The Best Cyprus Community

Skip to content


If Majority Rules in Cyprus....

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

If Majority Rules in Cyprus....

Postby insan » Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:59 am

Assessment for Muslims in Greece
View Group Chronology

Greece Facts
Area: 131,957 sq. km.
Capital: Athens
Total Population: 10,662,000 (source: U.S. Census Bureau, 1998, est.)


Risk Assessment | Analytic Summary | References


Risk Assessment
It is unlikely that the Turks in Greece will begin to use militant strategies in attempting to improve their position in the Greek society. This has not been a strategy that has been used in the past, and the group lacks the organization to plan such a strategy. Additionally, there has been an improvement in relations between both the Turks and Greeks inside Greece, and between the Greek and Turkish government. As a result of the mutual cooperation between the two countries after each was hit by earthquakes have opened a new dialog between the two countries. This 'earthquake diplomacy' has not removed the prejudice that exists in the populations, but there is a new willingness to consider some change.

The group does possess the risk factors that tend to lead to protest: repression, political and economic discrimination, support from organized kindred groups, and a fairly new democracy. It is therefore likely that protests will continue, and possibly escalate. If the Turks in Greece organize to greater degree, then the possibility of further protests is enhanced. Of course, none of these statements apply to Muslims outside of Thrace, or non-Turkish Muslims in the general population. While they are still forced to identify their religion on their identity cards, the way other Muslims do, and are subject to the same forms of discrimination, they do not enjoy the same protections under the Treaty of Lausanne. For them, there has been no improvement whatsoever.

top

Analytic Summary
Under the treaty of Lausanne, which ended the Greco-Turkish war in 1923, ethnic Greeks in Turkey and ethnic Turks in Greece were exchanged to be reunited with their kinsmen (TRADITN = 8). However, an exception was made for Turks living in the area of Thrace and Greeks living in Istanbul (TRANS = 1). As a result the Turk minority is concentrated in this area of Greece (GROUPCON = 3). While not considered to be racially different from the Greek population (RACE = 0), the group does speak Turkish, not Greek (LANG = 1), and they have different traditions and customs (CUSTOM = 1) and what has been historically most important, they are Muslim, not Greek Orthodox (BELIEF = 3). Due to their concentration and the history of animosity between Greeks and Turks, the group is highly cohesive (COHESX9 = 5). It should be noted that there are other Muslims in Greece, found mainly in the Dedocanese Islands, but they have assimilated into Greek culture, with only their religion being different from the majority.

The Turks have endured and continue to endure discrimination and prejudice in most aspects of life in Greece from both the government and the population as a whole. The Turks only face minimal demographic disadvantages (DEMSTR00 = 2) due to their higher birth rate compared to the Greeks, but there are problems in the number of people moving from the country to urban areas. There is also the problem of the Greek government making it easy for Greeks to obtain land from Turks mainly through providing low interest loans to Greeks who buy Muslim land (usually at a very generous price) but there are also restrictions on the purchase and sale of property by Turks. It must be acknowledged that there appears to be a movement to improve the lot of the Turks, and there have been remedial policies in some areas. One of these areas is in the political arena, where the Turks have faced a history of social discrimination and restrictions (POLDIS00 = 3). Today, while Turks do play an important role in local politics in western Thrace, their participation in national politics is limited. While Islamic candidates are generally on the ballots of the major parties, few of them are elected. In reality Turks are restricted from obtaining high office do to prejudice on behalf of the Greek people. All citizens in Greece must have their religious affiliation on their identification, which makes the Turks easily identifiable, and a target for discrimination. There are also social restrictions on Turks gaining employment in the police force and in the military. Culturally, there has also been a considerable amount of neglect for Greece's Mosques which have been allowed to deteriorate and many have been converted for other uses. Also, the Greek government retains and exercises the right to appoint the official religious leaders of its Islamic population. The group also faces discrimination in education. It is difficult to get teachers who are trained who can teach in the Turkish schools, and the Turkish students are not allowed to learn Greek, which hurts them economically. There are allegations of discrimination in entry to universities by non-Greek speakers. Also, there are allegations that the Greeks obstruct the entry of teachers and educational materials from Turkey as well as what is considered to be the unjust closings of primary schools in several villages. The discrimination against the group economically is due to social exclusion by the Greek majority (ECODIS00 = 3). The Turks are denied jobs, and other economic opportunities because they are Turkish, and as a result they are excluded from the economy. There is informal discrimination in the obtaining of building permits, tractor licenses and other documents necessary to start and/or run a small business or exercise certain professions. Basic services in Turkish areas are also insufficient. The Turks face governmental repression in the form of police surveillance. Fortunately there have not been reports recently of inter-group conflict between the Greeks and the Turks, which has occurred in the past (COMCON00 = 0), ranging from riots in the streets to Muslim homes and businesses being destroyed.

The Turks are not represented by any organizations within Greece. Turkish politicians can be found in most of the major political parties, and they as individuals have attempted to advocate for the group. As well, the Turkish government has provided encouragement and pressure on the Greek government over the Turks treatment. Other non-governmental organizations such as Human Rights Watch also monitor the Turks situation and disseminate information.

The group demands greater participation in politics at the state level, as very few Turk politicians are elected to office compared to their population. The group also is demanding equal rights with the rest of the Greek population, which would include improvements to infrastructure in Turkish areas, and an end to the policy of helping Greeks in obtaining Turk land. A main concern as mentioned above is the improvement in the educational system and allowing Turks to learn Greek in schools, so that the Turks can compete with Greeks for better paying jobs, and improve their economic opportunities. Finally, as a religious minority in an historically hostile environment, the group wants to ensure the protection of their culture and way of life.

Considering that the Turks have been in the region for a long period it is somewhat surprising that the first organized protests did not occur until the late 1980's (PROT85X = 3). Since then the group has continued to lobby the government, although without any organizations, this protest has usually taken the form of verbal opposition, which is rarely reported in the media (PROT00 = 2). Only in 1995 was there ever any activity which could be classified as militant (REB5 = 1) and since then no further activity has been reported. (REB00 = 0)

top

References
Couloumbis, Theodore A. The United States, Greece and Turkey: The Troubled Triangle, Praeger, 1983.

Shinn, Rinn S. Greece: A Country Study, Washington DC: American University, 1985.

US Department of State Country Report on Human Rights Practices in Greece for 1988, February 1989.

US Department of State Country Report on Human Rights Practices in Greece for 1990, February 1991.

US Department of State Country Report on Human Rights Practices in Greece for 1991, February 1992.

US Department of State Country Report on Human Rights Practices in Greece for 1993, February 1994.

US Department of State Country Report on Human Rights Practices in Greece for 1994, February 1995.

Lexis/Nexis: Reuters, 1985-1999.


----------------------------------------------------------


The TCs sufferings would at least be how much the Turks of Greece have suffered. At least...


http://www.cidcm.umd.edu/inscr/mar/asse ... upId=35001


Nothing else than "political equality" can protect TCs against economic discrimination.
User avatar
insan
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 9044
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:33 pm
Location: Somewhere in ur network. ;]

Postby -mikkie2- » Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:34 pm

..as opposed to the suffering of the Greeks in Turkey. Re, what are you talking about? The Turks of Greece have thrived when compared to the Greeks of Turkey which have been diminished to a tiny group of people in Istanbul.

I would like to see a similar report on the fate of the Greek minority in Turkey. I'm sure it would make for much worse reading.
-mikkie2-
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1298
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:11 am

Postby insan » Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:42 pm

-mikkie2- wrote:..as opposed to the suffering of the Greeks in Turkey. Re, what are you talking about? The Turks of Greece have thrived when compared to the Greeks of Turkey which have been diminished to a tiny group of people in Istanbul.

I would like to see a similar report on the fate of the Greek minority in Turkey. I'm sure it would make for much worse reading.


It's irrelevant. The thing I'm talking about is the painful future waiting TC community if majority rules.
User avatar
insan
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 9044
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:33 pm
Location: Somewhere in ur network. ;]

Postby -mikkie2- » Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:46 pm

Really? You have a crystal ball that predicts everything? Can you please tell me if I am going to be rich?

Of course the fate of the Greeks in Turkey is relevant. Why do you think we have such a fear of the Turks? Why do you think that we cannot trust them? Why do you simply ignore our perfectly valid concerns in order to further your own?
-mikkie2-
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1298
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:11 am

Postby insan » Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:57 pm

-mikkie2- wrote:Really? You have a crystal ball that predicts everything? Can you please tell me if I am going to be rich?

Of course the fate of the Greeks in Turkey is relevant. Why do you think we have such a fear of the Turks? Why do you think that we cannot trust them? Why do you simply ignore our perfectly valid concerns in order to further your own?



If this will be your concerns and fears in a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation based upon "political equality" of two communities, with the guarantorship of Greece and Turkey; why do your leadership waste its time for reunification in parameters of Annan Plan? TCs want to be "politically equals" of GC community. To the contrary of this GC community wants to be the ruler of Cyprus and treat TCs as a minority. TC community does not want to treat you as a minority. TC community wishes to have equal say ruling our common homeland. There's a huge difference between what TCs want and what GCs want. There's a huge difference between your fears/concerns and TCs fears/concerns. They are disparate.
User avatar
insan
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 9044
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:33 pm
Location: Somewhere in ur network. ;]

Postby -mikkie2- » Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:18 pm

And when have I said that I do not want political equality?

Various formulas have been mooted on this forum that are acceptable to me, yet you continue to brush me as being a person tat want to dominate the TC community!

I argue with you Insan, because sometimes you just cannot keep a consistent argument going. You fall back on your conspiracy theories whenever an argument does not go your way.
-mikkie2-
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1298
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:11 am

Postby insan » Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:47 pm

And when have I said that I do not want political equality?


We all know the differences between GC version of "political equality" and TC version of "political equality".
User avatar
insan
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 9044
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2003 11:33 pm
Location: Somewhere in ur network. ;]

Postby -mikkie2- » Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:58 pm

We all know the differences between GC version of "political equality" and TC version of "political equality".


And what exactly is that? The use of the collective 'we' is becoming very common from you. Are you now the official spokesperson for the TC's on this forum?
-mikkie2-
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1298
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:11 am

Postby Kifeas » Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:03 pm

My friend Insan,
The parallelism you are trying to extract, between what might be the situation of Muslims in Thrace and what will be the situation of TCypriots in Cyprus, should political equality –as you define it- doesn’t prevail but instead majority rule –as you believe GCypriots aspire, is totally unrelated.

First of all, why you do not choose as a better example, the situation of Kurdish people in Turkey? You will perhaps make a better impression and paint a more dramatic picture for the TCypriots. Are you afraid that you will offend the Kemalist ideals of the Turkish establishment?
Secondly, are TCypriots in any way comparable to the Thrace Muslims? TCypriots are far more educated, far more open-minded, far more Europeanised and far more progressive to remain isolated within any form of political arrangement. These people are mainly what they are because they are afraid to open up to the rest of the world and risk any influences to their cultural integrity. TCypriots are already far more cosmopolitan to be fearful of anything like that. I think you are intentionally underestimating your community’s capabilities and capacity.
Thirdly, Turkish language is already an official language in Cyprus, you have no problem having your own schools, Universities, colleges, radio and TV stations, and as far as the RoCy i.d. card is concerned, there is no mention about religion on it and it is also prohibited (thanks God,) by the constitution.

The parallelism you are trying to extract and imply is a false one, right from scratch.
User avatar
Kifeas
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 4927
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:19 am
Location: Lapithos, Kyrenia, now Pafos; Cyprus.

Postby Viewpoint » Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:11 pm

Kifeas
Thirdly, Turkish language is already an official language in Cyprus, you have no problem having your own schools, Universities, colleges, radio and TV stations,



Are you 100% sure about this?????
User avatar
Viewpoint
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 25214
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:48 pm
Location: Nicosia/Lefkosa

Next

Return to Cyprus Problem

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests