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Where the Halils, the Denizes, the Zans & othrs come frm

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Where the Halils, the Denizes, the Zans & othrs come frm

Postby Kifeas » Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:16 pm

I have just come across an interesting article in the TDN, not from an “ignorant” GC like me that is “clueless” about Turkey, its people, culture, Ataturk and Kemalism, but from a prominent Turkish journalist himself! Read his views, and I am sure you will all understand where the irrationality and fanaticism of some Turkish Cypriots in this forum originates from! He even has an advice to all these empty heads, at the very end of his article where he says in no uncertain terms that they basically need to “grow up!”

Enjoy what another Turks says, and live aside whatever Kifeas has said to you so far!


The gospel according to Atatürk
Saturday, November 10, 2007

It is no doubt that Atatürk deserves utmost respect from the Turkish nation. But respecting a man is quite different to worshipping him

MUSTAFA AKYOL
DUBLIN – A few weeks ago, while driving through one of the busiest spots in Istanbul, Şişli Square, I came across dozens of Atatürk flags hanging all over the place. They were, apparently, an official prelude to Nov. 10, the anniversary of the death of the country's founder. Yet the flags included not only the usual smiling look of the national leader, but also a message that I had never came across before. “Sizi izliyorum,” it read in Turkish, which means, “I am watching you.”

Apparently the folks who had this brilliant idea have never heard of George Orwell and his classic novel “1984,” in which the Big Brother watches everybody in order to ensure the persistence of his totalitarian regime. Certainly, the state of affairs in Turkey is not as bad as that. Yet it seems no accident that the veneration of Atatürk has reached such absurd heights that its slogans started to resemble Orwellian archetypes.

Atatürk loves you! :

This veneration is visible in virtually every spot in Turkey. Wherever you turn your face, you come across Atatürk. Every piece of currency is created in his image. Every office wall carries his portrait. Almost all official speeches start or end by honoring his name. The greatest airports, boulevards and damns are named after him. School children begin the week by swearing allegiance to “The most high Atatürk, who has given us this day.” My young brother recalls the astounding way that his teacher instructed the class in the first year of primary school. “Keep silent and behave,” the teachers used to warn the seven-year-olds, “otherwise Atatürk will not love you.”

This strange belief in an omnipresent leader that oversees the nation persists in many Turkish minds well into adulthood. No wonder when our political leaders visit his mausoleum in Ankara, Anıtkabir, most of them speak not only about Atatürk. They also speak to him. Many avow that they will never abandon his righteous path and forsake his revolutionary ideals. Whenever there is a political crisis, his devotees, the Kemalists, rush to his shrine in drones and present wreaths as offerings. One of our retired generals recently said, “Whenever I despair, I read the Nutuk.” That book is Atatürk's political autobiography, and the spiritual power it transmits is apparently not too dissimilar to what the Bible gives to a devout Christian.

It is hard to avoid the ''G'' word here to explain the level Atatürk has been raised to. At least to most foreign observers, all this amounts to the deification of a political leader, which is, of course, not an attribute of democratic countries. It is rather a typical aspect of secular tyrannies such as the Soviet Union and North Korea.

In Turkey, the political system is much more open and free, to be sure, but the cult of Atatürk constantly blocks its evolution into a full democracy. Virtually every attempt for reform is opposed by hardline Kemalists who have created eternal principles from the founding father's practical policies. They have opposed privatization of state enterprises, for example, for that Atatürk created them in the 1930s. They refuse giving cultural freedoms to our Kurdish citizens, because they say pluralism contradicts Atatürk's vision of a homogeneous nation. And they can't even stand to hear about religious freedom, since they believe that the homogeneous nation must also be fully secularized.

The Kemalists also have an interesting way of reductive thinking. They try to understand the contemporary world not by analyzing it, but imagining analogies with the time of Atatürk. The pro-EU liberals are for them the reincarnations of the “British Lovers Society” of the 1920s, which the Supreme Leader swept aside. When foreign companies invest in Turkey, they see a new set of “capitulations,” the economic measures that had become disadvantageous to the late Ottoman Empire and were abolished by Atatürk.

Detachment from reality :

The result of this strict mental blueprint is detachment from reality. That's why, despite all its rhetoric on “science and reason” as guiding lights for society, Kemalism has become an irrational ideology. When its adherents are challenged by rational arguments, they respond by emotional reactions. They take extra tours to Anıtkabir and sing more anthems.

I, of course, find all this cultism bizarre and detrimental, but this is not because I lack admiration for Atatürk. He was the heroic leader of our War of Liberation, and he showed great skills in the formation of our Republic. He was a genius in many aspects and a true patriot. It is no doubt that he deserves utmost respect from the Turkish nation.

But respecting a man is quite different to worshipping him. We Turks need to understand that, despite all his brilliance, Atatürk was a man of his time. He did his best, but times have changed. Global economy and politics work differently today, and the standards of democracy and freedom have become much higher. Moreover, like all mortals, even Atatürk made some mistakes. We need to stop looking for his guidance on every single issue, and start to think for ourselves. Look, it has been nearly seven decades since his death. It is really time for us to grow up.

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/arti ... wsid=88247
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Postby boomerang » Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:51 pm

Better still ask how many carry his picture in their wallet, or when they refer to him as sleeping

http://greekturkish.18.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=980&hl=

And most if not all of his pictures are doctored...just have a look at the black colour on him and compare them with the surrounding black clours in all the pictures...Pigmenttion is different when magnified...Try and tell them that and see what you get...
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Postby Nikephoros » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:42 am

I will not hide my feelings, most Greeks on this forum, YOU ARE YAPPING IDIOTS.

I have heard Turks to worship Ataturk all day on forums for a long tiem now, so one day I decide to buy Nutuk in English translation. And in this work Ataturk himself says the best reason why Turks worship him as a figurehead for the Turkish state, because under the kind of nationalism in Turkey they cannot exist without the Turkish state, in his own words:

Ataturk saying Turks should exist for the Turkish state wrote:Turkish Youth! your primary duty is ever to preserve and defend the National independence of the Turkish Republic.

That is the sole foundation of your existence and your future. This foundation is your most precious treasure. In the future too, too there will be ill-will, both in the country itself and abroad, which will try to tear this treasure from you. If one day you are compelled to defend your independence and the Republic, then, in order to fullfil your duty ... It is possible that the enemies who desire to destroy your independence and your Repubic represent the strongest force that the earth has ever seen; that they have, through craft and force, taken possession of all the fortresses and arsenals of the homeland; that all its armies are scattered and the country actually completely occupied.

Assuming, in order to look still darker possibilities in the face, that those who hold the power of Government within the country have fallen into error, that they are fools or traitors, yes, even that these leading persons can identify their personal interests with the enemy's political goals, it might happen that the nation came into complete privation, into the most extreme distress; that if found itself in a condition of ruin and complete exhaustion.

Even under those circumstances, Turkish child of future generations, it is your duty to save the independence of the Turkish Republic.

The strength that you will need for this is the noble blood which flows in your veins.

The End.

Ataturk, Mustafa Ghazi Kemal. The Great Speech. Ataturk Research Center, (Ankara; 2005) p. 715-716.


Gokalp openly made Turkish nationalism a religion wrote:"Gokalp gave "the nation" an important mystical component. In his work, "he transferred to the nation the divine qualities he had found in society, replacing the belief in God with the belief in the nation: and so nationalism became a religion."[43] The national is deified, thus expanding Durkheim's idea that "society can do as it pleases." So, if a nation perceives iteself in danger, it feels no moral responsibility in its response to that danger. The Unionist "scientific approach" gained a "sacred" character through Gokalp's theories."

[43.] Heyd, Uriel. Foundations of Turkish Nationalism: The Life andTeachings of Ziya Gökalp., p. 57.


No Turk in this thread will be honest about what is going on in Turkey, all they do is conceal and hide. Look at the writings of Ataturk himself and Gokalp, there is only a small circle of people responsible for modern Turkish nationalism. If you want to help, PM me, if you are worth more than useless chatter. I can inter-library loan enough material to bring out what the Turks would like to hide from us, I just need Greeks to help me to OCR some of these materials. I am only one man I cannot do everything myself. I am receiving that study by Uriel Heyd on Gokalp and Turkish nationalism on inter-library loan.

Turks have always been worshipping and subservient to their state,even under the Ottoman Empire, everyone was subjects and not true citiziens. In The Mass Pscyhology oF Fascism. German Wilhelm Reich says most Germans saw their leader Hitler as their personal father figure. In this work Reich stated reasons and observations of why Fascism came to power in Germany and why most Germans supported Hitler, he rejected totally the leftists myths about most German not being fascists, "Oh, it was only the government not the people" he rejected such dunderheaded thinking and looked for real reasons. Infact, in his speeches Hitler has cited Ataturk and how he admired him.
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Postby tessintrnc » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:35 am

I am not sure what you are trying to achieve? You need help to do what exactly? :roll:
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Postby Nikephoros » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:50 am

I scanned in some pages(into high resolution GIF) for example from the study The Mechanism of Catastrophe: The Turkish Pogrom Of September 6-7, 1955, And The Destruction Of The Greek Community Of Istanbul. which I posted to this thread for download: http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... 23&start=0

So I need some Greeks to help me by meeting me half-way to volunteer ot OCR(Optical Character Reocgnition, it is what you do to turn scanned images from books into editable and plain text) those pages and others. I will do the same with Foundations of Turkish Nationalism: The Life andTeachings of Ziya Gökalp. but no Greek is interested to help me. Rather they would waste their time on innane banter. I am one man, I cannot do everything myself. If any Greek is worth more than useless banter then PM me.
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Postby Nikitas » Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:14 pm

We do not have OCR Nikephore, think of that possibility too.

Kifea, thanks for the posting. It confirms what impressed me about the adoration of Mustafa Kemal. The Turks adore him in a way which does not happen with any other historic personality in any place in the world. Change from such an ossified situation usually happens in a violent and radical manner.
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Postby phoenix » Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:26 pm

State "baboonery" exploits the weakness of the type of people that need to feel they belong in a social hierarchy with an "alpha" male to revere.

The psychotic aspect is that the man is dead, yet still commands this type of idolatry to the Turks.

There is a well known phenomenon which describes the sort of people that can be made to believe the presence and influence of something that is clearly not there.

It has been observed in a proportion of the population which still insists they can feel a long-ago severed limb. They feel it itch as if it was still attached. These sorts of people are also found to be fanatics for a number of other attributes like religion. Also they lack free will.

I am also reminded of a book I read when I was a teenager, "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley. I think it was written in the 20's or 30's. The dystopia Huxley described was partly created by control over the people's minds through a process of Pavlovian conditioning and brainwashing.

The most worrying aspect is that there are so many of these types of non-questioning, socially primeval people. It encapsulates how different this mentality is to the progressive man, who is mature enough to take responsibility for his actions.
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Re: Where the Halils, the Denizes, the Zans & othrs come

Postby zan » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:58 pm

Kifeas wrote:I have just come across an interesting article in the TDN, not from an “ignorant” GC like me that is “clueless” about Turkey, its people, culture, Ataturk and Kemalism, but from a prominent Turkish journalist himself! Read his views, and I am sure you will all understand where the irrationality and fanaticism of some Turkish Cypriots in this forum originates from! He even has an advice to all these empty heads, at the very end of his article where he says in no uncertain terms that they basically need to “grow up!”

Enjoy what another Turks says, and live aside whatever Kifeas has said to you so far!


The gospel according to Atatürk
Saturday, November 10, 2007

It is no doubt that Atatürk deserves utmost respect from the Turkish nation. But respecting a man is quite different to worshipping him

MUSTAFA AKYOL
DUBLIN – A few weeks ago, while driving through one of the busiest spots in Istanbul, Şişli Square, I came across dozens of Atatürk flags hanging all over the place. They were, apparently, an official prelude to Nov. 10, the anniversary of the death of the country's founder. Yet the flags included not only the usual smiling look of the national leader, but also a message that I had never came across before. “Sizi izliyorum,” it read in Turkish, which means, “I am watching you.”

Apparently the folks who had this brilliant idea have never heard of George Orwell and his classic novel “1984,” in which the Big Brother watches everybody in order to ensure the persistence of his totalitarian regime. Certainly, the state of affairs in Turkey is not as bad as that. Yet it seems no accident that the veneration of Atatürk has reached such absurd heights that its slogans started to resemble Orwellian archetypes.

Atatürk loves you! :

This veneration is visible in virtually every spot in Turkey. Wherever you turn your face, you come across Atatürk. Every piece of currency is created in his image. Every office wall carries his portrait. Almost all official speeches start or end by honoring his name. The greatest airports, boulevards and damns are named after him. School children begin the week by swearing allegiance to “The most high Atatürk, who has given us this day.” My young brother recalls the astounding way that his teacher instructed the class in the first year of primary school. “Keep silent and behave,” the teachers used to warn the seven-year-olds, “otherwise Atatürk will not love you.”

This strange belief in an omnipresent leader that oversees the nation persists in many Turkish minds well into adulthood. No wonder when our political leaders visit his mausoleum in Ankara, Anıtkabir, most of them speak not only about Atatürk. They also speak to him. Many avow that they will never abandon his righteous path and forsake his revolutionary ideals. Whenever there is a political crisis, his devotees, the Kemalists, rush to his shrine in drones and present wreaths as offerings. One of our retired generals recently said, “Whenever I despair, I read the Nutuk.” That book is Atatürk's political autobiography, and the spiritual power it transmits is apparently not too dissimilar to what the Bible gives to a devout Christian.

It is hard to avoid the ''G'' word here to explain the level Atatürk has been raised to. At least to most foreign observers, all this amounts to the deification of a political leader, which is, of course, not an attribute of democratic countries. It is rather a typical aspect of secular tyrannies such as the Soviet Union and North Korea.

In Turkey, the political system is much more open and free, to be sure, but the cult of Atatürk constantly blocks its evolution into a full democracy. Virtually every attempt for reform is opposed by hardline Kemalists who have created eternal principles from the founding father's practical policies. They have opposed privatization of state enterprises, for example, for that Atatürk created them in the 1930s. They refuse giving cultural freedoms to our Kurdish citizens, because they say pluralism contradicts Atatürk's vision of a homogeneous nation. And they can't even stand to hear about religious freedom, since they believe that the homogeneous nation must also be fully secularized.

The Kemalists also have an interesting way of reductive thinking. They try to understand the contemporary world not by analyzing it, but imagining analogies with the time of Atatürk. The pro-EU liberals are for them the reincarnations of the “British Lovers Society” of the 1920s, which the Supreme Leader swept aside. When foreign companies invest in Turkey, they see a new set of “capitulations,” the economic measures that had become disadvantageous to the late Ottoman Empire and were abolished by Atatürk.

Detachment from reality :

The result of this strict mental blueprint is detachment from reality. That's why, despite all its rhetoric on “science and reason” as guiding lights for society, Kemalism has become an irrational ideology. When its adherents are challenged by rational arguments, they respond by emotional reactions. They take extra tours to Anıtkabir and sing more anthems.

I, of course, find all this cultism bizarre and detrimental, but this is not because I lack admiration for Atatürk. He was the heroic leader of our War of Liberation, and he showed great skills in the formation of our Republic. He was a genius in many aspects and a true patriot. It is no doubt that he deserves utmost respect from the Turkish nation.

But respecting a man is quite different to worshipping him. We Turks need to understand that, despite all his brilliance, Atatürk was a man of his time. He did his best, but times have changed. Global economy and politics work differently today, and the standards of democracy and freedom have become much higher. Moreover, like all mortals, even Atatürk made some mistakes. We need to stop looking for his guidance on every single issue, and start to think for ourselves. Look, it has been nearly seven decades since his death. It is really time for us to grow up.

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/arti ... wsid=88247



You really need to go to speck savers mate....... :roll: :roll: This sort of political thinking could apply to any country anywhere in the world. There is need for improvement everywhere and that goes doubly for your corrupt "RoC". Just having the term " Democracy" attached to your name does it make it so. These remarks could be used as an excuse....What are yours. Greece was no better in much of it's history and only drastic action made it possible for it to join the EU. Cyprus should never have been allowed at all. Yes the Kamalist system is out of date and needs changing but that is not what is stopping you from playing ball in CYprus. That is not what made you want ENOSIS. You are asking for the whole island....It is Kemalism that is standing in your way.....OF course you wouldn't like it. There are great changes happening in Turkey but you still chase ghosts. Sort yourself out before throwing stones. :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Postby phoenix » Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:10 am

Hark . . . . a fanatic on his soapbox!

(And there I was thinking Turks just carried pictures of Elvis :lol: )
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Postby zan » Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:14 am

phoenix wrote:Hark . . . . a fanatic on his soapbox!

(And there I was thinking Turks just carried pictures of Elvis :lol: )


I heard you were a bit of a babe but I still prefer the picture of Elvis...Ah Ha! 8) 8)
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