk around picking on foreigners, children of some greasy welfare sucking illeterate and racist family.

Not because i wouldn't consider the Asians who have been living there for generations to be as British as the next "indigenous" Brit walking by, but only for the sake of your argument.

[BC Numismatics]

Southerner,instead of slagging off TRUE Muslims,you should be slagging off at the nutcases that support Al-Qaeda (who aren't really Muslims at all) & the Nazis of the Pope of Rome's Hell-bound cult.

Here's Pope Bentdick's propaganda website in which he spreads his messages of hate; http://www.vatican.va .

Aidan.

[Southerner]

To be honest, most of the petty street crimes are committed by the lower class Brit youths who walk around picking on foreigners, children of some greasy welfare sucking illeterate and racist family.

Not because i wouldn't consider the Asians who have been living there for generations to be as British as the next "indigenous" Brit walking by, but only for the sake of your argument.

What I was refering too wasn't the petty street crimes but the killings that are going in reply to what T_C said in his response, it is a fact that the highest percentage of the killers are from ethnic minorities in drug or turf wars.
I won't respond or enlarge on this as I. feel it is now going off thread