Cyprus-Forum.com

[relatino]

VP, I have a proposal to make to you, which I am sure every other GC and our leadership will accept without any problems or objections.

The proposal is the following:

1.] We agree that the Turkish troops withdraw to the 18.4% of Cyprus and the maximum 25% of the coastlines, and the remaining 17.6% of the now occupied areas will pass to the control of the UN, with a resolution guaranteed under chapter 7 of the UN Charter.

2.] There will be no forceful movement or expulsion of TC population from these areas, nor there will be any GC re-settlement into these areas, out of which the Turkish troops will withdraw.

3.] We will negotiate for a fixed term of one year, so that we examine the prospects of reaching a re-unification solution on the basis of a BBF.

4.] We agree that after the end of this one year time-table (I know you like this word) for negotiations, if there is still no agreement between the two communities for re-unification, we will close the re-unification chapter, call the quits and both sides accept recognized partition, simultaneously with the return by the UN to the RoC of the areas which will be in its control since 1 year earlier.

5.] Those TCs residing in the areas that will be returned by the UN to the RoC, will have an option to either stay as RoC citizens that they are, under a revised constitution on the basis of one man one vote -i.e. without separate TC communal rights; or they will have the right to move into the 18.4% of the areas which will form the recognized independed TC state ("TRNC.")

6.] The international community will provide funding for the re-settlement of these people, as well as for any compensation to GCs that will permanently lose their properties situated inside the recognized "TRNC!"

7.] The RoC will agree not to have any saying or objections to your membership as a separate country into any international organization or into the EU.


How do you find such an agreement, would you and the leadership of your community agree to it, and if not, please explain why?

Any other TC is free to express their opinion of the above, within the framework of the above questions placed for VP to answer.

Kifeas I find your proposal very interesting and I think it could work. The biggest problem remains the land distribution.
The fair thing would be 18% to the turks, but let's admit it, since Political Correctness is so in vogue these days and it seems a rule to give land to any settler (even if he arrived just 2 days ago) just for the sake of it, the cypriots should work on a 18%-35% basis. That is, reach a "lose/lose" situation for both comunities: that would be like a 25% to the turks and the remaining to the cypriots (I know it's not fair, but these are PC times where the reason and justice are left behind for the "that would look nicer" ideology).
But in the end this could be useful for the cypriots, cause that way the whole Island's north coast would belong to the turks and the cypriots wouldn't have to share waters with Turkey (and that would save a lot of future headaches).
As a last thought, I think that whole Nicosia should belong to the ROC.

[Kifeas]

Kifeas,
A staged approach, a try-it-and-see approach ... Seems plausible to me. Certainly worth thinkng about and exploring. If the property question is too much of a hot potato for some then one could try with something else (peace parks, nature conservation zones, for example, or ever-larger demilitarised zones).

In principle a staged approach has got merits.

On your specific proposal I've got two initial queries : first, I'm not sure one year is long enough for any meaningful plan to be tested; and second, as already pointed out many times, it is not obvious that a BBF proposal is the democratic way forward. And as hinted above, property/land might not be the easiest thing to start with.

CopperLine, I have a feeling you didn't grasp what I was proposing! It is not a staged approach or a try-it-and-see approach! Maybe you have to read more carefully what I am saying.

Your side doesn't allow negotiations on the basis of the "8th of July" agreement to proceed, unless there are time-tables in place so that we do not have to negotiate endlessly to reach an agreement, and after the end of the time-tables -they say, there must be a clear binding path to follow for both sides, should the negotiations to reach an agreement do not produce any results. In other words, they want the GCs and the UN to guarantee to them that if after negotiating for a certain period -say one year, without managing to reach an agreement, there should either be a recognized partition or there will be another “ananistic” type of mediation (this time it will be called a “monistic” one -from UN SG Ban Ki Moon,) so that a "new" plan (read a rehashed version of the Anan plan) will be put to a new referendum.

Based on the positions of the TC side on the issue of the "8th of July" agreement, I have offered a proposal that will accommodate precisely these TC desires for negotiations between the two sides on the basis of a one time-table, and then, should negotiations fail for a BBF agreement, to have an in-advance known alternative path for the future.

It has nothing to do with testing the workability of an agreement, either on a stage approach or a try-it-and-see one! I am just offering the TC side a timetable, so that we do not have to negotiate endlessly without ever reaching an agreement, while, as they claim, they are kept and held hostage, in the cold and isolated, without knowing what their future will be!

[repulsewarrior]

The main question remains whether Turkish speaking Cypriots are happy to become a minority in the own country? Think about it.

Whether there is a partition or not are you willing to accept this? I think its a bloody shame.

humanist you have to come to terms with the knowledge that Turks vs Greek Cypriots with their current mindset Turks win hands down, no competition. So all this shit about Turkey does not cut ice with us, Gcs need to do a lot of soul search as to why they do not want to share the island as 2 equal communities with equal political rights, what have they got to fear unless they have other things in mind which is what we truly believe nad why they avoid any form of structure where we can so no.

...you hit the nail on the head viewpoint.

when you say, however that your brothers stabbed you in the back in 1974, i disagree. No one went out to support the mad men who were feeding their lust. You say the Turkish Army protects you, but i say Cypriots are very tolerant, and not prone to the violence you fear, witness the mighty american army in iraq, or the Palestinians in their fight with Israel. I'd like you to recall how many times Makarios escaped the plans for his assassination.

what exists on Cyprus is a Politic which is engineered.
you have a State which was based on Modern ideals
you have Government which serves a majority

none of it is real, and it must change because it is unnatural, and anathema to the betterment of the Human Condition.

Cypriots, never had an identity with Statehood until 1960. Whatever the Government had in mind, by 1963, as adversaries, these political leaders chose to promote the identities they had created for their constituents, as 'Greeks' or 'Turks', (which served the interlocutors as well) in an exclusive manner. in my mind the situation has evolved, so that what is lacking is a National Assembly where Greek Cypriots can sustain themselves as a majority, like their brethren the Turkish Cypriots, both must recognise the role they must play toward minorities in their respective societies, to prosper. Our State, the Republic of Cyprus, need not cease to exist, or to be Sovereign, if with its Constitutional reform, it will defend our Rights as Individuals, representing us as a People united, without the bias of any culture, as this island's dwellers.

with two National Assemblies, as well as one State, we respect the principals on which this country was founded, being Bicommunal and we will finally serve Mankind as a model where others may find a change which they can emulate.

as for the land, many of you already know my views, and again i suggest to you that Bizonal, does not mean two geographical parts.

like a bicycle, it consists of many parts, even the wheels comprise components. enclaves many or several in each 'half' serves to protect the fabric of what has evolved until today. adding the pockets will serve all our rights to free association, movement and expression, it will be an opportunity to offer the Settlers homes, instead of houses, it will allow for our recognition of the already displaced with repopulation, and their Right of Return, as communities whether 'Turkish' or 'Greek', that are sustainable.

viewpoint i would like to remind you that the world is a different place. in 1963, blackmen hung from trees, back in the USA. i suggest to you that 'you' must change, like 'we' must change. and may i add if we don't embrace the future, there is always a cost to pay. You/we cannot resist change, so that things can stay the same.

the question is, what can be done to sustain Cypriots, their way of life, and their history, which has been refined over Millenniums, as well as Centuries, whether Turcophone or Grecophone (or as Neanderthals), 200years from now, when demographically they too will most likely be represented as a minority in a much larger population on this island?

[CopperLine]

Your side doesn't allow .....

Kifeas,
Which 'side' is that ? I thought that you were asking what posters' various reactions would be to your proposal. I thought that you were asking people not to just parrot any official 'approved' line

Regarding the try-it-and-see staged approach that I thought you were suggesting, I stand corrected - I realise following your clarification that that wasn't the proposal. Fair enough.

In that light I'd throw in my proposal for consideration as well. Why ? If lack of confidence or trust is one of the main barriers to negotiation let alone any movement, then let's gradually do things - low key things - which will gradually build confidence and trust.

Incidentally does your proposal entail the suspension of private or individual property claims ? If it does then the major problem that arises, if I've understood it correctly, is that the terms of the final settlement (assuming it actually did result in partition) would constitute a further violation of human rights (according to the Euro.Conv. on HR). (This is the problem I was trying to highlight in a different thread with Nikitas recently).

[humanist]

The question remains, if you got your recognotion and you have your trnc are you happy to keep granting Turks citizenship to exceed your population?


Very simple question really.

I am for giving you your 18% land and let you go on your way. With all rights to the RoC cancelled till Turkey gains EU memberhip and allows you to do what ever you want.

[sweetie pie]

Why are you guys so suprised? Phoenix has the courage to say how the majority of GCs view us TCs, foreigners in our own country, who canonly stay if the GCs say so. Wise up TCs we have our own country recognized or not it much better than uniting with a Phoenix mentality therefore redereing to yourselves to GC whims.

Having lived on this island for quite a while and talking to many Cypriots about the problems then I do not think the majority of the Greek speaking Cypriots do feel as Phoenix. They look on the Turkish speaking Cypriots as their brothers. Its the Turkish that they have a problem with.

[humanist]

I support Kifeas' proposition lets give them their 18.4% of land and they can have their independence. Lets finish this fiasco.

[MR-from-NG]

I support Kifeas' proposition lets give them their 18.4% of land and they can have their independence. Lets finish this fiasco.

Sorry Humanist but what is it you are exactly offering us? 18% of what? Are you in possession of the territory you are offering the 18% of?

Please enlighten us all. Are you or at anytime in the last 33 years been in a position to call the shots?

[Kifeas]

I support Kifeas' proposition lets give them their 18.4% of land and they can have their independence. Lets finish this fiasco.

Sorry Humanist but what is it you are exactly offering us? 18% of what? Are you in possession of the territory you are offering the 18% of?

Please enlighten us all. Are you or at anytime in the last 33 years been in a position to call the shots?

He is offering the 18% of what the UN and EU member RoC -the only recognized legal state entity on this island, has the title deeds on its name! Of course, in a lowlife outlaws, crooks, assholes and thieves culture, out of which you seem to perfectly come from; when one steals something, it is assumed that he automatically has the “ownership” of it; but in real life this is not the case!

[MR-from-NG]

I support Kifeas' proposition lets give them their 18.4% of land and they can have their independence. Lets finish this fiasco.

Sorry Humanist but what is it you are exactly offering us? 18% of what? Are you in possession of the territory you are offering the 18% of?

Please enlighten us all. Are you or at anytime in the last 33 years been in a position to call the shots?

He is offering the 18% of what the UN and EU member RoC -the only recognized legal state entity on this island, has the title deeds on its name! Of course, in a lowlife outlaws, crooks, assholes and thieves culture, out of which you seem to perfectly come from; when one steals something, it is assumed that he automatically has the “ownership” of it; but in real life this is not the case!

Yeah, UN and the EU. They really care don't they