Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

Piratis,
You point out an important factor in any political settlement namely

5) The plan legalized the violations of our human and democratic rights.

But here is the strategic choice that *all* peace plans oblige one to make : EITHER, a peace plan/settlement basically says 'here is the broad proposed settlement between states, between warring parties, between erstwhile enemies; we don't pretend to address (let alone remedy or redress) the individual human rights abuses and democratic violations that occurred during the war or as a consequence of the war; all we are trying to do is establish a general peace; that general peace may contain many individual injustices, but a general peace is worth the continuation of some, even many, individual injustices.'
OR, forget a general peace plan/settlement and instead try to secure, redress and remedy for all the individual cases human rights violations and other injustices.

The Annan Plan certainly had dangers that it prioritised a peace settlement over the settlement and remedying of individual violations or abuses. By contrast, the pursuit of individual cases through the ECHR might more obviously secure individual justice but it does not (can not) bring a general peace settlement.

In the first option it is states that have rights and duties that are to be upheld, whilst in the second case it is individuals a who have rights and duties which must be upheld. The trouble is that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to pursue both paths at the same time. Each path compromises the ability of the other to realise its objectives. For example, suppose you favour a comprehensive peace settlement negotiated between the parties to the dispute then those parties might say 'forget the detail of who owns that particular acre of ground because we're going to transfer the whole of this district to that federal state'. But if you as an individual were the rightful owner of that particular acre this ignoring of your particular claim would be a further insufferable cost, a further violation of your rights, a further source of animosity .

Thus, with general peace plans we're always faced with the danger or dilemma of accepting peace without justice, or in rejecting a general peace plan, trying to pursue justice in the absence of peace. As both paths are pursued and as time goes by, each confounds the chances of the other being realised. Thus, in time, because a timely strategic choice could not be made, neither strategy can be fulfilled. And that, in my view, is the nature and origin of the current stalemate.

And that is why the government bond scheme was thought up. They are tradable, sellable and appreciate as would property prices.

They were NOT tradeable (at least for the first 10 years if my memory serves correctly) they were not sellable, and the market price was totally unknown.They were not even having a secure interest rate. And they represented nothing, your property would just go as a gift to someone else. guess what upon maturity date you would be lucky if those bonds would be enough to buy a bicycle.
Man do you know ANYTHING about bonds that represent nothing???

Furthermore we are talking here for a new Government where the GCs would finance by 90%+ at least for the first 10 years. Supposing those bonds had some value (which they wouldn't anyway) 90% of that value would come from taxing the GCs themselves. In other words the GCs would compensate themselves by 90% for their own lost properties so that the TCs+settlers get a free present.

How clever you are Zan!!!

You can bet your last dime that any plan that dares touch on property ownership rights will never be accepted by the GCs.

Btw how many bonds would you like to receive for your property in the Green line?

The first thing is I would accept what my property is worth...What is the point of putting up an idea without accepting it myself....I am willing to make the compromises that are needed Pyro and not be as pig headed as you people are being. You give us some false attachment to your property when all you care about is the power that will give you in return.......As for not accepting any compromise on property....Be prepared to lose it for ever then because that issue will not be reverted. There can be no mass movement of people...That is for sure...Accept it or worry to your grave.

As for compensation and trading value......So what if there is a ten year wait.....How many years have you been waiting for so far and have got nothing....If that is your attitude along with Tpap and Piratis...Of all or nothing then you will be waiting for the all for a long long time.

The way I see it also is that you can foot the bill for compensation because it is you that has benefitted from the Cy[rob all these years and not us. We are still four to five times poorer than you because of embargoes and the siege you hold us under so why should you benefit from our misery once again. How about asking Greece to foot the bill seeing that they instigated the coup.........AND...It has been your government that has refused to return the Zurich agreement back as it should be so why blame us.

No matter which way you guys approach this problem, you are hell bent on putting all the blame on us in anyway you can. This is what I have been explaining to Bir all this time but his faith that he can win you over is still there. Every time a solution is put forward or an idea as to how to go forward you turn like vultures on us without wanting to pay in any shape or form for what you did and have been doing. We have stayed in limbo waiting for a solution while you exploit every Cypriot opportunity to make yourselves richer and you still want compensation from us....Tell me when you want your pound of flesh as well and perhaps we can forgo the blood spilt from it..

Come on be honest for once and stop this crap you are giving us about wanting a solution....Say " Give us our property and the island or die" and stand by your beliefs...At least I can appreciate Piratis and Kifeas saying this for once when it comes to straight talking.....

[Pyrpolizer]

The first thing is I would accept what my property is worth...What is the point of putting up an idea without accepting it myself....I am willing to make the compromises that are needed Pyro and not be as pig headed as you people are being. You give us some false attachment to your property when all you care about is the power that will give you in return.......As for not accepting any compromise on property....Be prepared to lose it for ever then because that issue will not be reverted. There can be no mass movement of people...That is for sure...Accept it or worry to your grave.

As for compensation and trading value......So what if there is a ten year wait.....How many years have you been waiting for so far and have got nothing....If that is your attitude along with Tpap and Piratis...Of all or nothing then you will be waiting for the all for a long long time.

The way I see it also is that you can foot the bill for compensation because it is you that has benefitted from the Cy[rob all these years and not us. We are still four to five times poorer than you because of embargoes and the siege you hold us under so why should you benefit from our misery once again. How about asking Greece to foot the bill seeing that they instigated the coup.........AND...It has been your government that has refused to return the Zurich agreement back as it should be so why blame us.

No matter which way you guys approach this problem, you are hell bent on putting all the blame on us in anyway you can. This is what I have been explaining to Bir all this time but his faith that he can win you over is still there. Every time a solution is put forward or an idea as to how to go forward you turn like vultures on us without wanting to pay in any shape or form for what you did and have been doing. We have stayed in limbo waiting for a solution while you exploit every Cypriot opportunity to make yourselves richer and you still want compensation from us....Tell me when you want your pound of flesh as well and perhaps we can forgo the blood spilt from it..

Come on be honest for once and stop this crap you are giving us about wanting a solution....Say " Give us our property and the island or die" and stand by your beliefs...At least I can appreciate Piratis and Kifeas saying this for once when it comes to straight talking.....

As always it's a waste of time talking with you Zan. Last effort:

1)Who said that ownership rights mean mass movement??Ownership is ownership, using someone elses pproperty is just use, it carries a price you know.
2)Yes we got 2 times richer than you. We had the chance to work and become so. We are not the ones who put you in an open prison for 30 years! You should have told Denktsh to open you the gates earlier. Haven't you noticed that ever since he opened your gates your standard of living doubled?
3)We are not going to get the headache of having you and the thousands of settlers and the millions of illegalities you created all those years for nothing. Just digest it or there is no solution. In case you think we will ever legalize your stealing of our properties on top of everything you are just dreaming.
4)There are 2 bills to pay in case you haven't noticed. Pay us what you owe us and we will pay you what you owe you. Careful cause you will get bankrupt in such an exchange.

[Pyrpolizer]

Oh one last thing: the solution I want is the one that will serve my INTERESTS. Reunification, peace, and all those nice words, mean nothing if my interests are not served. Each and every refugee's interests are with his properties. Tell me now you want a solution just because you LOVE the GCs

[Pyrpolizer]

Piratis,
The reason thatI mentioned all peace settlements is that it is almost impossible to imagine let alone record any wars in which some human right or civil right has not been violated or abused. Thus irrespective of whether there are winners or losers or neither, any general peace settlement tends to discount or even ignore the indvidual rights abuses and violations in favour of concentrating on the broad political settlement. If, however, indviduals pursue their rights claims - as they are of course entitled to do so - then, I was arguing, this complicates and even inadvertently subverts efforts to secure a general settlement.

You say that

A war can end without winners or losers, in which case nobodies rights need to be compromised, and no land has to be transfered from one to another.

May be so in principle; but I can't think of a single historical example in which a war has been fought in which someone's rights have not been abused or violated. Not really a war is it ?!!!

You also say that

What you are referring to is the subset of peace plans, where there is a winner and loser, and the losers makes compromises while the winner makes gains. These "peace plans" are otherwise known as surrender and capitulation agreements.

Except many if not most wars do not have clear cut winners and losers; in fact it is the exception rather than the rule that wars end in either unconditional surrender or capitulation. Most wars end with some kind of ... err ... peace plan in which negotiations between erstwhile warring parties result in a compromise agreement. Sure that agreement might be tilted in favour of one party rather than another but it is rare that it unambiguously accords with the demands of just one side.

My point is that during the last couple of decades, and certainly within Europe (largely because of ECHR provisions), in addition to the formal peace negotiations between state parties to conflict has been added the individual pursuit of justice especially on human rights grounds. All I'm saying is that the pursuit of both paths, and the crossing of these two paths, has served (a) at minimum to complicate matters and (b) quite often served to inhibit progress in the other path. I can see merits in pursuing each path but I also see how each may contradict or impede the other.

Copperline have you seen the TCs compromising on anything??? All I see them is thinking they will get even more rights and priviledges than what they had with the 1960 agreements, and on top of it get legal deeds for our stolen properties and load on our shoulders their packs of thousands upon thousands of gipsy settlers they brought here to change the demographics.

[joe]

Well, your imagination is running wild but your rest assure I know the attitude. Instead of dealing with the essense of what I wrote you are looking for ways to undermine me.

I am simply pointing out your fallacy. Your guilty of the very things you accuse others on this forum. You are that sheep in the herd that can’t think on his own. Yes.

I know you will keep denying it with that kid caught in the cookie jar attitude. That is fine with me.

Why did you paste the whole article my friend, Bananiot? There was no need for that – take a look below.

You make the same talking points in the very same order?! To me, it’s more than just a coincidence and I wanted to point it out on this forum.

Piratis, you have refused stubbornly to understand what I have been saying over the last four years or so. I tried to put across that what we desire has nothing to do with what we can achieve. Our options are limited, basically because of the limitations of the United Nations that have given us very nice resolutions but no one is interested to implement them, no matter how much we kick and bark.

If we really want a solution we need to take the best available option. If not, the situation cannot continue to stay as it is and time itself will put a gravestone over Cyprus. Your idea that we should wait for the balance of power to change in our favour in order to impose the solution we want absolutely stinks. It is a nightmare senario that only the worst enemies of Cyprus could wish. It is a pity you cannot see this but, mind you, this is what Dountas advised us before he died and Papadopoulos was an admirer of this man.

One had to be realistic and understand that "a settlement could not be the one we desire, but it has to be a compromise, the result of a consensus, a feasible solution".

In the section "Quo Vadis Patria Mea", he also referred to the dangers that Cyprus faced "if we continue to think that we can achieve a just solution as we want it, without taking into account the shortcomings of the U N". The world body could only offer theoretical support, not practical help, and its resolutions, while upholding rights and the rule of law, were like cheques without any value since they could not be implemented.

Separate

He warned that if the stats quo was allowed to drag on, then there was the danger at some stage of the Turkish occupied north gaining recognition as a political entity, even without sovereignty.

I rest my case.

[Bananiot]

If you have an ounce of decency you would admit that I have been saying these staff ever since I joined the forum some four years ago which is way longer than Wednesday's article of Hadjipapas in the Cyprus Weekly. In fact, a simple search can easily reveal the truth.

Can you now comment on the ideas expressed rather than the person expressing them? Do you have the decency?

[boomerang]

Bananiot we all want a united Cyprus...What people disagree is how this new united Cyprus is to be governed...you want to accept your point while you dismiss anyone who disagree with you...There is no crystal ball and seeing that he EU is moving towards a federal system, it makes sence that the new United Cyprus head the same direction...why go against the grain if we are gonna be part of the EU?...it doesn't make sence...

[zan]

The first thing is I would accept what my property is worth...What is the point of putting up an idea without accepting it myself....I am willing to make the compromises that are needed Pyro and not be as pig headed as you people are being. You give us some false attachment to your property when all you care about is the power that will give you in return.......As for not accepting any compromise on property....Be prepared to lose it for ever then because that issue will not be reverted. There can be no mass movement of people...That is for sure...Accept it or worry to your grave.

As for compensation and trading value......So what if there is a ten year wait.....How many years have you been waiting for so far and have got nothing....If that is your attitude along with Tpap and Piratis...Of all or nothing then you will be waiting for the all for a long long time.

The way I see it also is that you can foot the bill for compensation because it is you that has benefitted from the Cy[rob all these years and not us. We are still four to five times poorer than you because of embargoes and the siege you hold us under so why should you benefit from our misery once again. How about asking Greece to foot the bill seeing that they instigated the coup.........AND...It has been your government that has refused to return the Zurich agreement back as it should be so why blame us.

No matter which way you guys approach this problem, you are hell bent on putting all the blame on us in anyway you can. This is what I have been explaining to Bir all this time but his faith that he can win you over is still there. Every time a solution is put forward or an idea as to how to go forward you turn like vultures on us without wanting to pay in any shape or form for what you did and have been doing. We have stayed in limbo waiting for a solution while you exploit every Cypriot opportunity to make yourselves richer and you still want compensation from us....Tell me when you want your pound of flesh as well and perhaps we can forgo the blood spilt from it..

Come on be honest for once and stop this crap you are giving us about wanting a solution....Say " Give us our property and the island or die" and stand by your beliefs...At least I can appreciate Piratis and Kifeas saying this for once when it comes to straight talking.....

As always it's a waste of time talking with you Zan. Last effort:

1)Who said that ownership rights mean mass movement??Ownership is ownership, using someone elses pproperty is just use, it carries a price you know.

Then the Bonds would do the same job for gods sake. Can't you see that. What you are talking about is pride and nothing else. Stop confusing he two. The same goes for you on the waste of time I am afraid but I will not give up on you. You have to learn sometime


2)Yes we got 2 times richer than you. We had the chance to work and become so. We are not the ones who put you in an open prison for 30 years! You should have told Denktsh to open you the gates earlier. Haven't you noticed that ever since he opened your gates your standard of living doubled?

You are not he ones hat kept us in a prison hahahahahha that about says it for you....What a plonker. Do you guys know the consequences of anything you do. You are so insular that you have no feelings for any one else. You block even he simplest of football matches and you are not he ones holding us hostage...Give me a break for fucks sake...And I suppose you are now going to tell me that you wanted the gates open all the time....hahahahahahahaaa

3)We are not going to get the headache of having you and the thousands of settlers and the millions of illegalities you created all those years for nothing. Just digest it or there is no solution. In case you think we will ever legalize your stealing of our properties on top of everything you are just dreaming.
That is because you have no shame and with that no responsibilty with the illegalities and the tricks you played on us and the EU and UN...Never mind though....It looks as if hey will pay you back with interest.

4)There are 2 bills to pay in case you haven't noticed. Pay us what you owe us and we will pay you what you owe you. Careful cause you will get bankrupt in such an exchange.

And that is what is scaring he life out of you guys. The fact hat the bills are subject to responsibility and that now the world is realising the truth about how all this came about. You hit us from the back and then want compensation for the damage to our car.....Nice try baby.