Cyprus-Forum.com

[cymart]

Sophia,I have tried to summarise the choices for Cyprus as follows:
1) a unitary state like there was for a few years after 1960,but this is no longer an option as Turkey will not agree to it after what happened in 1974 and I doubt if there are many Turkish Cypriots who would either.
2)A bizonal federation which would mean a central government based on equal power sharing for each side with two separate regions that will have a lot of autonomy and a reduction of the area in the north to about 28%,allowing the Greek-Cypriots to return to places like Varosha,Morphou and a number of other villages.
This has supposedly been accepted in principle by both sides since 1977 but there are a number of areas of contention such as guarantees and the question of when Turkey would withdraw most of the army that have been here since 1974 etc.Furthermore,the are several Greek-Cypriot parties who are backing the re-election of the present leader who oppose this kind of solution and his own position is rather ambiguous as he has made contradictory statements many times over the years.
3)partion with two independent states under which Turkey would give back an agreed area of the north to this side.
The second option is obviously the best compromise as it involves concessions and gains for both sides as part of a final solution and this is what has been internationally believed will be agreed.
Option three may seem a simple way out but is fraught with dangers,especially the fact that Turkey could continue to colonise the north as it has done since 1974 and most Turkish Cypriots do not want partition either.The main supporters of this kind of solution are nationalists who prefer each area to be purely either Greek or Turkish and people who consider the present status-quo suits their economic and political aspirations on each side of the line.Bearing in mind the time that has gone by since 1974 and the new establishment which has formed according to the status quo, there are probably more people who unfortunately support the third option than is openly admitted!
Efforts to find a solution so far have failed and the situation has become worse since the 2004 referendum with growing mis-trust developing between the two sides which may prove very difficult to eradicate,even if a compromise deal can be reached in 2008 as a result of a new international initiative which is reportedly planned.
It is a tragic irony that after the Turkish Cypriots demonstrated for a solution in 2003,following which Turkey removed Denktash as their leader,who was widely seen as responsible for the failure of efforts to find a settlement,the leadership of the south now appears to have substituted his role and its reactionary attitude has lead the political climate on this side of the island backwards to the past,rather than forward to a better future....
This is a syndrome which has plagued Cypriot politics and many other facets of social life here for years and unless there is a change of leadership and attitudes it is hard to see how any support for a compromise solution will develop among people on this side of the island,without which no deal will be successful.
Even the attitudes of some of the mis-guided nationalists and extremists who have verbally attacked myself and others who dare to question the current Greek-Cypriot leadership on this site are proof of the scale of the problem we are facing here and show that unfortunately they have learned nothing from their past mistakes:history has a tendency to repeat itself in such circumstances with all that it may imply......
Perhaps the biggest failure is the inability of the Cypriots to understand the need to realise what is feasible,rather than just what is desirable and this has been pointed out by far more eminent and knowledgable persons than myself such as former presidents Vasiliou and Clerides,as well as Rolandis the former Foreign Minister and many other commentators.Justice may be easily called for by endless resolutions and arguments on a legal basis at International and local levels but applying them is another matter and depends on such factors as geo-political interests,as well as winning support from the people with power the to make things happen.On these two very important points,the current leadership has failed due largely to its negative and paranoic approach and lack of diplomatic skills and for this reason alone it is essential that changes take place.We have heard monotonous speeches full of patriotic clap-trap which convince nobody,neither internally and certainly not abroad for decades and there are number of well-known politicians here who have built very lucrative careers on them since 1974-indeed they have become part of the obstacle to a solution in themselves!
Tine is not running out for a solution-it has virtually run out already and time -and the world is passing us by with each day that passes and Turkey quietly but surely continues to consolidate its plans on Cyprus!
All this makes living in present day Cyprus far more depressing than you might expect in such a sunny Mediterranean island!

[Kikapu]

VP,

Serious as that was why 29% was always a ball park figure and always agreed by both sides.

It appears that Kifeas does not agree with your interpretation of "all sides agreed to the 29%" deal. I think it will be a safe bet for you to start from 18% for the "TRNC" and then try to expand out, as the willing GC's that wants to live under the rules of the "TRNC" and the settlers, in order for you to add to the 18%.

Stop there and reverse what you say to a TC perspective, we to do not want to move to a GC state, thats the problem but with a land return and an option to move and live in the TRNC we will allow people the freedom to do what they wish

No one is forcing the TC's to move to the RoC, and if they did, they would already know what the laws are under the 1960 Constitution regarding land and ownership. But what is to stop the "TRNC" passing laws after the GC's settle in the "TRNC" that will not allow GC's to pass their property to their children, but instead need to sell it to a "TRNC" citizen or to the state. Within a generation or two, all the GC's land will no longer belong to them, then you will have a pure Turkish State. This would be a big concern to any GC.

I am suprised you ask this question as land in the TRNC can be sold to anyone remember the Brits and Israelis, but I understand the concern which was also the case for TCs back in the 1960s and why we still dispute the 18% banded around today, but they should be allowed to sell to whom ever they wish like everyone else.

I know the Brits and the Israelis are buying and selling land today, and you can allow them to do that and still have indiscriminate laws against the GC's. If you don't want to live under True Democracy, all sort of "funny business" can happen to "minorities".

As for any TC land disputes going back to 1960's can only be valid, if the land was stolen from the owners, but if monies were paid and papers were signed by the seller and the buyer, then I don't know what kind of dispute you could be having.

Im not that computer advanced to draw lines but we would probably lose most of the west of the TRNC and of course Maraş

I'll make it easy for you VP. The area you are looking at, at best will be a direct line from Kyrenia to Nicosia to North of Famagusta. The "TRNC" would be the North Eastern Quadrant of the island of Cyprus. How can you have such a small place and hope to make it into a "country" ??. I still think the best option for us TC's would be to go the True Federation System with 2 states under a strong Federal Government, along with Kifeas's power sharing plan. If all the majority of the TC's in the Parliament vote no, then you have your veto vote against the GC's who may try to pass any laws that will be against the best interest of Cyprus or it's citizens.

[sweetie pie]

Excuse me boomerang, how the hell would you know my achievements in life? It sounds like you have not achieved anything, thats why you are being mean..

I am not being mean just answering like for like. You on the other hand have been aggressive and foul mouthed and on another thread were insulting about Cypriot males and you come across like the ignorant adolescent you make out you are. And you call ME mean!

What I have achieved in my life which is considerably longer than yours is my business but just to say that I receive a salaried pension of £23,000 per annum which is less than half of what my annual salary was. This, along with my husbands considerable pension allows us to maintain our house in the UK and buy a house in this beautiful island with little worry about how we will manage. We have three wonderful children one of whom has joined us over here and is happy and working alongside his Cypriot friends.

To some, this might not mean much, as its all a question of perspective BUT we are in our fifties, will never HAVE to work again and are enjoying out retirement which we have worked very hard for.

[boomerang]

Excuse me boomerang, how the hell would you know my achievements in life? It sounds like you have not achieved anything, thats why you are being mean..

I am not being mean just answering like for like. You on the other hand have been aggressive and foul mouthed and on another thread were insulting about Cypriot males and you come across like the ignorant adolescent you make out you are. And you call ME mean!

What I have achieved in my life which is considerably longer than yours is my business but just to say that I receive a salaried pension of £23,000 per annum which is less than half of what my annual salary was. This, along with my husbands considerable pension allows us to maintain our house in the UK and buy a house in this beautiful island with little worry about how we will manage. We have three wonderful children one of whom has joined us over here and is happy and working alongside his Cypriot friends.

To some, this might not mean much, as its all a question of perspective BUT we are in our fifties, will never HAVE to work again and are enjoying out retirement which we have worked very hard for.

Hey... ...they are gonna start talking about us

[sweetie pie]

Well getting rid of the British scum would be the beginning

The same British scum that make up approx 60% of the tourists visiting this island?
The same British scum that come here to live and spend their pensions that they earned in the UK? And to buy property from Cypriots (when they can find one that will not rip them off) using capital that has been earned in the UK?

They live here, they buy property here, they assist in sustaining the economy on this island but hey!! Get rid of all of them and see what happens to the economy!!

He didn't say get rid of them all . . . just the scum . . . you are the one who thinks all the British are scum, because that is how you interpreted the remark

I interpreted it how it was meant to be interpreted. It would be just as offensive if I had said get rid of the Cypriot scum from the UK. Which I wouldn't of course because the majority of Cypriots work and live happily in the UK contributing to society and the economy as a whole. As do the majority of British people on this island.

Nothing wrong in getting rid of scum from any country...the magic word here is scum...unless ofcource you don't mind living amongst scum...

If the magic word was scum then why mention British? Why not say get rid of all the scum from the country. No, I read it correctly the first time. The emphasis was on British scum as opposed to all scum (not that I would use that word to describe anyone)

[boomerang]

Well getting rid of the British scum would be the beginning

The same British scum that make up approx 60% of the tourists visiting this island?
The same British scum that come here to live and spend their pensions that they earned in the UK? And to buy property from Cypriots (when they can find one that will not rip them off) using capital that has been earned in the UK?

They live here, they buy property here, they assist in sustaining the economy on this island but hey!! Get rid of all of them and see what happens to the economy!!

He didn't say get rid of them all . . . just the scum . . . you are the one who thinks all the British are scum, because that is how you interpreted the remark

I interpreted it how it was meant to be interpreted. It would be just as offensive if I had said get rid of the Cypriot scum from the UK. Which I wouldn't of course because the majority of Cypriots work and live happily in the UK contributing to society and the economy as a whole. As do the majority of British people on this island.

Nothing wrong in getting rid of scum from any country...the magic word here is scum...unless ofcource you don't mind living amongst scum...

If the magic word was scum then why mention British? Why not say get rid of all the scum from the country. No, I read it correctly the first time. The emphasis was on British scum as opposed to all scum (not that I would use that word to describe anyone)

Well sweetie pie, I never mentioned british scum...I said all scum from any country...so please do not imply that I said British scum by quoting what said...I just gave my 2 cents...

[Viewpoint]

you can cut Cyprus up into many parts, i think that is better. you can create two National Assemblies which are mutually exclusive with a Jurisdiction over the two Zones, but there is no security, and no sustainability for this island's dwellers until they unite as peoples to represent their belief in Humanity, as a State that respects Individual Rights and that defends them inclusively, without any ethnic bias. This is Bizonal, and, Bicommunal.

Pure utopia when will you realize that what you wish for is not what is attainable within the criteria available. You have the parts to put together a Ford but you wish to a Merc, its just not possible.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

It appears that Kifeas does not agree with your interpretation of "all sides agreed to the 29%" deal. I think it will be a safe bet for you to start from 18% for the "TRNC" and then try to expand out, as the willing GC's that wants to live under the rules of the "TRNC" and the settlers, in order for you to add to the 18%.

I understand now, yes this figure has not been officially accepted as in signed along the dotted line but through out the negotiations after 1974 this was always a ball park figure as seen in the demonized AP. But I dont agree with your take on the TRNC starting from 18% and expanding after that, whats agreed is fixed and unchangable and both sides shoudl know this up front to ensure that ther eis no more land disputes.

No one is forcing the TC's to move to the RoC, and if they did, they would already know what the laws are under the 1960 Constitution regarding land and ownership. But what is to stop the "TRNC" passing laws after the GC's settle in the "TRNC" that will not allow GC's to pass their property to their children, but instead need to sell it to a "TRNC" citizen or to the state. Within a generation or two, all the GC's land will no longer belong to them, then you will have a pure Turkish State. This would be a big concern to any GC.

You place to much trust in the 1960 constitiuion which was the foundation of why things fell apart and it was under this constitiution that land issues were undermined and manipulated by GCs to their advantage, so you just saying that things are fine in the south does not make it so. Whats to stop the "RoC" from passing laws or manipulating current ones to ensure no land is sold to TCs? You appear to yet again show your biased by applying negativity to one side the TRNC when we are still developing we do not caim to be a EU country and any recognition will not necessarily mean we will automatically enter the EU. Any GC deciding to live in the TRNC which would be a recognized country would have imo all the same individual rights as anyone else and just like risk being discriminated against just like everyone who go live in another other country, but I am certain we TCs would not produce laws that will discriminate purely against GCs.

I know the Brits and the Israelis are buying and selling land today, and you can allow them to do that and still have indiscriminate laws against the GC's. If you don't want to live under True Democracy, all sort of "funny business" can happen to "minorities".

You can have these laws anywhere in the world some are written some are not, this is the risk one takes when they decide to go live in anouther country under the laws and prejudices of that chosen country.

As for any TC land disputes going back to 1960's can only be valid, if the land was stolen from the owners, but if monies were paid and papers were signed by the seller and the buyer, then I don't know what kind of dispute you could be having.

Land reposession against unpaid loans, it was common practice that TCs borrowed from GC lenders, TCs repaid loans but GCs did not return collateral. 1963 and the mass movement of TCs out of their villages saw cases where large chunks of argricultural land was left unclaimed and titles changed to GCs, there are many cases where illiterate TCs were duped out of title to land.

I'll make it easy for you VP. The area you are looking at, at best will be a direct line from Kyrenia to Nicosia to North of Famagusta. The "TRNC" would be the North Eastern Quadrant of the island of Cyprus. How can you have such a small place and hope to make it into a "country" ??.

San Marino, Malta, come to mind. You are concentrating on the negatives to convince yourself that it is not possible, with recognition the benefits will assist us improve our economy.

I still think the best option for us TC's would be to go the True Federation System with 2 states under a strong Federal Government, along with Kifeas's power sharing plan. If all the majority of the TC's in the Parliament vote no, then you have your veto vote against the GC's who may try to pass any laws that will be against the best interest of Cyprus or it's citizens.

I still maintain it is not the TCs that will say no to such a structure, so its not us you have to persuade. You really do not know the GC mindset at all, you think because they smile at you and say hi that they are innocents far from it.

[repulsewarrior]

I think that anyone who wants the status quo, and ignores the consequences is living in a utopia.

I think, viewpoint, that you are happy with things they way they are. You want to be Turkish. Cyprus as an island is of no importance to you. Calling yourself Cypriot is a trivial matter which has much less importance. The animosity which is fomented suits you fine, so that you can live in a mono clonal bubble with someone to blame, because freedom comes second to the exclusive nature of your desired lifestyle, you ignore anything that risks a sacrifice for something far better, partition has always been, it seems, your dream come true.

[repulsewarrior]

Furthemore you discuss cutting up the island, and as a result displacing more people, but you continue to ignore the already displaced, and their Right of Return. You have no respect for Humanity or the Rule of Law I'm afraid.