Cyprus-Forum.com

[boomerang]

Bananiot, the problem is not BBF or what ever, its governance of the country and that is the sticking point...Anyway now any new plan will have to be part of the EU AQIS, and this you cannot discount...
I am with Kikapu on this one, in a federated system, not many GCs will move to the Nth and visa versa...the reason I say federal system, is because I do realise that the needs of each communities are different, but the whole spirit of any unidfication must have a Cypriot theme, and not a Greek or a Turkish theme...I am sick and tired of being a bitch or playing second fiddle to both of our backwards motherlands

[humanist]

am with you on this one Boomerang, no friggin Greece or Turkey and those who have a great need to be either Greek or Turkish please pack up your bags and head to the land you call mother.

[Piratis]

So Piratis, now you think it is quite easy to fool the Greek Cypriot people. Surely the great leader will not allow this. Have you ever stopped to ponder on the fact that the Greek Cypriot people were fooled by Papadopoulos in 2003? Do you remember his pre election promises or have you conveniently forgotten? Has he not deceived the Akel supporters that provided 35% of the 52% he obtained in winning the elections back then?

AKEL was in the government until just a few months ago, and when they announced the candidacy of Christofias they did so by saying that "Why not Christofias, it is our turn" and not by criticizing the policies of Papadopoulos which they fully endorsed. If the AKEL people where betrayed by some those are the people of their own party when the central committee of AKEL had voted to support the Annan plan but later was forced to change their mind because they saw that the majority of their supporters would not follow them.

The Annan Plan as it was (not) negotiated by Papadopoulos is stone dead. The next plan will be no better than the Annan plan and certainly no better than the Ideas of Gali

Why doesn't Christofias come out and say this then? Why is he trying to deceive the Cypriot people?

Papadopoulos deemed the third Attila in an article published in "Kyrikas" his party's mouthpiece at the time. Papadopoulos is a born rejectionist and once again I take the opportunity to mention a fact that says a lot about the character of this man: He has rejected and vilified all plans that were put in front of us since 1959, including the London-Zurich agreements that resulted in an independent Cyprus? What more can we expect from this man?

We can expect that he will not accept anything unfair because he never did.

Papadopoulos now clings by the 8th July agreement which lists a set of five principles. The first one says:

Commitment to the unification of Cyprus based on a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation and political equality, as set out in the relevant Security Council resolutions.

I call upon anyone interested and particularly Piratis to go through UN Resolutions 716 of 1991 and 750 of 1992. The last mentioned especially where the content of BBF is clearly described by the Secretary General in his report and unanimously accepted by the Security Council.

And where is any of those resolutions in conflict with the BBF I proposed earlier. Of course we would accept a BBF, the way it suits us, not the way it suits the Turks. Turks made enough gains on our loss with the 1960 agreements.

If after this Piratis continues to live in the clouds then there is nothing anyone can do to help him. In the meantime, Papadopoulos's slide continues and now he commands about 30% of the vote, about the same as Christofias and just more than Kasoulides. This shows clearly that the vast majority of the voters do not want him.

He is a spent force Piratis.

I don't know which polls you are reading. In every poll I see, including the one yesterday by Phileleftheros, Papadopoulos is always ahead and the difference has remained stable since October.
http://www.phileleftheros.com/main/main ... &id=527245

I should remind you that the power of AKEL and DISY used to be 33-34% each not so long ago. However the people punished them for their "yes" and "soft no" in the referendum, while on the contrary they rewarded DIKO and EDEK.

Some years ago it would seem unthinkable that a candidate not supported by any of the two big parties could pass to the second round. Today however not only Papadopoulos will pass to second round, but he will also win the elections either you like it or not.

While for some he might not be their first choice he will be their second choice in the second round. Especially since AKEL and DISY will not dare to cooperate since such action would make obvious the reason of their colaboration and they would loose the elections anyways.

[Bananiot]

Every poll you see Piratis? Have you seen the one in Politis on Sunday, or the latest one of RIK? Why are you lying? The Phileleptheros one is unique but the company that conducted the poll belongs to his ... Minister.

Boomerang, the name of the game is options. It has always been like this. If you think that by being members of the EU we can achieve something better then I refer you to Papadopoulos who in four years has taken the Cyprob backwards, despite being members of the EU. In fact, when one looks at the decisions of the various bodies within the EU, one wonders, who is the member, Cyprus or Turkey?

[Piratis]

I saw the one of RIK, Papadopoulos was ahead in that one also. Phileleftheros one is the most fresh one.

Boomerang, the name of the game is options.

Fortunately we still have options. If we had listened to you it would be "Game Over".

[Bananiot]

I know Piratis, we have two options. Bloodshed and/or partition. Have you made your choice?

[Kikapu]

Bananiot and Piratis,

Thank you both for your answers.

So just to cut to the chase, you are both saying, that the percentage of the "NO" vote on the Annan Plan has not changed at all today. All that may have happened is, the total of 75% "NO" votes are still there, but divided by 3 separate candidates, so in essence, I do not think it would make too much difference who wins the elections, the 75% "NO" votes are still there. I think this should send a clear message to Talat and the gang, that it is not PapaD who did not and does not want anything resembling to the 2004 AP, but rather 75% of the voting GC's. Before my Fanatical TC friends start pointing fingers to the GC's by saying, "Ah,ha, you see, the GC's do not want peace with the TC's", lets reverse the conditions on the AP and lets see how many of the 65% TC's who voted for the AP will remain to be 65%.!!! In my opinion, I think the GC's did the only thing they could have done back in 2004, which was to say "NO", no matter whether PapaD cried or not. This was a referendum for the citizen to decide on their country and future and not a decree by the leaders. How on Earth you can throw 9,000+ pages of information to the people and expect them to make a decision in a week. I hope when the next peace Referendum comes to be voted on, that each side is given no less than 3-6 months, so that it can be discussed in the Papers, TV and Radio.

[zan]

Bananiot and Piratis,

Thank you both for your answers.

So just to cut to the chase, you are both saying, that the percentage of the "NO" vote on the Annan Plan has not changed at all today. All that may have happened is, the total of 75% "NO" votes are still there, but divided by 3 separate candidates, so in essence, I do not think it would make too much difference who wins the elections, the 75% "NO" votes are still there. I think this should send a clear message to Talat and the gang, that it is not PapaD who did not and does not want anything resembling to the 2004 AP, but rather 75% of the voting GC's. Before my Fanatical TC friends start pointing fingers to the GC's by saying, "Ah,ha, you see, the GC's do not want peace with the TC's", lets reverse the conditions on the AP and lets see how many of the 65% TC's who voted for the AP will remain to be 65%.!!! In my opinion, I think the GC's did the only thing they could have done back in 2004, which was to say "NO", no matter whether PapaD cried or not. This was a referendum for the citizen to decide on their country and future and not a decree by the leaders. How on Earth you can throw 9,000+ pages of information to the people and expect them to make a decision in a week. I hope when the next peace Referendum comes to be voted on, that each side is given no less than 3-6 months, so that it can be discussed in the Papers, TV and Radio.

Will you wake up....The 9000 pages were of federal law and had no significance to the overall solution....The original plan is some 200 pages and Tpap and hundreds of Cypriot lawyers worked on it whilst it was being drawn up. Stop just going on with the Greek party line on this and listen to the truth that many a distinguished observer has said. This crap about making a decision in a week is rubbish and you are either lying or are just quoting from Greek propaganda pages. Either read and find the truth or don't comment about things you have not bothered to find out about......The fact that Tpap did not want to have it discussed and could have informed his people as things went on and if he had spent as much money and time on informing his people as he did on the OXI vote campaign then things would be different.......His campaign had OXI T-Shirts being printed and distributed even before the Anan Plan was completed and whilst it was still being discussed.........If that does not tell you something then nothing will get into that tick skull of yours.......The OXI vote was orchestrated and the time it took to get the Annan Plan on the table played into Tpaps hands.....Why did he not do a better job of negotiating and finding a better solution if he did not like it.......It was a good plan but it seems too good in trying to destroy his ENOSIS dreams.....That is the reason for he OXI and nothing else.....You are right that the people had no time to make a choice and that is exactly how Tpap wanted it.

[cymart]

But then so are some of the others as well...I am also of the opinion that Papad. has never wanted a solution based on equal power sharing and I can still remember his articles in the old Kyrikas newspaper about 20 years ago which were always against this kind of solution and proposed maintaining the status quo indefinitely as suggested by people like Dountas and his followers.
I am also sure that Lillikas was put in charge of the campaign against the Annan Plan as soon as Papad. realised his bluff had been called by accepting mediation and the only way out was for him to get the people here to do the dirty work for him!But if the international community really wanted this problem to be solved instead of just botched-up before Cyprus joined the E.U. they should have at least guaranteed it would be enforced in all it's provisions,but nobody was prepared to do that and coupled with the negative campaigning by the rejectionists,people were confused and afraid to take a decision that would have irrevocable consequences if they said yes.......I also believe quite a large number really believed Papad's assurances then that he could get a better solution once Cyprus joined the E.U.
But the last few years have proven him wrong and it will be interesting to see how this affects the votes in February's election.I would suggest that if there is to be another referendum on a future solution-which I personally believe is wrong in principle anyway as it is the responsiblity of the elected leadership to decide on such matters-if they cannot,they should not be in power- because the man in the street cannot possibly be expected to comprehend the legalities and technicalities of such a decision.A good historical example of how the majority can be wrong would be to consider how the Germans supported Hitler in the 1930's and a very recent example is the supposedly 64% majority in favour of Putin in Russias election,even though everyone knows the poll was fixed......
Unless people have have unbiased and informed access to all the facts and can consider them without emotional influences,they cannot be expected to make the right decision which takes into account the international influences and implications as well for example..Cypriot politics are still at an early stage of development and very immature and the world overlooked this fact when they decided to use a referendum to solve this problem.
If it does happen again,then I would suggest they allow plenty of time for free and rational debate and do not enforce deadlines of a few weeks which made people even more suspicious of the motives behind it.....
Above all Zan,there were serious loopholes in the final version of the plan a notable one being about the central bank and how the economy would function-knowing how much Cypriots worship money,this in itself was enough to wreck it!!

[Kikapu]

Bananiot and Piratis,

Thank you both for your answers.

So just to cut to the chase, you are both saying, that the percentage of the "NO" vote on the Annan Plan has not changed at all today. All that may have happened is, the total of 75% "NO" votes are still there, but divided by 3 separate candidates, so in essence, I do not think it would make too much difference who wins the elections, the 75% "NO" votes are still there. I think this should send a clear message to Talat and the gang, that it is not PapaD who did not and does not want anything resembling to the 2004 AP, but rather 75% of the voting GC's. Before my Fanatical TC friends start pointing fingers to the GC's by saying, "Ah,ha, you see, the GC's do not want peace with the TC's", lets reverse the conditions on the AP and lets see how many of the 65% TC's who voted for the AP will remain to be 65%.!!! In my opinion, I think the GC's did the only thing they could have done back in 2004, which was to say "NO", no matter whether PapaD cried or not. This was a referendum for the citizen to decide on their country and future and not a decree by the leaders. How on Earth you can throw 9,000+ pages of information to the people and expect them to make a decision in a week. I hope when the next peace Referendum comes to be voted on, that each side is given no less than 3-6 months, so that it can be discussed in the Papers, TV and Radio.

Will you wake up....The 9000 pages were of federal law and had no significance to the overall solution....The original plan is some 200 pages and Tpap and hundreds of Cypriot lawyers worked on it whilst it was being drawn up. Stop just going on with the Greek party line on this and listen to the truth that many a distinguished observer has said. This crap about making a decision in a week is rubbish and you are either lying or are just quoting from Greek propaganda pages. Either read and find the truth or don't comment about things you have not bothered to find out about......The fact that Tpap did not want to have it discussed and could have informed his people as things went on and if he had spent as much money and time on informing his people as he did on the OXI vote campaign then things would be different.......His campaign had OXI T-Shirts being printed and distributed even before the Anan Plan was completed and whilst it was still being discussed.........If that does not tell you something then nothing will get into that tick skull of yours.......The OXI vote was orchestrated and the time it took to get the Annan Plan on the table played into Tpaps hands.....Why did he not do a better job of negotiating and finding a better solution if he did not like it.......It was a good plan but it seems too good in trying to destroy his ENOSIS dreams.....That is the reason for he OXI and nothing else.....You are right that the people had no time to make a choice and that is exactly how Tpap wanted it.

Then how do you explain, that after 3+ years, that the 75% "NO" vote are still there, as it was back in 2004. If we were to take your way of analysing things and PapaD fooled the people with his OXI T-Shirts and his crocodile tears, that the 75% are not crying to bring back the AP. You say that PapaD fooled the people back in 2004, so what's your excuse today Zan.

As I remember, both TC's and GC's only had a week to understand the AP and vote on it. At the end of the day, it mattered what people understood and what they voted on. If it was not understood, even taking just your 200 pages as the basis, even that would have been too much to read, understand, absorb, discuss and decide in a week. Just imagine what the reaction of the voting people would have been, when told "Oh yes, as soon as you have finished with the 200 pages, there's another 9,000 pages more which are the small prints for those 200 pages".