Cyprus-Forum.com

[turkcyp]

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[insan]

1) 'Separate majority rule', isn't that an effective veto? If you can concede that this is not absolute (i.e., that it needn't necessarily be applied on EVERYTHING), then we are in agreement, as far as the basic definition goes.

Yes. It is an effective veto right that both communities will have had in boundaries of basic principle of "political equality" and Federal Constitution/Federal laws.

You are right, either community's interests will probably be a drag to define. Turkcyp's suggestion makes a lot more sense - defining common interests and leaving everything else implied as being communal.

I too, agree.

3) Agreed. The point of this question was to see whether you can accept the principle that on matters concerning quantitative allocations, this should be done proportionately to CS population.

[turkcyp]

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[insan]

Separate majority is not an effective veto right. This is one point everybody including many TCs are not realizing. Veto right means that full consensus. Separate majority means the decisions gets not full consensus but majority on each community. That is why you can not talk about veto rights in the congressional environment.

So how you name a situation when if a bill related common interests of both sides has been voted in favour by majority of one side but voted against by the majority of other side? Ain't it a kind of veto? Though I agree with you that it is highly impossible for one side to bring any bill to Senate that is obvious to be rejected majority of other side.

[insan]

In the end, "political equality" is something that pushes both side to compromise on everything related with their common interests. Ain't it excellent? All we need is ability for compromising. Do majority of Cypriots have this ability? If yes, there would be no problem with "political equality" of two communities in a united Cyprus.

[turkcyp]

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[Kifeas]

In the end, "political equality" is something that pushes both side to compromise on everything related with their common interests. Ain't it excellent? All we need is ability for compromising. Do majority of Cypriots have this ability? If yes, there would be no problem with "political equality" of two communities in a united Cyprus.

The problem with political equality, Mr. Insan, is not the political equality itself, but actually whom this political equality is going to be shared with. With so many mainland Turkish settlers remaining back, which as it seems will constitute about 40%-45% of the TC community’s electoral body, the GCs are highly afraid that this political equality they will concede and this “bi-communal” federation they will form, is not going to be with TCs but actually with Turkey. This is the real nightmare of GCs and not so much political equality itself. Given the birth rate that this group of people has, it is highly likely that in 10-15 years they will be the majority of the “TC” community. And as we already know, there is also a percentage of Turkish Cypriots who maintain nationalistic syndromes and close ties with Turkey. Who will then guarantee to the GCs, that whenever the strategic or political interests of Turkey will require her to get involved or patronize the United Cyprus Republic (UCR,) will not blink an eye to those settlers, which together with a small percentage of nationalist Turkish Cypriots, can easily control the “TC” community and thereafter also the UCR? Are the GCs going to share power with the TCs, or the GCs will share power, 25% with TCs and 25% with Turkey –through settlers? Am I exaggerating? I hope not, but it doesn't seem so.

The GC community has so far being complaining and accusing Turkey for dominating and controlling the north, both militarily and politically. Now it is seems that the GC community, through this A-plan "political equality" formula and in conjuction with the big number of settlers that will remain, will also become, together with the TCs, a victim of the same paternalistic stance that Turkey expressed in the north all these years. This time it will be on both communities and on the highest level of governance, up to the federal state level. Turkey will be able to regulate all the political activities of Cyprus, including foreign policy. Do you understand the concerns of the GC community?

I do not want to be sarcastic, but if the TCs have gotten used all these years to the political domination of Turkey, GCs aren’t used to it al all. GCs are highly afraid that if and when such a solution prevails, such phenomena will soon become evident and they will therefore have no other choice than to seek ways to break apart from this situation. That is from where the fear and the claim for a disguised partition originates from. Inevidably, we will have a partition with these zigzag drawings on the map, with 29% of Cyprus territory and 45% of the Cyprus coastline lost for the GCs, forever. And this will happen before even a single GC returns to the north and before a single penny for property compensation is paid. Is this what the TCs want, in the end of the day??

That is why I suggested a bi-zonal federation based not on ethnic lines but instead based on Constituent state residency (like all the other federations in the rest of the world.) Because this formula will include the GCs (even this small 20%,) that will obtain TCCS residency, in this political equality equation. The reason I suggested it this way, is not because of some evil secret idea of GCs to abduct from within the TCCS at some time in the future, but simply to counter balance the very high number of remaining settlers and thus eliminate the risk of GCs and the enire country to find themselves under the political domination of Turkey. It will make a hell a lot of difference, if the progressive, leftist and pro-Cypriot forces within the TC community, co-operate with the GC residents of the TCCS and eliminate this risk.

Do TCs understand GCs fears and concerns, in this issue??

Either we (GCs & TCs) will become a normal E.U. country with our own voice and our own sovereignty, or we will become a protectorate of Turkey. Unless TCs do not really mind if Turkey dominates all of us (Cypriots,) forever. Even worse, what if she does never make it into the E.U., -not because of Cyprus?

TC friends, I do not wish to sound cynical or sarcastic to anyone. Please understand that we also have our concerns that you need to address.

[MicAtCyp]

OK heres a very good argument for our TC friens that I stole from elsewhere:
You can not have 5 wolves and a sheep voting what they will have for dinner

[Viewpoint]

Kifeas
I can see your points here and many TCs are flexible on this issue but isnt it easier just to agree division and for you not to run any risk of being dominated by Turkey???

What would you consider as the right number of settlers that should remain in TCCS to help rid you of your concerns?? and if we send these Turks back to Turkey wouldnt it be a form of ethnic cleansing and infridgement of human rights? if for example the family have children that were born in the TRNC.

[Kifeas]

Kifeas
I can see your points here and many TCs are flexible on this issue but isnt it easier just to agree division and for you not to run any risk of being dominated by Turkey???

Viewpoint, that sentence of yours above, clearly shows that you do not really understand our concerns. We are here to share ideas on how it is possible to do things better.