Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

Why are you so surprised that some people in the north can express their opinions that are completely opposite to the "official" doctrine?

In my opinion, this article alone doesn't offer substantial evidence that people in the north can or cannot express their views freely. It might as well mean that it just escaped the censorship. Or, that it was overshadowed by the rest of the claims, which apparently do serve the "official doctrine."

I suggest you read Sener Levent's articles and see how "undemocratic" the north is.

If you suggest me to read Sener Levent so that I see how "undemocratic" the north is, then it means that you also accept that the north is undemocratic.

Anyhow my point was not if the north is democratic or not.

[Kifeas]

As far as the DNA linkage if this is true then how is it possible? Assuming the Greek CYpriots never wished to interbreed with the Ottoman conquerors how on Earth is it possible for their decendants to have similar genes?

The truth of the matter is that you do not need a DNA test to realize that Greek and Turkish Cypriots are perhaps almost the same people. You can immediately understand it by their appearance (facial and body characteristics.) Greek Cypriots explain this by claiming that the majority of the Turkish Cypriot community is part of the rest of the Cypriot people, as they evolved throughout the history, and which for various reasons adopted Islam during the Ottoman years. Turkish Cypriots tend to dispute this claim and believe that they are mostly descendants of the Ottomans and that they were brought in Cyprus during that period.

[Piratis]

Turkish Cypriots tend to dispute this claim and believe that they are mostly descendants of the Ottomans and that they were brought in Cyprus during that period.

If this was the case then TCs would genetically be much closer to Turks though.

Personally I believe that some Ottoman blood exist in some TCs and some GCs. However most TCs are just Cypriots that adopted Islam during the Ottoman era, since doing so meant a better life for them during that time.

[Saint Jimmy]

most TCs are just Cypriots that adopted Islam during the Ottoman era, since doing so meant a better life for them during that time.

Piratis,
I don't mean to be offensive, but I have a question. Do you feel that these Cypriots that adopted Islam (and thus formed what is today known as the 'TC community') were wrong to do so, perhaps because they betrayed their country, their religion, etc., in search of a better life for themselves? Or do you feel that this was their prerogative, and they had every right to choose to do so?

[Piratis]

As an atheist, I couldn't care less of what religion each person follows.

Each person should be allowed to have whatever religion and beliefs he wants and everybody should be equal citizen regardless of their faith, race, language etc.

This of course was not the case during the Ottoman rule. Maybe our TC friends miss the era where they had more rights and power than their non-muslim compatriots, however I do not accept to return to middle ages because it suits some people.

What we should have in Cyprus today should be based on democracy and human rights, and not the Ottoman style of rilling or other undemocratic systems that create two categories of citizens.

[MicAtCyp]

As far as the DNA linkage if this is true then how is it possible? Assuming the Greek CYpriots never wished to interbreed with the Ottoman conquerors how on Earth is it possible for their decendants to have similar genes?
Hmmm...

The Ottomans were ONLY males. They got females from the local population. Then locals started converting to Islam and became lets say "TCs" to avoid taxation. At some stage the TCs reached almost 35% (hence their todays claim that back then they had 35% of the land).
When the British took over there was an unexplainable super fast diminishing of the population of TCs that was not due to emmigration or less birth rate or anything.Simply the cryptos started reverting to their original religion.In the meantime however the mixture of blood was almost full.
For your information prior to 1974 there were TCs who did not even speak Turkish, and whole villages were everybody knew they were not TCs but crypto GCs e.g Louroutzina. Many purely TC villages had Greek names e.g Agios Nicolaos an indication they were converted GCs. And so on, and so on.

I knew the fact of the DNA match a long time ago...The high percentage match of the genes is astonishing!

[metecyp]

If you suggest me to read Sener Levent so that I see how "undemocratic" the north is, then it means that you also accept that the north is undemocratic.

As you realize, I put undemocratic in quotes so I wasn't trying to stress that north is indeed undemocratic but rather the opposite. Many GCs claim that the north is under occupation and no TC can say anything against Turkey, etc. Sener Levent is one journalist who calls Turkey occupier and asks TCs to return back to the RoC, i.e. completely opposite to what Turkey and TC leadership claims. His newspaper went through some trouble but it's still out there and many people, including me, read it daily. This shows that the north is somewhat democratic, maybe not as perfect as the EU or the US but probably as democratic as the south.

[Kifeas]

As you realize, I put undemocratic in quotes so I wasn't trying to stress that north is indeed undemocratic but rather the opposite. Many GCs claim that the north is under occupation and no TC can say anything against Turkey, etc. Sener Levent is one journalist who calls Turkey occupier and asks TCs to return back to the RoC, i.e. completely opposite to what Turkey and TC leadership claims. His newspaper went through some trouble but it's still out there and many people, including me, read it daily. This shows that the north is somewhat democratic, maybe not as perfect as the EU or the US but probably as democratic as the south.

Ok...! I accept this.
However, Sener Levent's newspaper received several bombing attacks in the past and was also forced by court rulings to change it's name from Avrupa to Afrika. He continues to bear several charges against him as well as some other Journalists, one of them being Hasan Kahfesioglou. I know that these charges were brought against them by a military court in the north. Also taking up from the resent laws in Turkey which prohibit anyone to write or speak against anything regarding the so called national interests of turkey, one of them being to speak in favour of the withdrawal of Turkish troops from Cyprus, I will not be surprised if also people in the north are affected by this. As I am sure you are aware, military courts to trial or bring charges against journalists or even laws that prohibit such freedom of speech on the basis of national interests, do not exist in the south.

[Kifeas]

Piratis wrote:
most TCs are just Cypriots that adopted Islam during the Ottoman era, since doing so meant a better life for them during that time.

Piratis,
I don't mean to be offensive, but I have a question. Do you feel that these Cypriots that adopted Islam (and thus formed what is today known as the 'TC community') were wrong to do so, perhaps because they betrayed their country, their religion, etc., in search of a better life for themselves? Or do you feel that this was their prerogative, and they had every right to choose to do so?

During the Ottoman occupation, if one belonged to the Greek Orthodox religion was required to pay 14% of their production revenues as taxes to the Sultan. If one had chosen to become a Moslem, this tax was reduced to 7%. At some stage the Sultans increased these taxes that Moslems pay to 14% like the Christians. Then there was a revolt by the Moslems and this tax was reduced back to the 7%. This is what more or less I remember from my history lessons. Please forgive me if I neglected to mention anything, as it is not intentional.

[metecyp]

I'm not sure if the name change from Avrupa to Afrika was a court ruling. I read Sener Levent every day and I remember him saying how they changed the name to Africa as a reaction to the officials as they thought officials are trying to make north Cyprus an African country by restricting freedom of speech.

I do realize that there's a lot that needs to be done in the north (and Turkey) in freedom of speech and democracy. You mentioned bombings so no bombings happen in the south? What about bombing Nicos Anastasiadis' (sorry if misspelled) house? I also hear both in this forum and in the GC media how some people are labelled as "traitors" because they don't agree with the official opinion. Or what about that GC documentary maker who made a documentary about TC massacres in Atlilar-Murataga-Sandallar? He couldn't find a single TV channel in the south to show his documentary. Are all these part of being democratic?

Yes, you don't have laws prohibiting people to say things simply because EU won't allow it. But can you sincerely say the society in the south is democratic and open to different views? I don't think so.