Cyprus-Forum.com

[Deejay]

heres the problem deejay:
the "trnc" doesnt belong to the Turkish Cypriots alone. The entire island belongs to both communities. YOu cant just steal peoples property, kick them out and make your own governing state.

and dont worry the Greeks dont care to rule you. and neither do the GCs.

I agree with you magikthrill so why did the Greek Cypriots try to kill the Turkish Cypriots between 1963-1974 and cleanse the island of them? Now you can give me the counter argument that it wasn't ALL Greek Cypriots but they are all guilty. Why didn't ALL Greek Cypriots jump up and down between 1963-1974 and stop the terror against the Turkish Cypriots? Afterall aren't we all Cypriots?

If the Greek Cypriots managed to cleanse of the Turkish Cypriots in Cyprus then there wouldn't be a problem today.

The Greek Cypriots failed to cleanse of the Turkish Cypriots so all of a sudden Greek Cypriots jump up and down and yell 'WE WANT PEACE AND THE TURKS TOOK OUR LAND'

I find it sad that the Greeks are using the motto - "IT'S OKAY TO TAKE THE TURKISH PEOPLES LAND AND CLEANSE OF THEM, BUT IF WE LOSE OURS, LETS COMPLAIN AND OPPRESS THEM WITH EMBARGOES"

We know that Greeks don't want to govern Turkish people, because they don't want us to start off with magikthrill.

Archbishop Makarios - The So Called President of The Republic of Cyprus. The man that was supposedly fair to Turkish and Greek Cypriots. His very own words (Seriously I cannot comprehend what argument Greeks have after reading these quotes....it is in black & white before you. Many more where these came from!!) -

There is high level of unemployment amongst the Turkish Cypriots. Characteristically it is said that there is no activity in the so-called “Turkish Area” with the exception of “Bel-Cola” (soft drink bottling factory). The whole of the Turkish Cypriot labour force remains inactive”. The Turkish workers have received heavy blow. Normally the Greek employers employ approximately 80% of the Turkish labour forced. The Turkish workers and the Turkish community in general have suffered great privation and have been forced to depend on humanitarian aid for their existence. The net result of this compulsory inactivity will be felt later on. Because inactivity is the source of loss of moral and will be the cause of a general economic, moral and psychological collapse. When Cyprus joins the Greek state Cyprus will offer considerably in this area to the whole Greek society. (He then was talking about social insurance scheme). (Cyprus President Archbishop Makarios, February 1964)

The epic grandeur and glory of EOKA'S liberation struggle has laid the foundation - stone of national freedom. This freedom it is our sacred duty to safeguard and complete. National struggles never come to an end. They merely change their form, preserving deep down the same substance and the same content. The realisation of our hopes and aspirations is not complete under the Zurich and London Agreements. The glorious liberation struggle, who, whose fifth anniversary we celebrate today, has secured us advanced bastions and impregnable strongholds for our independence. From these bastions we will continue the struggle to complete victory. There is nothing impossible for man when he works for something he believes in. Let us work with faith for the future of our country and let us be certain that the task we began five years ago will soon be completed and bear fruit.
(Cyprus President Archbishop Makarios, 1st April 1960)

[magikthrill]

Um...

if you think you are being clever by providing me with information that almost everyone on this forum is aware of than think again.

I never condoned the actions of GCs in the 1960s with the persecution of TCs. However, if you believe its ok to steal the land of GCs and build your own state on this land then you are justifying the actions the GCs took against TCs during those times since you are acting in a similar manner.

As far as enosis is concerned weve been through this a million times. This was 40 years ago. Not today. Even when the greek military dictatorship ivnaded Cyprus the invasion was AGAINST MAKARIOS. Do you know why? Because Makarios had realized by then that Enosis was unachiavable. Did your biased sources forget to mention this to you?

Now heres a scenario for you: Assume that TCs in Cyprus were 80% and GCs were 20%. IF TCs wanted enosis with Turkey do you think
a) that would have been wrong
b) anything could have stopped them?????

[Deejay]

if you think you are being clever by providing me with information that almost everyone on this forum is aware of than think again.

magikthrill, words from leaders are very strong and will always stick out in the minds of people. Makarios sill has loyalists today and the words I have 'bolded' for you apply for eternity.

eg 'National struggles never come to an end. They merely change their form, preserving deep down the same substance and the same content.'

What am i supposed to think? If you were me, would you simply ignore it and say 'What the heck, it doesn't apply anymore, people have moved on with their lives.'

Also the recent referendum displayed that a UN sponsored plan is not in the interests of the Greek Cypriots. In the plan more than 100,000 Greek Cypriots were allowed to settle back in Nth Cyprus over time. They still said 'OXI'. So one cannot help but think, What do GCs really want? Is it ENOSIS?

It is obvious that everything cannot go back to pre 1974 but this was a chance. Greeks talk of 200,000 GC refugees displaced..what about the Turkish Cypriots displaced from the 1950's when the terror began on TC's? If you come to Australia file, you will hear the stories of how TC's were given visas in 'one day' to leave Cyprus or else. What is going to happen to these people? Will they get their land back or their homes?

It is obvious that the answer to this question is OXI also. There is just over 1 million TCs that migrated from Cyprus since the early 1900s to today. Cities in Turkey such as Mersin, Alanya, Istanbul, Ankara and Antalya proove this have many thousands of TCs. England has 200,000+ TCs alone, and Australia around the 40,000 mark.

We as TCs accept this fact that these people cannot go back. I also accept the fact that my family cannot go back to their village in Limasol. It's in ruins..a few bricks left....what will I do with those few bricks in an empty village?

I never condoned the actions of GCs in the 1960s with the persecution of TCs. However, if you believe its ok to steal the land of GCs and build your own state on this land then you are justifying the actions the GCs took against TCs during those times since you are acting in a similar manner.

It wasn't stolen file, Denktas & Kypriannou signed an agreemnt to have it this way. It was either a 6 canton solution for TCs around Cyprus or a Northern Cyprus. If the GCs opposed this, why didn't they oppose this back in the 70's when Denktas and Kypriannou were sitting at the table?Once again GC leaders agreed to this just like the 1960 constitution. You can't complain to something that you have signed.

As far as enosis is concerned weve been through this a million times. This was 40 years ago. Not today. Even when the greek military dictatorship ivnaded Cyprus the invasion was AGAINST MAKARIOS. Do you know why? Because Makarios had realized by then that Enosis was unachiavable. Did your biased sources forget to mention this to you?

The Greek military came too late, and what they did was wrong. They instated Sampson as the President..a terorist. This was very wrong. So what did Turkey do you may ask? They got rid of Sampson and put Makarios back in the Presidential seat...even though Makarios was pro-ENOSIS, he was the lesser of the evil and was diplomatic. Read up on this one.

Now heres a scenario for you: Assume that TCs in Cyprus were 80% and GCs were 20%. IF TCs wanted enosis with Turkey do you think
a) that would have been wrong
b) anything could have stopped them?????

Very good question. I'll answer this diplomatically.

I go by a popular saying "We do not wish to have an inch of anybody elses land, but at the same time I do not wish to concede an inch of mine" (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)

I would have no right as a TC to want to annex Cyprus to Turkey if the scenario above was the case. An agreement was signed on the international stage to say this island is owned by Greeks and Turkish people. What a beautiful agreement. That's final.

We must respect what is established. The GCs did not respect the ROC because it apparently gave too much power to TCs. The GCs should not have accepted this agreement. They should have spoke up in Zurich in 1959 instead of doing it the cunning way and telling lies to the world that the ROC is good for them.

I went to KOS last year and the first thing I saw when I arrived there was a Turkish flag and a mosque. All this on a Greek island. This was marvellous. I extend my gratitude to the Greek people for showing their true democracy.

I went to Istanbul last year also. I went to Beyoglu a popular upper class pasrt of Istanbul. Greek music was blaring out of Greek taverns with people eating and drinking. The biggest Orthodox church is there. Excellent..let the Greek people of Turkey worship in peace.Wow! I loved it....long live the friendship between Greeks and Turks!

Now with the above scenarios the land belongs to each seperate government and is not shared. So there will be no problems. Everything is 'in-line.' That is why it works in Turkey & Greece but not in Cyprus. It is because Cyprus is Greek & Turkish.

To tell you something magikthrill, my best friends in Australia are mostly Greek Cypriots and Greek. We spend heaps of time together. I can say that we are brothers...willing to die for eachother. We talk about Cyprus in depth. We never see eye to eye. I wish all these problems never existed. I don't want to see problems between Greeks and Turks happen ever again.

If a so-called formal solution was put in place tomorrow and all these problems started again..I will be extremely furious because I don't want to see mothers cry anymore...ever.

Im willing to sacrifice my land in Sth Cyprus to see this. I'm willing to be the best of neighbours with Greeks where hopefully one day the there will be no physical border...but simply a political border. Two seperate governments, one Greek and one Turkish tied into a central government that represents Cyprus. This is what the TCs want.

[magikthrill]

It wasn't stolen file, Denktas & Kypriannou signed an agreemnt to have it this way. It was either a 6 canton solution for TCs around Cyprus or a Northern Cyprus. If the GCs opposed this, why didn't they oppose this back in the 70's when Denktas and Kypriannou were sitting at the table?Once again GC leaders agreed to this just like the 1960 constitution. You can't complain to something that you have signed.

I'm sorry maybe I'm ignoratn but can you show me the exact source where Kyprianou claims all property stolen by Turkey is lawfully owned by TCs?

And why hasn't Turkey used this document when it was being sued in the ECHR for stealin property??

The Greek military came too late, and what they did was wrong. They instated Sampson as the President..a terorist. This was very wrong. So what did Turkey do you may ask? They got rid of Sampson and put Makarios back in the Presidential seat...even though Makarios was pro-ENOSIS, he was the lesser of the evil and was diplomatic. Read up on this one.

Why do you even bother quoting me if youre just gonna continue your own version of the story????? Makarios knew ENOSIS could not be achieved after before 1974. And how did Turkey reinstated Makarios? Maybe you should do some reading up?

Very good question. I'll answer this diplomatically.

I go by a popular saying "We do not wish to have an inch of anybody elses land, but at the same time I do not wish to concede an inch of mine" (Mustafa Kemal Ataturk)

I would have no right as a TC to want to annex Cyprus to Turkey if the scenario above was the case. An agreement was signed on the international stage to say this island is owned by Greeks and Turkish people. What a beautiful agreement. That's final.

Again WHY do you even bother quoting me. Did you understand the hypothetical situation I gave you? I didn't say assume that the 20% GCs decided to steal the land of the 80% TCs and form their own government. I simply said if CYprus was 20% GCs and 80% TCs (no bizonality) what would happen????

We must respect what is established. The GCs did not respect the ROC because it apparently gave too much power to TCs. The GCs should not have accepted this agreement. They should have spoke up in Zurich in 1959 instead of doing it the cunning way and telling lies to the world that the ROC is good for them.

We actually agree on something. Of course you are overestimating the power GCs had over their affairs. The GCs wanted Enosis with Greece (the majority of GCs hence the majority of ALL Cypriots). Of course no Anglosaxon power would allow us and obviously neither would Turkey.

Im willing to sacrifice my land in Sth Cyprus to see this. I'm willing to be the best of neighbours with Greeks where hopefully one day the there will be no physical border...but simply a political border. Two seperate governments, one Greek and one Turkish tied into a central government that represents Cyprus. This is what the TCs want.

You don't want to be neighbours with GCs. Neighbours means living right next to each other. You want GCs to visit you by showing their passports.

long live the friendship between Greeks and Turks!

you only make a first impression once. youve made yours so you can cut the crap.

[MORALI]

never has it seemed more obvious to me -

the GC's do not and have never wanted the TC's ( many of us have been saying this for years !!)

blah blah blah all you like - The seed is planted in every Greek and GC's mind to hate all Turks.


we dont want you either

draw the line please and stay out of our face

Then the GC's can winge for ever and ever on their own side.
it's a shame there is no European Cup For hate and Propaganda

The GC's would be the Brazil of that Tournament !!

[Deejay]

magikthrill I try being nice to you and you paint a picture that I am somehow being cunning to persuade you and the readers to think I'm a good guy, but deep down I have evil motives.

I don't think I'll waist my time in this forum. People are really going to laugh at your responses to my arguments..but that's ok..i'll leave it at that. I can't believe that you don't even know about the population exchange and bi-zonal structure agreement between Denktas & Kypriannou.

I'll go devote my energies to more positive things such as promoting the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.

Over and out.

[insan]

magikthrill wrote:

As far as enosis is concerned weve been through this a million times. This was 40 years ago. Not today. Even when the greek military dictatorship ivnaded Cyprus the invasion was AGAINST MAKARIOS. Do you know why? Because Makarios had realized by then that Enosis was unachiavable. Did your biased sources forget to mention this to you?

Our "biased" sources says exactly what you say but in addition it says that Makarios was the most powerful obstacle in front of Enosis afterwards 1967. According to Enosists he had betrayed to the national cause by changing his mind in 1967. He changed his mind not because he loved TCs a lot. He kept insisting that TCs are minority.

Coupists first target was Makarios and secondly everyone else who were against Enosis. It is obvious that those who would be targeted next were GC left and TCs. Did your biased souurces forget to mention the full story to you?

[cannedmoose]

Over and out.

Allaha şükür...

[MicAtCyp]

We can sit here and talk about similarities between the
Turkish and Greek Cypriots and that is great. But Greek
and Turkish Cypriots also have similarities with Arabs,
Italians Albanians, Macedonians so should we share a
'supposed identity' with them as well?

The point DJ is that there is no other place for us other than Cyprus. And we have to live together and co-exist peacefully. A common identity is a matter of time after the solution especially after we all get bastardised through mixed marriages.The only real difference I see is the language but that can be overcomed by teaching the 2 official languages at school.

Notice I ve seen discussion forums of expats in Australia, Canada etc-I think you are in Australia right? Sorry to say it but they are completely out of reality and like you said totally backwards and nationalistic. I wonder how these guys can go along well in those countries and we here cant

The Turkish Cypriots did not raid towns and round up the
males and kill them and rape women before 1974.

Exactly!They did 100 times more rounding up/killing of males, raping of women etc etc in 1974!

What I will note is that the Turkish army did not round
up children, women and families and bury them alive in
mass graves such as in Atillalar, Sandallar and Murataga
as Greek Cypriot Antonis A (Documentary Maker) has shown
the world.

No, of course not.Three villages were not that many for them.They did it in 300 villages. Man your side is still hiding the massive graves, just a month ago they even ridiculed themselves by digging at places they knew nobody was burried. And please notice one thing. We do have freedom of expression whereas such thing does not exist in the occupied areas. There the truths are whispered we have members in this forum who verified this. You can hear truths from GCs but the fact that you cannot hear the truths from TCs, is not because there are no such truths...

Let us not forget that the Greek population of Cyprus
welcomed the Ottoman Empire to Cyprus after the
Venetians oppressed the Greeks for many years before
that. Many Archbishops were hanged and persecuted under
the Venetian rule. The Ottomans and Greeks fought on the
same side to rid the Venetians.

Sorry but it wasnt like that. The priests welcomed the Ottomans because they gave them liberty of religion wereas under the Venetians they were subjected to the Vatican.The vatican decreased the bishops down to only 3 and got all their property but was not killing them! The Ottomans increased them back to (i think 12-15) and also set them as tax collectors later.Ottoman bureaucracy also required a leader so they even set an Archibishop. In fact what made the priests so rich and powerful both in Greece and in Cyprus are the Ottomans. Besides the Ottomans were not Turks-forget it. Only one Sultan was Turk the rest were Serbs Slavs Croatians Arabs etc.The Turks were equally supressed by the Ottomans and were considered filthy peasants. The general rule was that the sultans and the pasas were "killing machines". Any single disobedience was paid with rivers of blood.They even massacred Turks when they once revolted. Under these conditions yes there was "peace". Anyway thats another story.....

Also the recent referendum displayed that a UN sponsored plan is not in the interests of the Greek Cypriots. In the plan more than 100,000 Greek Cypriots were allowed to settle back in Nth Cyprus over time. They still said 'OXI'. So one cannot help but think, What do GCs really want? Is it ENOSIS?

UN sponsored, US+Turkey fabricated you mean.
He,he,he right. 1% per year over a period of 19 years, and only for people more than 60 y.o, and if they had a property left, and if nobody lives there, and if the property was not knocked down, and if the occupier was settled elsewhere, and if and if and if. In the end ZERO would return and even them they would die in a few years.
No we do not want Enosis. We want Decency

It wasn't stolen file, Denktas & Kypriannou signed an agreemnt to have it this way. It was either a 6 canton solution for TCs around Cyprus or a Northern Cyprus. If the GCs opposed this, why didn't they oppose this back in the 70's when Denktas and Kypriannou were sitting at the table?Once again GC leaders agreed to this just like the 1960 constitution. You can't complain to something that you have signed.

He,he,he and what agreement was that? Did you read it, or they told you fairy tales?

I can't believe that you don't even know about the population exchange and bi-zonal structure agreement between Denktas & Kypriannou.

What population exchange are you talking about?Read the agreement carefully.It suits you fine to call it "population exchange" and compare it with the population exchange of Greece-Turkey in 1923. So bizonal FEDERAL structure of the new state means the properties were not stolen? Just because we agreed for the general system for sharing the Political power in case of a solution this automatically donates you our properties?

The Greek military came too late, and what they did was wrong. They instated Sampson as the President..a terorist. This was very wrong. So what did Turkey do you may ask? They got rid of Sampson and put Makarios back in the Presidential seat...even though Makarios was pro-ENOSIS, he was the lesser of the evil and was diplomatic. Read up on this one.

He,he, he I cant help laughing at your posts my friend.You are no different in vague perceptions that then rest of the expats (GCs included). Sampson was on the seat for 7 days!! He fell and Clerides got the chair.So why should they Invade us?Makarios returned after 5 months when the Invasion was over.

I'll go devote my energies to more positive things such as promoting the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. Over and out.

Well, although I consider every contribution valueable, I think most expats (with the exception of a part of those living in UK) are far away from reality to offer possitive contribution to this forum. No offense meant, it's the same with GCs too.

Back to the real Cypriots then.

Moose you are of them re, Turkce nerede ogrendin?

[magikthrill]

I'll go devote my energies to more positive things such as promoting the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.

Yes maybe you can promote it on UK transportation. Oh wait no thats not allowed anymore.

Over and out.

Good riddens to bad rubbish.