Cyprus-Forum.com

[CopperLine]

Zan,
Too true. Like Hegel's owl of minerva who takes to the wing only with the onset of dusk. Knowledge of the world is only realised after the day is finished.

[shahmaran]

:lol:

You keep sweeping all Islamic countries with your bigoted ignorance, yet here i am telling you that the biggest Islamic empire in the world was very much into music, i told you Sufism was very much music oriented, what more do you want me to say?! You want to compare Mozart with one of the most amazing philosophies in the world and the music that is behind it, fine, but i personally think that is the most stupid thing i have heard here in a long time, because you seem to want to give credit to Christianity for the doings of people, yet i fail to make any connections between the two. I live in an Islamic country yet i do not see any trace of such claims you are making. What have you got to say about that?

EXACTLY SO! YOU SPEAK OF ISLAM IN THE PAST TENSE WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT I REFER TO. YOU REALLY MUST LEARN TO READ REPLIES CORRECTLY AND DON'T LET YOUR BIGOTED ANTI WESTEN VIEWS CLOUD YOUR JUDGEMENT.
YOU LIVE IN AN ISLAMIC COUNTRY....WELL GIVE ME EXAMPLES (AS I REQUESTED BEFORE) OF MODERN ISLAMIC ACHIEVEMENTS IN THE ARTS & TECHNOLOGY THAT HAVE BENEFITTED MANKIND?

What are you a moron?! Writing in capitals is not going to make you "look" like you are making more sense. I am not anti-western, i love the west as much as i love the east and north and south, i am simply anti Christianity and anti Islam, i think they are both as full of shit as you are. I was merely commenting on your ignorant comments about Islam not allowing music or arts or whatever idiotic claims you had, that is not Islam, that's just some extremely backward government. I have already told you that Sufism is very much music and art oriented, and its a sect of Islam. Plus the fact that you relate technological achievements to religion, that's extremely absurd, i cant see how you make the connections, people don't invent things because they are Christian, but they do go around bombing the entire world and forcing imperialist agendas to the poor countries BECAUSE they are Christian, you catching my drift now sir?!

[Southerner]

I believe in evolution,
I also accept that Holocaust happened.
Ignorant I don't think so I just class this dick head the same as a jehovahs witness knocking on my door trying to ram their narrow minded views down my throat.
Blowing up ancient religious artifacts is not the act of a civilised religion.
The Gulf war was not carried out in the name of christanity/religion.
The 911 atrocity was carried out in the name of the islamic religion.
It is not western proaganda about executing women for receiving an education.
Things have changed in the Christian faith since the Crusades, Islam is still back there.
Religion has no place in the law of the land[/b

You are totally wrong about the other facts on why the Gulf war happened and it was not about any religion but of oil. 911 was about that too and who will control it. Just like any other war the side relevant to the faith uses a peaceful religion to blackmail to further its cause and that goes for both sides. One to justify killing the other.

Where did I say that the gulf war was about religion? I said quite the opposite we all know that it was about oil.
911 was nothing to do about oil it was a meglomaniac called Osama Bin Liner.
Religion has no part in the law of the land, religion is a thing of personal choice.
The sooner that we find alternative scources of energy/fuel the better off we all will be; well maybe not all, the arabs whill have to start growing dates again.

[b]Religion has no place in the law of the land

I am sorry mate but it is up there in your post...
You said: The 911 atrocity was carried out in the name of the islamic religion.

I agree that the religion was used to fool these idiots into carrying out the attacks but it is not about religion but about western interference in the middle east with their oil.


But that is the battle cry of all wars isn't it. For God King and country....?

This is what I wrote in my first response if you read my first post above you will see that the bold type below is taken from it.
The Gulf war was not carried out in the name of christanity/religion.
The 911 atrocity was carried out in the name of the islamic religion.
How you can get these two simple lines wrong beggars belief.

Religion has no place in the law of the land

[Southerner]

Religion has no place in the law of the land

Surely every nation on the face of the earth bases it's LAW on it's religious convictions, the tenets of whatever belief the nation has are the foundation upon which the nation stands.
Whether or not they manage to instill those principles in the behaviour of their subjects is another matter, lawlessness occurs everywhere, even in the high offices of those who dictate to others, or so I believe.

It is far too idealistic to say that every nation based it's laws on religion.
Certainly some laws were made for the benefit of religion the UK being no exception, but when the English church got too arogant it was put in it's place several times and finaly lost all power regarding the law of the land.
Bad laws are replaced, we don't burn witches anymore nor do we have a 'Withcfinder General' the list can go on and on. But, on the other hand whereas the Christian church has quite rightly been stripped of any power regarding the law of the land, there are countries where islam can overturn civil law which is an infringement on human righst.
It is one thing being given the choice of being tried by a doctrine of your choice; it is another matter when islam steps in and overturns a civil court ruling as happened in Pakistan when the islamic court (who hadn't tried a particular British subject) overuled the civil courts ruling and put the man on death row.
The religion of islam is still living in the Dark Ages

[Tim Drayton]

Sorry to keep harping on about the rape of foreign housemaids in that part of the world that constitutes the cradle of Islam, but I have just discovered that this practice is perfectly consistent with the teachings of the Quran. Apparently there is an Islamic concept of "right-hand possessions" (Maluk-ul-Yameen) which is defined as "Slaves or maids who came into the possession of Muslims through war or purchase". Guess what - men are allowed to have sex with them. Since the poor housemaids imported into the Arabian Peninsula are acquired through a commercial transaction, they are "right-hand possessions" and it seems that under the Islamic faith their master is entitled to engage in any kind of sexual activity with them he so desires.

This is permitted according to chapter 23 (the Believers) of the Quran, whose English translation I give below in full (look out for verse 6):

1. The believers must (eventually) win through,-

2. Those who humble themselves in their prayers;

3. Who avoid vain talk;

4. Who are active in deeds of charity;

5. Who abstain from sex,

6. Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame,

7. But those whose desires exceed those limits are transgressors;-

8. Those who faithfully observe their trusts and their covenants;

9. And who (strictly) guard their prayers;-

10. These will be the heirs,

11. Who will inherit Paradise: they will dwell therein (for ever).

So, I apologise for asking Muslims to condemn this vile practice as un-Islamic. Islam, far from condemning this lewd conduct, permits it. I wonder what this creed has to say about who is responsible for bringing up the increasing numbers of bastard, half-Arab children that this custom is bringing into being. As far as I know, these maids are deported from Saudi Arabia along with their children once they have completed their prison sentences for adultery. In other words, their Saudi fathers do not want to know about them. What does islam have to say about the fathers' responsibilities here?

By the way, I know that in Qatar maids are just deported the moment they become pregnant. At least they are spared the indignity of being punished for what, seen through Western eyes, amounts to being the victim of serial rape.

Another query I have for Islamic scholars out there is, since verse 6 explicitly tells us that the right-hand possessions are "free from blame", why are these poor housemaids banged up in jail for allegedly "committing adultery" when they are made pregnant by their employers who are availing themselves of their rights under 23:6?

For me this is yet another reminder of the great service Mustafa Kemal Atatürk did in ridding Turkey of the abomination of Sharia law.

[Bucksboy]

:lol:

You keep sweeping all Islamic countries with your bigoted ignorance, yet here i am telling you that the biggest Islamic empire in the world was very much into music, i told you Sufism was very much music oriented, what more do you want me to say?! You want to compare Mozart with one of the most amazing philosophies in the world and the music that is behind it, fine, but i personally think that is the most stupid thing i have heard here in a long time, because you seem to want to give credit to Christianity for the doings of people, yet i fail to make any connections between the two. I live in an Islamic country yet i do not see any trace of such claims you are making. What have you got to say about that?

EXACTLY SO! YOU SPEAK OF ISLAM IN THE PAST TENSE WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT I REFER TO. YOU REALLY MUST LEARN TO READ REPLIES CORRECTLY AND DON'T LET YOUR BIGOTED ANTI WESTEN VIEWS CLOUD YOUR JUDGEMENT.
YOU LIVE IN AN ISLAMIC COUNTRY....WELL GIVE ME EXAMPLES (AS I REQUESTED BEFORE) OF MODERN ISLAMIC ACHIEVEMENTS IN THE ARTS & TECHNOLOGY THAT HAVE BENEFITTED MANKIND?

What are you a moron?! Writing in capitals is not going to make you "look" like you are making more sense. I am not anti-western, i love the west as much as i love the east and north and south, i am simply anti Christianity and anti Islam, i think they are both as full of shit as you are. I was merely commenting on your ignorant comments about Islam not allowing music or arts or whatever idiotic claims you had, that is not Islam, that's just some extremely backward government. I have already told you that Sufism is very much music and art oriented, and its a sect of Islam. Plus the fact that you relate technological achievements to religion, that's extremely absurd, i cant see how you make the connections, people don't invent things because they are Christian, but they do go around bombing the entire world and forcing imperialist agendas to the poor countries BECAUSE they are Christian, you catching my drift now sir?!

How arrogant you are! Your arrogance matches your lack of understanding and is just the kind of example to us all of modern day Islamic crap.
I don;t give a fuck whether you are anti christian or anti muslim.
I will say once again that modern Islam is full of shit and bears little to the Islam of the past. Modern Islamic countires actively discourage free speech, actively discourage sexual freedom, actively discourage any participation in the arts and actively ENCOURAGE the abuse of Women.
Never mind about bombing the world....I suppose the bombs planted in London were planted because the perpetrators were not muslim.

[CopperLine]

There was a parallel, though by no means identical, notion to Maluk ul Yameen in feudal Christian societies which took the form of 'droit de seigneur'. As fas as I can see its only 'christian' origin is in the notion of a god-ordained hierarchy in which a nobility derive some divine right.

On the one hand I agree with the need to expose religious dogma and superstition for the power that it is and the catastrophes that it visits on human kind, but on the other hand there is a danger in picking out from religious texts specific interpretations and justifications for this or that crime. What I mean is that one could take almost any religious text and tradition and conclude with equal weight that we were simultaneously dealing with chalk and cheese. For every passage that permits rape one could, I guess, find a passage which forbids it.

But I agree with you, Tim Drayton, thank god Mustafa Kemal got rid of sharia. Pity he didn't do the job before the break up of the Ottoman empire and put end to those bloody Saudi usurpers.

[shahmaran]

They were planted because UK was bombing innocent children and women along with their partners in crime, so stop acting so ignorantly, you know very well what is going on, ignorant Christians blindly attacking other ignorant Muslims in the name of "democracy and freedom" while Bush openly admiting that god is on his side, so they bomb them back in the name of god, basically they are all full of shit and so are you!

I live in a Muslim world and to be honest there is not a single trace of the crap you are harping on about, so how can you be so sweeping and bigoted? Like i said it is not about Islam, it is about the idiots in charge. The Christian world might be very free and humane in their own countries compared to the most of the poor 3rd world Islamic places, but there is not a single bit of it that extends to the world which they are literally fucking up the ass of for centuries!

So if you want to bitch about religions, you tell me which one caused more mayhem and conflicts over the centuries, was it Islam or Christianity? Lets not forget that it was also the Western world that placed the Jews right in the heart of the Muslims, you are absolutely ridiculous to even think about debating such bollocks.

[Tim Drayton]

There was a parallel, though by no means identical, notion to Maluk ul Yameen in feudal Christian societies which took the form of 'droit de seigneur'. As fas as I can see its only 'christian' origin is in the notion of a god-ordained hierarchy in which a nobility derive some divine right.

On the one hand I agree with the need to expose religious dogma and superstition for the power that it is and the catastrophes that it visits on human kind, but on the other hand there is a danger in picking out from religious texts specific interpretations and justifications for this or that crime. What I mean is that one could take almost any religious text and tradition and conclude with equal weight that we were simultaneously dealing with chalk and cheese. For every passage that permits rape one could, I guess, find a passage which forbids it.

But I agree with you, Tim Drayton, thank god Mustafa Kemal got rid of sharia. Pity he didn't do the job before the break up of the Ottoman empire and put end to those bloody Saudi usurpers.

Of course, many interpretations may be made. The Bible is as full of contradictions and inconsistencies as the Quran. The interpretation of Islam as made, for example, by Mevlana most certainly would not support such abuses that crop up on a daily basis in the Arabian Peninsula.

Actually, my last post was a bit malicious in that it was aimed at goading a response from Qamersland who seems to have gone totally silent ever since I have demonstrated that I have detailed knowledge of life in Arabia. How hard would it be to condemn the kind of practices I have described and say that they have no place in his vision of Islam?

[CopperLine]

Bucksboy,
Trouble is you've just committed some basic logical fallacy.

Some Muslims planted bombs
All the London bombers were Muslim,
Therefore all Muslims are bombers.

Some Islamists place bombs
All the London bombers were Islamist
Therefore Islam is a religion of bombers

Or other syllogistic fallacies. Whichever way, whichever variant, its bollocks.

I'd say that no one kills or bombs because they are a Muslim or a Christian or whatever else. It is the religion or whatever else which ostensibly provides them with a language of justification for their actions.

Below is a poem/lyric by Cherryl Wheeler that was used in the light of the Columbine High School killings (I think). Sometime you don't have to go into some highly complex reasoning and theology to explain why some guys can kill and bomb :

Maybe it's the movies, maybe it's the books
Maybe it's the bullets, maybe it's the real crooks
Maybe it's the drugs, maybe it's the parents
Maybe it's the colors everybody's wearin
Maybe it's the President, maybe it's the last one
Maybe it's the one before that, what he done
Maybe it's the high schools, maybe it's the teachers
Maybe it's the tattooed children in the bleachers
Maybe it's the Bible, maybe it's the lack
Maybe it's the music, maybe it's the crack
Maybe it's the hairdos, maybe it's the TV
Maybe it's the cigarettes, maybe it's the family
Maybe it's the fast food, maybe it's the news
Maybe it's divorce, maybe it's abuse
Maybe it's the lawyers, maybe it's the prisons
Maybe it's the Senators, maybe it's the system
Maybe it's the fathers, maybe it's the sons
Maybe it's the sisters, maybe it's the moms
Maybe it's the radio, maybe it's road rage
Maybe El Nino, or UV rays
Maybe it's the army, maybe it's the liquor
Maybe it's the papers, maybe the militia
Maybe it's the athletes, maybe it's the ads
Maybe it's the sports fans, maybe it's a fad
Maybe it's the magazines, maybe it's the internet
Maybe it's the lottery, maybe it's the immigrants
Maybe it's taxes, big business
Maybe it's the KKK and the skinheads
Maybe it's the communists, maybe it's the Catholics
Maybe it's the hippies, maybe it's the addicts
Maybe it's the art, maybe it's the sex
Maybe it's the homeless, maybe it's the banks
Maybe it's the clearcut, maybe it's the ozone
Maybe it's the chemicals, maybe it's the car phones
Maybe it's the fertilizer, maybe it's the nose rings
Maybe it's the end, but I know one thing.
If it were up to me, I'd take away the guns.

http://capecodhistory.us/quotes/verse.html