Cyprus-Forum.com

[rajput49]

looks like there is MEMBERS TRACK DIVISION OF MI- 6 CYPRUS BRANCH looking for members.it would have been lot better if they release their energies for some useful purpose like reading of what points are raised rather than looking for who posts.it doesnt matter if qamersland is in limasol or nicosia or saudio arabia or ireland what is importnat is what points are made.try to find truth rather than find persons.

[cyprusgrump]

We are all still waiting for the truth to be presented and proven to us rather than some bizarre ancient texts copied and pasted here…

Strange you should turn up at the same time as QAMERSLAND

[rawk]

it is a well known scientific fact that man was not on this earth 5 billion years ago yet Zakir Qamersland (AKA Karzi) claims that the sun is 5 billion years old and was created in the same week the God created evrything else.

According to a recent reply of his Quamerslands christian or surname is Zakir;, zakir turned into an anagram is Karzi which is servicemens terminlogy for the shithouse.

With the crap he keeps coming out with I cannot think of anything more appropriate.

Southerner,
The Zakir here is just the author of an article that our friend QAMERSLAND has copied and pasted, I am afraid.

I found the following advert by a person looking for work in Cyprus at this site:

http://www.cyprus-shopping.com/jobs_in_ ... chive2.htm

Date:
5/27/2003
Yasu, thanks to visit my advertisement, My Name Is Wasim and i belong to pakistan, i am looking for job according to my qualification.i am married in cyprus and have permission to work. if you want know more about me email: [email protected]

Sound familiar?

So, Wasim, if you are the Qamersland who is posting here and you are from Pakistan, shame on you for not acknowledging that your compatriots are treated little better than animals by Gulf Arabs when they go to that part of the world to work.
More to the point, if you like Sharia law and think that countries like Saudi Arabia set shining examples for the rest of humanity, why not go and work there? Saudi and the rest of the Gulf Countries employ large numbers of Pakistani workers. I am sure I could easily arange a job for you in Qatar with the contacts I have there. Just PM me.
Even more to the point, if you love Sharia law so much, you now have it in Pakistan, so why did you feel the need to leave?

Tim

I don't think Wasim is qamersland, [email protected] was the email for the El-Kebir Mosque in Limassol until it was removed on 08/01/08. The website has been updated again, the mosque now has a Shaik and Brother Ahmed now comes from Egypt.

My guess is that this Wasim used the mosque and they offered to receive emails for him in searching for work.

http://www.islamicfinder.org/getitWorld ... 7882&lang=

rawk

[QAMERSLAND]

I see QAMERSLAND is still determined to ignore all my questions and instead is coming up with the tired old argument that every development in modern science and technology can be found in the Quran. So be it.

For one thing, I raised a question about this many pages ago - it went unanswered as usual - which was:

If, as you claim, the Quran contains all the knowledge obtained by modern science, why have the Arabs living in the Arabian desert who have supposedly had this knowledge at their fingertips for 1400 years failed to make any scientific or technological breakthroughs.? Why are they in the pitiful position today of having to bring in Westerners to run their oil and natural gas industries because they are totally incapable of doing it for themselves?

As a related question, why is it that whenever there is a new scientific discovery or technological development Islamic scholars rush to the Quran and manage to dig up a verse that supposedly predicts this new discovery. If the Quran is such a treasure store of scientific knowledge, why not prove it and predict some discovery or invention that will be made in the near future?

What about the cases where the Quran gets it spectacularly wrong? There is a myth in all the monotheist religions that the heavens and earth were created in seven days. Modern science now tells us that there was a gap of about 20 billion years between the time the heavens appeared (i.e. the big bang) and the time the planet Earth appeared. The figure of seven days in the creation myth is out by a factor of 100 000 000 000 times. Some error!

Finally, to prove that I can also cut and paste, here is an interesting analysis of what the Quran has to say about the creation of the universe. I am indebted to Jochen Katz for this:

Qur'an Contradiction:

Six or eight days of creation?

Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly say that God created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But then there is also the following passage:



2 Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in TWO Days
And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
+
He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it,
and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measured therein all things
4 to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR Days
in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).

Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky,
and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth:
"Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly."
They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
+
2 So He completed them as seven firmaments in TWO Days,
and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command.
And We adorned the lower heaven with lights,
and (provided it) with guard.
Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.
-- Sura 41:9-12 (Yusuf Ali)

= 8 altogether these are EIGHT Days.

Two days for the creation of the earth, then four days to fill the earth with mountains, blessings and nourishment for all its inhabitants, and in the end two more days to create the seven heavens and create the stars in them. This adds up to 2+4+2 = 8 days in contradiction to the 6 days mentioned in the other verses.

The structure is very clear: These are the three "layers" which are created bottom up:


*** FIRMAMENTS [the sky, the "roof" over the earth] in 2 days
----------
BLESSINGS [filling the earth with everything needed for life] in 4 days
---------
=== The EARTH [the foundation] completed in 2 days


Yusuf Ali starts out his commentary with "This is a difficult passage..." before he tries to explain away the problem. But it just doesn't look like the first two days are part of the four day period since the second period presupposes the existence of the earth which is now to be filled after it had been created.

Had the first period been four and the second two days, the second could be included in the first, since "filling the earth" is part of "creating the earth", but the other way around doesn't make sense. The earth that isn't existing yet cannot be filled. But mathematically it is just not possible to include four days in two days. And it is very clear from the text that the first two days are connected with "creating" the next four days are characterized by "putting ON it", "bestowing on it", "giving them".

That verse 9 and 10 describe different stages is further supported by the text structure since the two phases are "separated" by the second line of verse 9 asking a rhetorical question to the listener/reader based on what has been done in this first stage. Before it goes on to look at the second stage of creation.

That is how the structure of the text presents itself (to the reader without an agenda to fit it into six days).

The full explanation from Yusuf Ali's footnote 4470 is:


The Commentators understand the "four Days" in verse 10 to include the two Days in verse 9, so that the total for the universe comes to six Days. This is reasonable, because the processes described in verses 9 and 10 form really one series. In one case it is the creation of the formless matter of the earth; in the other case it is the gradual evolution of the form of the earth, its mountains and seas, and its animal and vegetable life, with the "nourishment in due proportion", proper to each.
As explained, I don't think this explanation is acceptable. But I would welcome a clearer presentation based on the text by anybody who can give one.

Yusuf Ali reports this as THE opinion of the commentators. For the major commentators there does not even seem to exist the possibility of this second attempt below given by some Muslims to reconcile the number of days from eight to six:


Here, the commentators generally have been confronted with this question: If it is admitted that the creation of the earth took two days and the setting up of the mountains and placing of the provisions and blessings in it took four days, and the creation of the heavens, took another two days, the total number of the days would be eight, whereas at several places in the Quran Allah has said that the creation of the earth and heavens took six days in all. (For example, see 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59). This question can easily be answered as follows:
The two days of the creation of earth are not separable from the two days in which this universe as a whole was created. If we consider the following verses, we see that in them the creation of both the earth and the heavens has been mentioned together, and then it has been stated that Allah made the seven heavens in two days. These seven heavens imply the whole universe, one part of which is also our earth. Then, when like the other countless stars and planets of the universe this earth also took the shape of a unique globe within two days, Allah began to prepare it for animate creatures, and in four days created in it all those provisions, which have been mentioned in the above verse.

It is interesting to note that this second theory is sharply contradictory to the (usual) one given by Yusuf Ali, who includes the first two days in the second period of four days.

Why did Yusuf Ali not think that explanation was at least worth mentioning? In other difficult passages he does give several options on how different scholars have explained it. The very fact that there exist contradictory explanations defies the above remark that this problem could "easily" be explained this way.

Anyway. Above I have expressed my doubts about the validity of Yusuf Ali's "harmonization", So let me explain why this explanation also falls short of being satisfactory for several reasons:

The beginning of verse 11 is translated by Pickthall and Shakir by "THEN turned he to the heavens..." which does for sure indicate a temporal sequence. For example Pickthal:


Then He turned to the heaven, which was only smoke at that time. He said to the heaven and the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly."
It is specifically said, that the heavens were only smoke "at that time" (as this translation says it) or "when IT was smoke" or "and IT was vapor" (as others say) [i.e. no stars and planets formed together yet out of the smoke], which is stated in contrast to the earth whose formation was already finished as described in the immediately preceeding verses. If all of it were to be smoke and the forming of the earth and the heavens is a parallel action, then it would have to be something like "He turned to the heavens and the earth, when THEY were only like smoke ..." but that is not so, the smoke stage explicitely only refers to the heaven while the earth is addressed as a "finished" entity when God calls heaven and earth together. The earth was finished, only the firmament or "roof" was left to be finished up, and "all of it to be pulled together".

Is that not a fair interpretation?

That the earth is finished before God turns to the creation of the heaven is confirmed in Sura 2:29 which says,


He it is Who hath created for you all that is on earth.
Then He turned to the heaven, and made them into seven heavens.
This makes again clear that all that is in/on the earth is created BEFORE God turns to the creation of the seven heavens. God cannot create things ON the earth before the earth itself is in existence. The Qur'an explicitly denies the second of the above proposed theories trying to solve the problem by identifying the first and the last two days.

Having gotten a Muslim's response that the word "thumma" translated above as "then" can also mean "and" and not necessarily indicates an "after" in time, I want to respond that in this verse, the meaning is crystal clear to be a sequence. It doesn't even depend on the word "then" but the verb itself indicates the sequence of doing one thing and then TURNING to the next. If several tasks are done parallel then there is no "turning" from on to the other.

Furthermore, there is yet to be found a verse in the Qur'an where "thumma" does signify a "parallelism" and not a "sequence".

The existance of contradictory explanations is always the result of confusion and the sign that no theory is really fitting the data. If one explanation would really make full sense, then all others would have been abandoned long ago. This is not the case. The problem is still there and there is no solution that really captures the features of the text as it is given into a coherent interpretation.

I acknowledge that I am not able to read the Arabic and I investigated this passage from the English translations only but the translators are experts in the Arabic language and usually one can trust them. I invite anybody who can give a clear exposition based on the (Arabic) text which makes good sense and solves the problem. But reading several translations which all agree on the basic features of the text, I do feel that my interpretation is coherent with the text, and all would be fine if this were the only text in the Qur'an about creation of heavens and earth, but since other Qur'an passages say that it was six days and not eight, therefore it is indeed a rather obvious problem.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But this scenario also has its scientific problems. If we want to believe that the earth was fashioned and filled with life first before the "smoke" was gathered into forming the heavens [stars, planets] then this contradicts very clearly all (current) scientific theories of astronomy.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Further there is a hadith in Sahih Muslim, Chapter MCLV, The beginning of creation and the creation of Adam, Hadith No. 6707:


Abu Huraira reported that Allah's Messenger (mpbuh) took hold of my hands and said: Allah the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and He caused animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam (pbuh) after 'Asr on Friday; the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, ie. between afternoon and night.
From Saturday to Friday there are seven days. Now this doesn't say that these are all the days of creation, but there are at least seven days, maybe eight or more. But it does disagree without reconciliation with the account of the six day creation. And within these seven days Allah hasn't done anything on the heavens yet.

Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 3, Number 1041 & 1042 also mention the creation of Adam on Friday. This does not square with the interpretation of days as "long periods". A Friday is not longer than a day and the other weekdays are not either.

In Tafsir Al-Jalalyn we find this explanation:



41:9 2 days meaning Sunday and Monday
41:10 4 days meaning Tuesday and Wednesday

[fourth day instead of four days? he declares it to be two days, clearly
in order to avoid just the above pointed out difficulty. He probably
means that God created "the earth AND what is in it" in 4 days, just as
Yusuf Ali reports it as the general opinion of the commentators.]

41:12 2 days meaning Thursday and Friday.


In any case, we do see that both the above quoted hadith as well as this tafsir take the days literally, contradicting several "modern Muslims" who rather want to interpret these days as "periods" or "epochs". But obviously Muhammad himself as well as the early commentators did not see it that way.

The tafsir in contradiction to the hadith seems to confess that Saturday is the Sabbath [day of rest] like in the Bible.

Lets finish the topic of slavery and then we come to talk about the creation of the earth. it is again misconception. i read and follow Dr Zakir and his authentic research about Islam. He is a medical doctor by professional training, Dr. Zakir Naik is renowed as a dynamic international orator on Islam and Comparative Religion. Dr. Zakir Naik clarifies Islamic viewpoints and clears misconceptions about Islam, using the Qur'an, authentic Hadith and other religious Scriptures as a basis, in conjunction with reason, logic and scientific facts. He is 41 years old.

In the last 6 years (by the year 2002), Dr. Zakir Naik has delivered more than 600 public talks in the U.S.A., Canada, U.K., Saudi Arabia, U.A.E., Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, Oman, South Africa, Mauritius, Australia, Malaysia, Singapore, Hongkong, Thailand, Guyana (South America) and many other countries, in addition to numerous public talks in India.

He has successfully participated in several symposia and dialogues with prominent personalities of other faiths. His public dialogue with Dr. William Campbell (of USA), on the topic, “The Qur’an and the Bible in the light of Science” held in city of Chicago, U.S.A., on April 1, 2000 was a resounding success.

In short according to my opinion the housemaid can not be considered as slaves as in the old times. Paying servant can not be used for sexual relationship because it will be consider just as prostitution. For sake of argument, as I had said that “Imam” asked his housemaid to keep it secret because it was not allowed according to Islam. So I condemn the action of “Imam”.

Islam had rolled the ball to abolish the slavery, and watch the following link what Dr Zakir has to say about slavery.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ols0czWNdL4

the world used in the Quran is Yum( have 2 meanings. 24 hour day and time period) for creation of the world. When Quran says that Creation of the universe was done in 8 days reafer to Yum means 8 period of time and scientist got no objection of accepting the creation of the world in 8 periods of time


Have a good time till I come back


H

[rajput49]

u have the right to beleive what u want and express what u want and u should give same right to others as well just chanting """"""RIGHTS,RIGHTS,RIGHTS""""DOESNT prove anything unless u practice it it seems that whole thing have turned away from original topic and its more of western societies versus non-western societies.societies comprise of human beings and all societies have its good and bad points.if europen or western societies gives right of expression that is adorable thing but this doesnt mean that everything is at par.hope u understand that this has been just expression of opinions rather than attack on ideologies or attack on other beliefs.we respect all religions and societies with keeping our opinion.

[Southerner]

(This is) the revelation of the Book in which there is no doubt – from the Lord of the Worlds.

Or do they say, ‘He has forged it’? Nay, it is the Truth from thy Lord, that thou mayest admonish a people to whom no warner has come before thee: in order that they may receive guidance."
[Al-Qur’an 32:1-3]i hope you will be satisfied

At no time has this shown anything more that the opinions of an Arab, it has already been proven to you that the language and culture at the time the koran was written was anything but arabian derived, Roman & Greek to be exact.

At no time has anything you have said been proven, all that is written is one man's made up story.

[QAMERSLAND]

Well Ahmed. True to form eh. Ignore the questions and the answers, cut and paste, cut and paste. The more I can post the righter I am.

Well you are not. You have dragged yourself, and the reputation of your name and your mosque into disgrace.

You have not only failed to proclaim the glory of Mahommed and the Qu'ran, you have suceeded in doing the opposite. You have exposed them to some withering criticism and argument which you have quite evidently lost.

You have probably suceeded in turning more hearts and minds away from Islam with your stupid misinformed rantings on the internet than any any other person could do.

I have shown some of your postings to some of my friends who have that faith. They were distressed and are seeking quidance on this matter and your position at the Limassol Mosque.

Tread carefully Sqamers, you may have deleted your email address but everything you have said is up there on this board for all to see. I think you may be receiving some guidence soon on these matters from some of your faith who are not so enlightened with their faith being put up for debate on a Cyprus website, good luck!

Oh and if you do profess to be a student, try and learn some basic debating skills.

Rawk (pizza be upon him)

have a look your posts yourself. As much rubbish is in your posts will put anyone shame on this forum because no one else has said more than you said. you are telling me to learn debating techniques and your posts clearly show that you have no manners how to talk in public forum.

Stout left the forum because of your stupid arguments and allegation about Islam.

Did you show your posts to those Muslims guys? I am not under anyone in any mosque in cyprus or abroad.

what i have done is my personal act and My Creator will decide between you and me on the day of judgment. as you are the one who rejects but i will once again invite you to accept and Revert to Islam and don't see me or any Muslim but Islam.

i wish and will pray that you will accept Islam by the will of God and we will meet one day somewhere and that day you will know who am i?

Thanks

have a good time till i return

[rawk]

Well Ahmed. True to form eh. Ignore the questions and the answers, cut and paste, cut and paste. The more I can post the righter I am.

Well you are not. You have dragged yourself, and the reputation of your name and your mosque into disgrace.

You have not only failed to proclaim the glory of Mahommed and the Qu'ran, you have suceeded in doing the opposite. You have exposed them to some withering criticism and argument which you have quite evidently lost.

You have probably suceeded in turning more hearts and minds away from Islam with your stupid misinformed rantings on the internet than any any other person could do.

I have shown some of your postings to some of my friends who have that faith. They were distressed and are seeking quidance on this matter and your position at the Limassol Mosque.

Tread carefully Sqamers, you may have deleted your email address but everything you have said is up there on this board for all to see. I think you may be receiving some guidence soon on these matters from some of your faith who are not so enlightened with their faith being put up for debate on a Cyprus website, good luck!

Oh and if you do profess to be a student, try and learn some basic debating skills.

Rawk (pizza be upon him)

have a look your posts yourself. As much rubbish is in your posts will put anyone shame on this forum because no one else has said more than you said. you are telling me to learn debating techniques and your posts clearly show that you have no manners how to talk in public forum.

Stout left the forum because of your stupid arguments and allegation about Islam.

Did you show your posts to those Muslims guys? I am not under anyone in any mosque in cyprus or abroad.

what i have done is my personal act and My Creator will decide between you and me on the day of judgment. as you are the one who rejects but i will once again invite you to accept and Revert to Islam and don't see me or any Muslim but Islam.

i wish and will pray that you will accept Islam by the will of God and we will meet one day somewhere and that day you will know who am i?

Thanks

have a good time till i return

Oh come off it Sqamers! Are you saying you haven't been updating the El-Kabir mosque home page?

Do you really think that you going to convert (not revert) me to Islam when I explained quite clearly on another thread that I have never had any religious inclination in my life.

It is as meaningless to me as a concept as are fairy stories to entertain children. I can understand "suspension of disbelief" so you can watch a movie and not continually keep thinking "why am I watching this, its not real". But to indulge in it to the point of self delusion and then let it guide your judjement and actions, that I cannot comprehend.

From what I can see, you have good men who do good things and bad men who do bad things, when good men do bad things, invariably religion, not just Islam, is to blame.

Anyway, what did you say?

"have a good time till i return"

Are you off then? Oh well, toodle pip. Just close the door on the way out, there's a good chap. We'll never forget you.

I'm sorry, who did you say you were again?

rawk

[Southerner]

have a good time till i return

At last so you'r finaly going away; possibly to put your own house in order.
Please don't darken this forum again with your medieval garbage.

[Southerner]

Yeterday Muslims murdered 15 muslims and wounded 15 muslims at a funeral in Itaq of all places.
Today muslims killed muslims in Pakistan.
Yesterday nobody bombed a funeral in any western country, obviously we need teaching the error of our ways