Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

"So simply get it out of your mind that a solution is possible today or in the near future. This is going to be long struggle and we should be prepared for it and plan for the long term."

How can we prepare for the longer term what as we speak, Turkey is forcing the TC's to accept 50000 'citizens' and god knows how many more in the forceable future. Are you prepared to wait 10, 20 years facing a million Turks?

We need to be realistic because time simply isn't on our side. I understand your arguments and I also want a solution that is acceptable but as time goes on the accpetable receads and the 'bad' gets even 'worse'. It is a catch 22 and I doubt that our politicians are skillful enough to navigate the RoC over the next 10, 20 years of no solution.

I don't have the answers, but we need to get a grip and at least get the TC's to start trusting us and perhaps they will then be in a position to stop what is currently happening in the north.

Totally right mikkie if only more GCs could think like you. The last 5 years of papdop rule has made no progress with regards to solving the Cyprus issue, you cannot blame the other side for everything anyone that does is only kidding themsleves and should question their own motives as being extremist.

The GCs have to get TCs on their side by allowing them to become financially indpendent of Turkey so that we can say no when it matters, although we can try to influence Turkey due to negativity from the south we tend to go along with what they say against you, if the south proved that they have no intention of dominating us by allowing to become financially non dependent on Turkey they day will come when we will say no hold the GCs are that bad after all and we can work witht hese peopel to build a united Cyprus. Unfortunately to date all we have seen and experienced since the borders opened is negativity and policies to isolate us even further which really works against unification.

[Pyrpolizer]

Just digest it people:
a)If we accepted the Anan Plan we would lose everything even our properties and get a costly partition.
b)If we dared challemge anything at the EU Turkey would "intervene" once again and depart the occupied areas before they even had returned a single village to our refugees.

You are right Pyrpolizer.

The Annan Plan was nothing more that a disguised and costly partition. If we had accepted the Annan plan today we would be trying to solve the much bigger Cyprus Problem that we would have, with much less means (no RoC to even voice our problems in EU or UN).

I personally need a President who will fight for my rights. Papadopoulos proved he is only good for farting.
The question is will Christofias or Kasoulides fight for my rights??? I have my doubts for them too but as the Turks say it's all yazi-tura now (toos-up)

Pyrpolizer, the choices at the current time are limited. No president of small Cyprus is a superhuman that can do miracles.

The choices:

1) Suicide and accept a disguised partition like Annan plan. If we do that, instead of having one legal state (RoC) and one illegal pseudo state ("trnc") we would have two pseudo states, with no international voice since the international and common decisions would all be taken by foreigners instead of democratically by the Cypriot people.

2) Continuation of the current situation, which is bad, but still better than option (1), and also allows the possibility for a fair solution in the future under a different balance of power.

So what do you choose?

2/3rds of the island of Cyprus as free independent democratic state, with another third legally ours but currently under illegal occupation.

OR

2/3rds of the island of Cyprus as a pseudo state without international voice, in a much worst economic condition, and with no prospects of ever recovering what we lost with the war of 1974 since we would have now officially signed them away.

Thats your choices.

Hey Piratis the topic was whether we will choose Papadopoulos once again, not what choices do we have towards a solution. I clearly said I will not.

As for your question you have to remember that time is NOT working in our favor and I include the well meaning TCs in the word "our". As Birkibrisli said a few pages back Rome is burning as we speak.

I don't agree with your opinion that the balance of powers is so much against us that we cannot achieve a solution.
Secondly waiting for an unforseeable time in the future, for the balance of power to shift so much in our favor, that we will have everything our way, tends to underestimate how dynamic the present situation is, and that Rome is already burning, and there might be nothing left after 50 years to save anyway. Let's not forget what is going on among our young generations. Nobody cares Piratis, they say it directly they have no connection, no feelings for the occupied part of Cyprus.

Imo we have a maximum of 5-10 years left, before the situation becomes totally irrevocable both by changes on the ground and by changes in peoples brains and hearts.

The choices we have regarding the solution are directly related to the choice we make during the presidential elections.

Today and during the short term future there is no possibility that an acceptable solution can be agreed. The choice is between (1) a bad "solution" that will be a worst kind of partition than what we have now and will all but eliminate any prospects for liberating the north part of our country but also will make as lose all the control over our international affairs and bankrupt our economy, or (2) no solution.

If you think that Christofias or Kasouledes or anybody else can magically make the UK and Turkey to accept a fair solution for the Cyprus Problem under the current balance of power then you are dreaming. What Christofias/Kasoulides would do is either follow the same policy as Papadopoulos did, or bring back a re-cooked Annan plan.

I know the difficulties about the Cyprus Problem. The question you should ask yourself is: Do we stay with the "very difficult", or do we suicide and make it even worst? The option of "good" or "better" today simply does not exist. The choice is between the "bad" and the "worst".

A shift in balance of powers came when we became full EU members. Explain to me how Papadopoulos utilized this shift in our favor.Explain to me why he has not exercised a single veto so far. Explain to me how this balance of power will favor us when Turkey ends up to a special relation without even recognizing the republic, without letting our ships and planes to dock there, and while all those years kept continuing the occupation and flooding the occupied with settlers.

[BirKibrisli]

Please,wake up everyone...
America has already made her choice. She chose Turkey over the EU...
In last weekend's Turkish air strikes against the PKK bases in Northern Iraq,Turkish jets used the latest American technology to blow the targets up with pinpoint accuracy...With full American intelligence support and cooperation...Turkey's position in the region will only get stronger with time. Unless we have a solution now,over the next 5 years or so,people in the ROC will have one millionTurkish settlers breathing down their necks.

Now,what do you think of the likelihood of any solution not approved by Turkey then? And what do you think of the likelihood of any EU country going to war with Turkey over Cyprus??? As I said before and as Pyro gardash has confirmed,Rome is burning,and our glorious leaders are playing the flute and the ud and the darbuka and...

[Piratis]

Pyrpolizer, the primary reason we joined the EU was for our security. From what I know neither Christofias nor Kasoulides favored a veto in the EU accession of Turkey at the current state. The important thing is what we have this option. If we had accepting the AP this option, along with a ton others, would have disappeared.

Birkibrisli, the USA (and UK) have a very close relationship with Turkey for at least 50 years. There is nothing new there. If you look at the map you will see that we have about 70 million Turks "breathing down our necks" and thats not going to change. However now we at least have a state that can offer some protection against them, where with some agreement like Annan plan those people would be free to roam among and we would have nothing to defend ourselves from Turkey.

Yes, the earlier we have a solution the better. All I am saying is that today a solution is simply not on offer and I don't see it becoming in the near future either.

About the mid to long term future nobody can say how the balance of power will change. Things are moving fast now and anything can change in 10 or 15 years.

[BirKibrisli]

Pyrpolizer, the primary reason we joined the EU was for our security. From what I know neither Christofias nor Kasoulides favored a veto in the EU accession of Turkey at the current state. The important thing is what we have this option. If we had accepting the AP this option, along with a ton others, would have disappeared.

Birkibrisli, the USA (and UK) have a very close relationship with Turkey for at least 50 years. There is nothing new there. If you look at the map you will see that we have about 70 million Turks "breathing down our necks" and thats not going to change. However now we at least have a state that can offer some protection against them, where with some agreement like Annan plan those people would be free to roam among and we would have nothing to defend ourselves from Turkey.

Yes, the earlier we have a solution the better. All I am saying is that today a solution is simply not on offer and I don't see it becoming in the near future either.

About the mid to long term future nobody can say how the balance of power will change. Things are moving fast now and anything can change in 10 or 15 years.

Of course a solution is not on offer,Piratis.
My point is that we,Cypriots,should take the bull by the horn and provide our own solution. We have an agreement already. It is called the Constitution of the Republic of Cyprus. We should agree to implement it as soon as possible. This calls cooperation from Talat and Co I know which will prove impossible. But nothing is stoping Papadopoulos from making an official invitation to the TC community to return to the Republic.
That would put the cat amonst the pidgeons. And things might start rolling from there. But you know and I know that Papadopoulos could never do that. I am not sure if Christofias or the other guy could act differently,but it is worth giving them a chance. You never know...

[Bananiot]

Well said Birkibrisli (Turkey's position in the region will only get stronger with time. Unless we have a solution now, over the next 5 years or so, people in the ROC will have one million Turkish settlers breathing down their necks) but the options for solution that lay infront of us do not contain (unfortunately I say) the senario for the return of the TC's to the Republic. Thus, we need to take a realistic bull by the horn and go head on for BBF, which is the only option available.

[boomerang]

Well said Birkibrisli (Turkey's position in the region will only get stronger with time. Unless we have a solution now, over the next 5 years or so, people in the ROC will have one million Turkish settlers breathing down their necks) but the options for solution that lay infront of us do not contain (unfortunately I say) the senario for the return of the TC's to the Republic. Thus, we need to take a realistic bull by the horn and go head on for BBF, which is the only option available.

Bananiot, I agree a solution must be found as soon as possible, but even with BBF, especially with the Annan plan, how can you stop the influx from turkey flooding Cyprus enroute to the EU?

Do you think the tcs will have a say when turkey is doing all the negotiations?

[Piratis]

Pyrpolizer, the primary reason we joined the EU was for our security. From what I know neither Christofias nor Kasoulides favored a veto in the EU accession of Turkey at the current state. The important thing is what we have this option. If we had accepting the AP this option, along with a ton others, would have disappeared.

Birkibrisli, the USA (and UK) have a very close relationship with Turkey for at least 50 years. There is nothing new there. If you look at the map you will see that we have about 70 million Turks "breathing down our necks" and thats not going to change. However now we at least have a state that can offer some protection against them, where with some agreement like Annan plan those people would be free to roam among and we would have nothing to defend ourselves from Turkey.

Yes, the earlier we have a solution the better. All I am saying is that today a solution is simply not on offer and I don't see it becoming in the near future either.

About the mid to long term future nobody can say how the balance of power will change. Things are moving fast now and anything can change in 10 or 15 years.

Of course a solution is not on offer,Piratis.
My point is that we,Cypriots,should take the bull by the horn and provide our own solution. We have an agreement already. It is called the Constitution of the Republic of Cyprus. We should agree to implement it as soon as possible. This calls cooperation from Talat and Co I know which will prove impossible. But nothing is stoping Papadopoulos from making an official invitation to the TC community to return to the Republic.
That would put the cat amonst the pidgeons. And things might start rolling from there. But you know and I know that Papadopoulos could never do that. I am not sure if Christofias or the other guy could act differently,but it is worth giving them a chance. You never know...

Bir, from the Republic of Cyprus there is not just an invitation, but in fact a demand for the return to legality. The only reason we are having negotiations is that the Turkish side refuses to accept such thing. If TCs tomorrow decide that they want to return to Republic of Cyprus, there would be no other obstacle, apart from Turkey of course.

[zan]

Pyrpolizer, the primary reason we joined the EU was for our security. From what I know neither Christofias nor Kasoulides favored a veto in the EU accession of Turkey at the current state. The important thing is what we have this option. If we had accepting the AP this option, along with a ton others, would have disappeared.

Birkibrisli, the USA (and UK) have a very close relationship with Turkey for at least 50 years. There is nothing new there. If you look at the map you will see that we have about 70 million Turks "breathing down our necks" and thats not going to change. However now we at least have a state that can offer some protection against them, where with some agreement like Annan plan those people would be free to roam among and we would have nothing to defend ourselves from Turkey.

Yes, the earlier we have a solution the better. All I am saying is that today a solution is simply not on offer and I don't see it becoming in the near future either.

About the mid to long term future nobody can say how the balance of power will change. Things are moving fast now and anything can change in 10 or 15 years.

Of course a solution is not on offer,Piratis.
My point is that we,Cypriots,should take the bull by the horn and provide our own solution. We have an agreement already. It is called the Constitution of the Republic of Cyprus. We should agree to implement it as soon as possible. This calls cooperation from Talat and Co I know which will prove impossible. But nothing is stoping Papadopoulos from making an official invitation to the TC community to return to the Republic.
That would put the cat amonst the pidgeons. And things might start rolling from there. But you know and I know that Papadopoulos could never do that. I am not sure if Christofias or the other guy could act differently,but it is worth giving them a chance. You never know...

Bir, from the Republic of Cyprus there is not just an invitation, but in fact a demand for the return to legality. The only reason we are having negotiations is that the Turkish side refuses to accept such thing. If TCs tomorrow decide that they want to return to Republic of Cyprus, there would be no other obstacle, apart from Turkey of course.

Bir.....I think you need to clarify which constitution you are talking about....I think he thinks you mean the current one and not the one signed in 1959

[Piratis]

Well said Birkibrisli (Turkey's position in the region will only get stronger with time. Unless we have a solution now, over the next 5 years or so, people in the ROC will have one million Turkish settlers breathing down their necks) but the options for solution that lay infront of us do not contain (unfortunately I say) the senario for the return of the TC's to the Republic. Thus, we need to take a realistic bull by the horn and go head on for BBF, which is the only option available.

Bananiot, the thing is that Annan plan was not a solution. So what in fact you are suggesting is to make our problem bigger, not solve it.

A solution was never an option, since the only thing Turks would accept is nothing less than a disguised partition, which would be even worst for us than a clean partition. And of course the great majority of the Cypriot people are not so stupid to accept something that not only it would not solve their problem but it would make it bigger, just so we would get the "unification" sticker and the "good boy" award from the AngloAmericans.

There is a certain level of compromises that can be made, and we have red lines as well. Otherwise lets just offer the whole Cyprus to Turkey and get over with it. (something which wouldn't be far from Annan plan)

Your logic that "Turks will accept only a disguised partition as a "solution" so we should also accept a disguised partition so we can "solve" the problem" is very very flawed, to say the least.

Yes, we made the mistake to say that we would accept a BBF. Now seeing how Beligioum is about to split up I am afraid that even the best of BBF can not really be viable, let alone something like the Annan plan, which was a BBC (C for confederation) and additionally it gave the control of the central goverment to foreigners, it kept the "guarantors", and had a ton of other racist and undemocratic provisions that would make our lifes in Cyprus a living hell.

So yes, we can compromise on a BBF, but at the very least that BBF should be as strong as the one in Belgium is, with no foreign troops, foreign judges, and "guarantors" and land distribution 82%-18%. Anything other than this would be worst than what we have now, and even worst than a clean partition.